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Super M, when did the Stage II start?

K

kopeck

Member
I was wondering what year/serial number the Stage II Super Ms started?

I've sort of fallen into a 1952 Super M, which is the first year of production. I asked if the hydraulic pump was behind the distributor and the fellow said he thought it was. I didn't ask where the battery was located, that would have been a better question I guess.

Anyway, where there Stage IIs in '52?

K
 
(quoted from post at 11:00:06 09/04/08) NO
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Getting right to the point I guess.

I would still like to know when the break was. It's possible he's got his years mixed up.

K
 
I just got a 53 super M. Casting codes are from early march. No live power but it does have a belly pump. I just read Big book of farmall tractors and they said in late 53 they came out with live power off the cam gears, but i dont know which month casting codes those tractor would have. As the guy to find a casting code and look at the last letter X-52, Y- 53 Z-54
 
kopeck: Are you even sure there was a Stage II Super M. How about Super M and Super MTA. Stage II Super H had a 300 front bolster. Super MTA had a 400 front bolster. No Super Ms ever had that bolster.

Live hydraulics and disc brakes did not occur at model change between M and Super M. Some of the last Ms had both. I suspect when factory live hydraulics were added the battery went somewhere else.
 
Hugh you may very well be right but I do not believe any Ms or early Super Ms ever made it to cotton country with factory live hydraulics.
 
(quoted from post at 09:30:36 09/04/08) I was wondering what year/serial number the Stage II Super Ms started?

I've sort of fallen into a 1952 Super M, which is the first year of production. I asked if the hydraulic pump was behind the distributor and the fellow said he thought it was. I didn't ask where the battery was located, that would have been a better question I guess.

Anyway, where there Stage IIs in '52?

K
Click to expand...
The stage 2 super M (live hydraulics powered by pump behind distributor) came out in 1953. The serial number for the first stage 2 is shown below. Remember guys, we collectors call them by stages - not IH.

First SM Illinois Stage 2: F 28175
First SM Louisville Stage 2: L 504802
First SMD Stage 2: F 28181
First SMV Stage 2: F 28200

mike
 
(quoted from post at 17:51:18 09/04/08) I have a SM- L506874J without live Hyd power, it has a belly pump.
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Supermpuller - Yes, the Louisville SM's were wierd, at least in my opinion. An awful lot of them had belly pumps, as though many were manufactured with the live hydraulic deleted. Still, most will have the battery box under the seat and be considered stage 2's with a live hydraulic delete. mike
 
(quoted from post at 15:12:14 09/04/08) WE HAD A 52 SUPER M AND TRADED IT OFF ON A 53 SUPER M TO GET LIVE HYD.I AM SURE IT WAS 54 WHEN STAGE TWO CAME OUT.
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Donald: Guy Fay's book on the letter series farmalls explains the progression of SM stages. The "stage 3" was the Super MTA in 1954: the stage 4 ended up being the "400".
The stage 2 came out in 1953, had the battery in a box under the seat and came with live hydraulics (although it could be deleted for the old belly-pump) and had a 3-bolt starter. mike
 
(quoted from post at 17:29:29 09/04/08)
The stage 2 super M (live hydraulics powered by pump behind distributor) came out in 1953. The serial number for the first stage 2 is shown below. Remember guys, we collectors call them by stages - not IH.

First SM Illinois Stage 2: F 28175
First SM Louisville Stage 2: L 504802
First SMD Stage 2: F 28181
First SMV Stage 2: F 28200

mike
Click to expand...

Thanks Mike, that's just what I was looking for.

I have a couple of books that refer to the various stages, but never when they happened.

So:

Stage I = Super M
Stage II = Super M w/Live hydraulics & rearranged battery etc.
Stage III = 300

I've also read they had a Stage IV, which I'm assuming became the 350.

K
 
(quoted from post at 18:22:21 09/04/08)
(quoted from post at 17:29:29 09/04/08)
The stage 2 super M (live hydraulics powered by pump behind distributor) came out in 1953. The serial number for the first stage 2 is shown below. Remember guys, we collectors call them by stages - not IH.

