Speakin' of plowing and tires ? for all master plowmen

To all Master Plowmen.

(And anyone else that has had good or bad experiences plowing)
(I posted this on Implement Alley also)

This question has been bugging me since I started plowing a few years ago. How does rear tire size and furrow width correlate? Example-- My bigger tractor (1755 Oliver) has 18.4-34 rears on it and I pull a 16" four furrow plow. So the tire is about 2-1/2" wider than the furrow. Given a small amount of space for steering and sidewall clearance, say 1" on the land side of the furrow that makes 3.5" of plowed ground I'm re-compacting with the rear tire on every fourth furrow. Isn't this counter-productive? Not to mention making it hard to set up the combination to plow correctly ?

So the question's are-- Is it better to plow with a plow that has a furrow width greater than the rear tires or doesn't it matter to anyone? In my case it would have to be a minimum of 18" bottoms with 20" preferred?

The reason I ask is I'm going to be looking for good used tires for my M this year and since I have 14" and 16" plows to use with it will it make a difference as to whether I find /look for 15.5's, 14.9's or stick with 13.6's? My plows are two three bottom 16" #8's or a three bottom 14" JD. I have a four bottom 14" #8 but I've been told a M won't pull it which I totally agree with since I pull a 4-16" with my 1755 Oliver and have hit the occasional hard spot that made it grunt.

Any thoughts on tire width vs traction vs bottom width would be helpful.

What's the expert opinions here?

The factory equipped the tractor with 13.6's for a reason I guess. But is that reason relevant any more? Aren't traction and flotation King now?

Thanks for the help! ...Randy

Randy,
I am a firm believer that the rear tractor tire does NOT belong in the furrow for ANY reason. Tractor tires and drawbars and plow tires and plow linkage can all be adjusted for any setup so as to not have a tractor tire running in a furrow.
I have been conventional plowing for many years and every setup I have used from AC B, JDA, Farmall H and currently a Case 1030 I have never had a rear wheel running in a furrow. The tractor should set up straight and level for max efficient.
On my current Case 1030 I have wide 23.1x30 rears set in close. I am pulling a JD 640 4x16 trailer plow with a 60 inch sodbuster behind. I am plowing every kind of ground you can think of from grey loom to red clay. I have had more than one fellow stop by to tell me they have never seen anyone plow so smooth.
I have my rears set narrow and the drawbar set all the way to the right. I set the plow tongue to the left and set the angle brace so the plow pulls true and straight. My tractor always sets level on new ground making driving a lot more pleasant.
Everyone has there own opinion but I gaurantee noone will ever change my mind on this one. At least give it a try and make up your own mind.
Good Luck,
Dell

I tend to agree with Dellbert (but the world is not ideal)
I believe the compaction issue is un important in the sense that tillage with full pressure contact will be following the moldboard plowing, as such it is not statistically important.
Several tractor/plow combos will be difficult to set up (maybe impossible on some) with the wheel on unplowed land. Fast hitch plow on a 350U comes to mind.
But the concept is worth two thoughts: one is the possible increase in tractive efficiency with both tires on the surface, and no CG tilt to the tractor.
The second is the natural steering that keeps things straight with a wheel or two in the furrow. Constant attention to location might be more wearing on the operator. I have never had a tractor that was set to plow W/both wheels up. so the last is conjecture. JimN

Randy, my Dad has been plowing with a 20.8x38 in a 16" furrow for almost 30 years now, and I don't think he's given it a second thought. The amount of ground compacted is minimal in my observation, and the compaction is nowhere near what it was before plowing. You'll do a lot more compaction fitting the field up for planting.

Working with an "on land" setup as Dellbertt describes is certainly more comfortable, but not always possible. A plow is one of the heaviest loads you can put on a tractor, and when you're working the tractor to its limit, it becomes absolutely critical to have the plow hitched properly behind the tractor so that the tractor will pull the plow efficiently.

If you're not pulling the maximum plow behind the tractor, such as only 2 bottoms behind an M, you can do as Dellbertt describes because the tractor has plenty of power and weight to deal with the load being offset to one side like that. Put a 3 bottom plow offset like that, and the M will not drive straight, and you may not even be able to plow effectively.

Another thing to consider here is actual tire width... does the 18.4 actually have that much on the ground... I remember when they started the new numbering system... 12" became 13.6, 13" became 15.5, etc... were the new numbers the "actual" width?
I would also think it hard to set up some plows to pull right "on land"... it can't be good to have your tractor drawbar locked over to one side and still pull straight.

Randy: Your 18.4 tires should work well with 16" bottoms. 18" is not the width of that tire. Are you saying your tramping landside of furrow with inside of tire? That being the case set wheel tread 4" wider. It should work well.

Either 14.9 or 15.5 should work well with 14" bottoms. There are thousands of plows working on both examples with no problems.

