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Sleeve retainer goop post #2

E

Ernest

Member
I hear the pros and cons of it.

A question for tractor vet...If yo seen so many sleeves meet the crank, did these sleeves have goop on them OR were they just hanging out loose in the block?

Why would caseIH have a product especially for loose sleeves? Part# ZPX62036

Also the companies who make this stuff permatex or loctite claim you can glue in valve seats.
 
Why did these sleeves break ???? From being to loose in the block , Some due to the fact that someone rebuilt the engine and they did not Mic the holes and the new sleeves and just stuffed them in figureing that the head would hold them down . Core shift in the block over time they do shift. crack what ever and they can start ti move and moven will cause ware . Could be that at one time during a rebuild someone ran a hone down that hole to clean it up a bit and that one sleeve was machined different the block could have been machined a bit tofar . Hello there are probably 50000 reasons that this happened . And as to why Case I H has the GUPPY GU is be cause they make money selling it as they do not make it them selfs . When i started working on Engines we did not have GUPPY GU we had Permatex #1 ,#2 #3 , and Indain head gskt cement . and Bar's leak Oh and Copper coat . No Dr. Blue or Black or what ever . If a part did not fit you made it fit with machining . You did not look for the magic jenny in the tube or bottle . Oh BTW Case I H does not even make there own sleeves and pistons anymore it is who ever bids the lowest .
 
Personally I hate loose sleeeves. I honed many a block to install .002 sleeves so they fit nice and tight. However, a lot of the diesel engines came new pretty darn loose. When the 560 came out, many had leaking head gaskets so we had to pull several heads. A lot of the time I would stick my hand in cyl, make a fist, turn engine and sleeve would move up so as I could add shims under flange. Also, on the 450 diesel, they had the thin sleeve from factory and were a slip fit. Most didn't give trouble, of course some did. I guess what I am getting at is if you cannot get ahold of a slightly over size sleeve, don't have the option of having a sleeve made for it, don't use it for your long hours of heavy work, I wouldn't be too worried about using some loctite on it . Of course, I don't have to warranty any work I do from my chair on the computer.
 
Ernest, why don't you give the glue a try and report back to us on how it works out for you? That's the only way to prove that there's more than one "right" way of doing things, though the real old schoolers will just say you got lucky.

If the fit is as you say, a tight "slip" fit with no play, then a little adhesive applied per the instructions should work just fine for you.

It's certainly more productive than antagonizing tractor vet...
 
Hey it is no skin off my nose or knuckles as like Pete said we don't have to stand behind it . when i do work for someone and i do not do it correctly then i have to eat it and the repairs come out of my pocket . Also if i tell someone to fudge the job and they do it and it goes wrong for what ever reason then i am a no good SOB and the whole world knows it . You can do 25000 prefect jobs and not many ever hear about it but do just one little job that goes south and everybody hears about it.
 
Thanks tractor vet. You answered my question. You seen many sleeves meet the crank.....I know there may be 50,000 different ways it may have happened. I was only curious as if you ran across any with goop in and left loose or the heat got to it and cracked it. I did not come here looking for an argument.
 
I was only curious as if you ran across any with goop in and left loose or the heat got to it and cracked it. I did not come here looking for an argument. Its just sometimes when questions are ask generic answers are given.
 
Just looking for experience here something you cannot get from the guy behind the counter selling the stuff! I am at a loss here as what to do. Making money on this tractor is not job #1. I could care less about that. Its been in my family since nearly new back in 1952! I have a hard time believing the glue will work for a long period of time without breaking down. It only says sleeve retainer.....Does not distinguish between engine piston sleeves, transmission sleeves, or kitchen faucet sleeves! Talked to several dealers and no larger sleeves available, talked to the company (red power) the sleeves came from...they only make 1 size! One local shop is out of business, next is sloppy on work, next is gonna price themselves out of business!

Somehow I will figure this out!
Thanks!
 
(quoted from post at 11:55:56 03/16/10) Just looking for experience here something you cannot get from the guy behind the counter selling the stuff! I am at a loss here as what to do. Making money on this tractor is not job #1. I could care less about that. Its been in my family since nearly new back in 1952! I have a hard time believing the glue will work for a long period of time without breaking down. It only says sleeve retainer.....Does not distinguish between engine piston sleeves, transmission sleeves, or kitchen faucet sleeves! Talked to several dealers and no larger sleeves available, talked to the company (red power) the sleeves came from...they only make 1 size! One local shop is out of business, next is sloppy on work, next is gonna price themselves out of business!

Somehow I will figure this out!
Thanks!
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Could you TIG weld a small bead or three around the sleeve and then turn it down to the right spec?
How in the world do you do it the "rightest" way if there is only one size sleeve available as of 2010? I guess it seems like everybody knows the best way to do it, but that doesn't seem 100% possible/cost prohibitive.
You could always have someone machine a different sleeve, but you would probably be better to buy a new motor and try again. You could always say to heck with the sleeves and run them in the big hole!!! You could also run Super M sleeves and have the holes opened up bigger and bigger until you get the perfect fit.
 

Somewhere on here there was a thread where someone had a loose sleeve in an H and they successfully used some version of RTV to get it to stick in place. I don't know about the long term but I would imagine a product like this would seem to be functional
 
If it was a engine I thought a lot of or had to warranty I would want it right. That said I have saw several at tear down with a slip fit that had run for years. On your type engine using thin wall sleeves seems like as many problems happen by driving the thin wall sleeves in a dirty, warped or to tight of bore as a slip fit does. Thin wall sleeves depend on the parent bore being pretty true. Some thinwall sleeve instructions called for the sleeve to slide in by hand 1/2 to 3/4 of the way. Personaly I think the best way on a SM gas is a light press fit all the way and then check with a bore gage.
 