First SM Illinois Stage 2: F 28175
First SM Louisville Stage 2: L 504802
First SMD Stage 2: F 28181
First SMV Stage 2: F 28200

mike
Click to expand...
So:

Stage I = Super M
Stage II = Super M w/Live hydraulics & rearranged battery etc.
Stage III = 300

I've also read they had a Stage IV, which I'm assuming became the 350.

K
Click to expand...
Not quite. Stage 3 was the Super MTA; Stage 4 became the 400. The 300 and the 350 were developed from the H and Super H family of tractors. mike
 
(quoted from post at 18:25:56 09/04/08)
Not quite. Stage 3 was the Super MTA; Stage 4 became the 400. The 300 and the 350 were developed from the H and Super H family of tractors. mike
Click to expand...

I'm an idiot, I knew that.

I was reading the H stuff.

so the stage IV = 400.

Sorry about that.

K
 
(quoted from post at 18:27:55 09/04/08)
(quoted from post at 18:25:56 09/04/08)
Not quite. Stage 3 was the Super MTA; Stage 4 became the 400. The 300 and the 350 were developed from the H and Super H family of tractors. mike
Click to expand...

I'm an idiot, I knew that. K
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Join the club; I'm the president! mike
 
NDS: I was a young lad 10-12 years old when the Super Hs and Ms appeared on the scene. I don't remember any Stage I or II advertized by IH. Hydraulics be they belly pump or live pump were always optional. I know of several Hs that were sold new without hydraulics of any kind. I also know of a 53 Super M sold new with no hydraulics. There is a 54 Super H not far from me, 300 type front bolster, battery under the seat and Z codes and it was bought new without the optional hydraulics. It has no hydraulics of any description, never did have from the day it was new.

I think this Stage I and II thing is something dreamed up by collectors. I never heard IH use it in any way. I knew about the SMTA, I knew about the SA1 and a Super C had optional fast hitch. So hydraulics don't dictate this Stage thing. We all know disc brakes did not occur at model change. Super H got the 300 front bolster when IH ran out of the old type casting. Probably got the battery box under ths seat when they ran out of the old stock. Super MTA occured because of demand for IPTO, there was still some M sheet metal in stock and 400 castings were ready. Super A1 occured because the the upgrades for C-123 engine were allready on the tractor. Imaginations do wonderful things.
 
(quoted from post at 18:38:27 09/04/08) NDS: I was a young lad 10-12 years old when the Super Hs and Ms appeared on the scene. I don't remember any Stage I or II advertized by IH. Hydraulics be they belly pump or live pump were always optional. I know of several Hs that were sold new without hydraulics of any kind. I also know of a 53 Super M sold new with no hydraulics. There is a 54 Super H not far from me, 300 type front bolster, battery under the seat and Z codes and it was bought new without the optional hydraulics. It has no hydraulics of any description, never did have from the day it was new.

I think this Stage I and II thing is something dreamed up by collectors. I never heard IH use it in any way. I knew about the SMTA, I knew about the SA1 and a Super C had optional fast hitch. So hydraulics don't dictate this Stage thing. We all know disc brakes did not occur at model change. Super H got the 300 front bolster when IH ran out of the old type casting. Probably got the battery box under ths seat when they ran out of the old stock. Super MTA occured because of demand for IPTO, there was still some M sheet metal in stock and 400 castings were ready. Super A1 occured because the the upgrades for C-123 engine were allready on the tractor. Imaginations do wonderful things.
Click to expand...
Hugh: Hey, ol' buddy! Everything you say is EXACTLY correct in my book. It is us collectors who call them by stages to differentiate the major changes. The Super A-1 could have just as easily been dubbed the Super A Stage 2 by collectors. But, "Legend becomes fact", as they say..... and so now the SH and SM series become known by stages, although IH never used the term. Hello to Marg. mike
 
(quoted from post at 18:38:27 09/04/08) NDS: I was a young lad 10-12 years old when the Super Hs and Ms appeared on the scene. I don't remember any Stage I or II advertized by IH. Hydraulics be they belly pump or live pump were always optional. I know of several Hs that were sold new without hydraulics of any kind. I also know of a 53 Super M sold new with no hydraulics. There is a 54 Super H not far from me, 300 type front bolster, battery under the seat and Z codes and it was bought new without the optional hydraulics. It has no hydraulics of any description, never did have from the day it was new.