I don't know where you're at but around home, there's places that we would never get turned if it weren't for having the tires down in the furow on solid ground. Once I got the 7580 I never would have kept the plows where they needed to be with a land hitch, that thing would not turn out of a furrow or rut in soft ground all dualed up (18.4-38s). Both the 10s and the 1566 ran 20.8-38s and they ran down the furrow with some space to spare pulling a 6-16 white ARS. My uncle pulled a set of land hitch with the 3788 all dualed up one year and liked it but I never got to pull them. I sat half turned in the seat plowing so the tilt didn't make much difference to me.

And that 7580 would pull the plows through mud where the front bottom would be the only one not in the ground, with them clear raised, with them lousy dyna-torque goodyear bias plies that were ready to be replaced.

Randy, I'm not a "master plowman", in fact I now only plow to fireguard fields for burning, but I was shown to run the tire in the furrow.
Steering tire runs in the furrow, giving you old school "auto steer". Just as any other practise, others have their own method. Squishing one furrow with your tire is pretty irrelevant since you'll need to disc or cultivate at least a pass or two before you have any kind of seed bed.

I agree with most of these replies, just go out and enjoy plowing with that Oliver.

With all due respect for Dellbert, I never saw a tractor with both rear wheels onland pulling a plow until in the late 1950s or early 1960s, when I saw some big diesel job with a 5-6 bottom plow (which my grandfather could not have imagined ever being invented). For more background to my olden days (I'm 72 yrs young), go to Wis. Hist. Soc. webpage and dig thru the IH pages and you will see an IH employee driving a new H with a 2 bottom #8 and the right rear wheel is in the furrow at the IH test farm near Hinsdale, Illinois.
Dellbert, I think you are from Iowa? I was raised in Grundy Co, Iowa, and if you hooked up an H to a 2 bottom, or an M to a 3 bottom, then adjusted the hitch so you could plow that heavy black soil with both rears onland, it would have been fun to watch the driver trying to steer left enough to keep the tractor going straight ahead, and not riding the left brake all day long to help. And...if you look at the owner's manual for setting up the #8 hitch, and you modify it to make it work for online, that plow will follow you like our dog trotted, slightly out of line.
However, I have seen pictures of the western boys years ago pulling their plows onland, but I think those plows had disks instead of moldboards (you western guys join in here), and they did not plow as deep (for wheat, barley?)as we did in the midwest for corn and soybeans.

We now have plow days with tractors 1959 and older, and I wouldn't have the nerve to try plowing with both wheels of my H onland...I would be accused of assaulting them...causing injuries from excessive laughter.
LA in WI

In my opinion "squishing" of the turned furrow does matter if the soil isn't dry. Plowing reduces the soil's bulk density and if you don't allow it to dry before secondary tillage you can lose all of this benefit at least in this squished area. Will agree that any secondary tillage also increases the bulk density, but the goal should be not to return to the original state. If the soil is completely or nearly dry or primarily consists of sand it doesn't make any difference.

Very interesting topic!

Remember the "18.4 " is not the tread width of the tire, but the section width... the width of the carcass from outer sidewall to outer sidewall. I just went and measured a used 18.4 and the actual tread with is about 2 inches less. Oddly, they don't list tread width for tractor tires in the specs as they do with passenger vehicle tires.

When I first started plowing (not all that long ago, as Hugh MacKay will recall because he helped me get the right setups) I tried plowing with a wheel out of the furrow... out of ignorance more than design. Couldn't do it. I was using my little 2810 with a 2-14 and had chloride in the tires as well as some iron strapped on. Couldn't keep the tractor going straight and my first furrows looked like a drunk was at the wheel. Somebody here pointed out... "Hey Jim... ahhh... you want that left tire IN the furrow." I think I could probably make it work now, but why. I can get my 826 set to walk down that furrow straight with my hands off the wheel. I think compaction is an important consideration but maybe it's sometimes outweighed by other factors. But then, what the heck do I know.

I plowed every field with 18.4 and 4-14 plow. Once you go over the ground whether seeding or what ever you will never find the tire mark.

I am learning a lot on this subject also but here are a few things you can check on. Finding the centerline of the draft,Checking on the hitch settings and there is an art to that!, making sure all shares are cutting the same amount of width, making sure they are all going the same depth. Just because you have a center hole in the drawbar doesn't mean that is where you put the clevis. You can go out and plow one strip and then come back and start the second one and stop, get a shovel and dig out around the plow to see what it is acually doing. Your tire should not rub the side of the furrow but clear it about an inch or so, if it rubs that causes sidewall wear. Also If the tire is flattening the soil you just turned,(and you have that 1 inch clearance) then the tires are too wide for the shares. Remember this, the wider the tire, the less LBS per sqare inch you have on the tread patch, the less weight per Square inch the more slippage. On the other hand if you have wet conditions the wider may be better but you shouldn't be plowing when it is like that. Keep at it and if you get to a plow day, ask an old timer! Some of those guys sure helped me out.