Well it is like this when they got to me with a sleeve sucked down into the pan and the piston run up[ and down the walls till they got it shut down it is sorta hard to tell as the damage is bad . And there is no honing or magic cure all that will heal it . And the only way i have to get it back running is to send the block out and have it bored and sleeved then rebored and put a new sleeve and piston in it . Myself Pete and Owen try our best to help the guys that are new to this and want to make a old tractor live again . I myself use vary little stuff that comes in a tube or bottle . Permatex Copper coat and every so often Dr. Blue or Dr. Black and when i do use it it is vary spareingly . Long time ago a wise man told me that it only costs a buck more to go first class and if a job is worth doing it is worth doing wright the first time .As if you do not have the time to do it wright the first time you will not have the time the second time around .
 
(quoted from post at 14:10:52 03/16/10) Well it is like this when they got to me with a sleeve sucked down into the pan and the piston run up[ and down the walls till they got it shut down it is sorta hard to tell as the damage is bad . And there is no honing or magic cure all that will heal it . And the only way i have to get it back running is to send the block out and have it bored and sleeved then rebored and put a new sleeve and piston in it . Myself Pete and Owen try our best to help the guys that are new to this and want to make a old tractor live again . I myself use vary little stuff that comes in a tube or bottle . Permatex Copper coat and every so often Dr. Blue or Dr. Black and when i do use it it is vary spareingly . Long time ago a wise man told me that it only costs a buck more to go first class and if a job is worth doing it is worth doing wright the first time .As if you do not have the time to do it wright the first time you will not have the time the second time around .
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So how does he do it right the first time?
 
I covered that before . you eiher get a oversized sleeve and hone to fit or you bore the block and press in a repair sleeve and re bore it to take the OEm sleeve . Also like i said BEFORE YOU BUY YOUR SLEEVE KITS MIC. the BLOCK and also look for any letters stamped next to the hole for bore classification .
 
(quoted from post at 14:32:04 03/16/10) I covered that before . you either get a oversized sleeve and hone to fit or you bore the block and press in a repair sleeve and re bore it to take the OEm sleeve . Also like i said BEFORE YOU BUY YOUR SLEEVE KITS MIC. the BLOCK and also look for any letters stamped next to the hole for bore classification .
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You last statement is what brought the confusion. In both this thread and his last one he and others said most of the aftermarket companies only have one sleeve size available. In a perfect world all four sizes would be available and when you ordered a kit you would give them your four letters/hole size and get the perfect kit.

Where does he go to get an oversized sleeve? So when using a repair sleeve he would have a regular sleeve inside a repair sleeve inside the block? Would Super M sleeves be a reasonable fix?
 
I talked to a local machine shop today! Basically tear the engine down to bare block, haul it to them, with an old sleeve. This is where they lost me, They will bore the bad hole out, press the old sleeve in (which is already too small) then bore it out again to accept the good new sleeve! Crazy! Just crazy! This is what I mean I cannot be the only guy who has ever went through this and it should be simpler. I also found some places that make custom sleeves and I guess I will have to mic it out and send the specs to them and see what they want to make one.

Plus now reading the replies here, if it was not a family tractor I"d scrap it out rather than go through the frustration of how to do one sleeve! Yes its all my fault, like I said I should have left well enough alone and got new pistons and rings, and honed the old sleeves.
Thanks for all your replies!
 
(quoted from post at 16:21:01 03/16/10) I talked to a local machine shop today! Basically tear the engine down to bare block, haul it to them, with an old sleeve. This is where they lost me, They will bore the bad hole out, press the old sleeve in (which is already too small) then bore it out again to accept the good new sleeve! Crazy! Just crazy! This is what I mean I cannot be the only guy who has ever went through this and it should be simpler. I also found some places that make custom sleeves and I guess I will have to mic it out and send the specs to them and see what they want to make one.

Plus now reading the replies here, if it was not a family tractor I"d scrap it out rather than go through the frustration of how to do one sleeve! Yes its all my fault, like I said I should have left well enough alone and got new pistons and rings, and honed the old sleeves.
Thanks for all your replies!
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You would think getting new sleeves would be "the right" way.
 
You didn't understand what the machinist tried to tell you. He needs the diameter of an old or new sleeve to get the right sized repair sleeve. The block is bored out to press in the repair sleeve that has an interferance fit. (tight). Then the inside of the repair sleeve is bored to the same or a thousand or two press fit of the OD of the sleeve the piston runs in. Understand? If it was my own I know I will never wear it out in my lifetime so I would bore the repair sleeve to fit the piston & run it.That way the repair sleeve doesn't need to be as big either.
 
Bottom line is that if the parent bore is true and not more than a couple of thousandths "out of spec" the Loctite stuff will retain the sleeve without problems for more time than most of us have left here on this earth!
 
Boy, you know, if you didn't already have the sleeve and piston kit, it would be soooooooo simple to just have the block bored for Super M sleeves.
 
(quoted from post at 05:14:07 03/17/10) Boy, you know, if you didn't already have the sleeve and piston kit, it would be soooooooo simple to just have the block bored for Super M sleeves.
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There is always the classifieds :D Maybe they would return them bc they didn't fit?
 
All of you are getting your nnalert in a wad for nothing. I have used loctite sleeve retaining compound on dozens of loose sleeves and never had one come back. Honing your old worn out sleeves and reringing them would be the biggest half azz job you could do.If you don't like the idea of glueing the sleeve in take it to an automotive machine shop and get a repair sleeve put in it. This is not rocket science,it has been done since Henry Ford days. I rebuild 2 or 3 engines a month and have to warrenty my work. There are lots of ways to do things,it just depends on how much money you want to spend.
 
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