I think this Stage I and II thing is something dreamed up by collectors. I never heard IH use it in any way. I knew about the SMTA, I knew about the SA1 and a Super C had optional fast hitch. So hydraulics don't dictate this Stage thing. We all know disc brakes did not occur at model change. Super H got the 300 front bolster when IH ran out of the old type casting. Probably got the battery box under ths seat when they ran out of the old stock. Super MTA occured because of demand for IPTO, there was still some M sheet metal in stock and 400 castings were ready. Super A1 occured because the the upgrades for C-123 engine were allready on the tractor. Imaginations do wonderful things.
Click to expand...


I don't think it was ever advertised as "Stage I, Stage II", it was the various stages that IH engineers used to upgrade the line as time went on.

They had milked the H & M for many years, they wanted to update it but War and other factors stopped them. They had a plan, they just needed to start it. So then came the Supers, which then just kept evolving in various Stages.

K
 
It isn't something dreamed up by collectors. IH internal documentation discusses the stages, although they never used it in advertising. I've only seen it used in the H and M series tractors, never in advertising (in fact, it would have been a bad idea to use it in advertising, making farmers wonder what was next and should they wait for the next stage).
 
(quoted from post at 19:13:34 09/04/08) It isn't something dreamed up by collectors. IH internal documentation discusses the stages, although they never used it in advertising. I've only seen it used in the H and M series tractors, never in advertising (in fact, it would have been a bad idea to use it in advertising, making farmers wonder what was next and should they wait for the next stage).
Click to expand...

I was just debating quoting your book ([u:fe3eca7138]Farmall Tractors in the 1950s[/u:fe3eca7138]), now I don't have to cite it. :p

Thanks,

K
 
kopeck: we all know how brilliant the engineers at IH were. Cockshutt and Oliver had be selling IPTO, 8 years when the SMTA appeared on the scene.

Have a little story for you. Canibul lady went to the butcher shop, wanted a pound of brains. Butcher said, "we have oridinary brains $1. per # and engineer brains, $10. per #." The customer figured this was ridiculous, engineer brains were not worth $10 per #. Butcher said, "Lady if you onlt knew how many engineers we have to catch for a # of brains, you would begrudge us the $10."

Actually when I first heard that ECONOMISTS were tha subject of discussion.
 
(quoted from post at 19:16:39 09/04/08) kopeck: we all know how brilliant the engineers at IH were. Cockshutt and Oliver had be selling IPTO, 8 years when the SMTA appeared on the scene.

Have a little story for you. Canibul lady went to the butcher shop, wanted a pound of brains. Butcher said, "we have oridinary brains $1. per # and engineer brains, $10. per #." The customer figured this was ridiculous, engineer brains were not worth $10 per #. Butcher said, "Lady if you onlt knew how many engineers we have to catch for a # of brains, you would begrudge us the $10."

Actually when I first heard that ECONOMISTS were tha subject of discussion.
Click to expand...

Heh, I like that.

You are right though, the fact that it took them so long to start putting IPTOs on tractors must have been (and still is) frustrating. It's a feature with such obvious upside. That and they're smaller tractors never got the IPTO treatment.

K
 
I have a 1953 SM serial F-27826J without live hydraulics.
I also have a 1953 SM serial F-41986J with live hydraulics.
 
The first Stage II SM I ever heard of was in the spring of 1953. (Of course no one called it a Stage II; it was just an SM with live hydraulics). A neighbor of ours ordered a new SM. Before he took delivery of it, the dealer got in another new SM with factory live hydraulics (had to be a Stage II). The dealer told one of his employees to "get that thing out of here" before Elmer (our neighbor) sees it. My dad witnessed this and I overheard him talking about it. I was 9 at the time and this occurred in southeast Iowa.
 
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