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My Electrical Stupidity

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ste_fano

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My 154 cub lo boy wouldnt start. I checked the coil, faint spark. Tried another coil, faint spark. Battery was good. Dist was wet inside. Dried it out, fired right up. Had a strong spark from the coil. Why was the coil wire spark weak?
I thought it brought power to the dist first, so the dist wetness wouldnt matter.What is the power theory? I just finished a manual trans class at the Junior College, need to take an electical one next! lol Thanks, Steve
 
What is the power theory? Here's a basic diagram of how ignition coil/distributor circuit works.
a20701.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 12:47:21 08/21/10) That green arrow at the condenser ground shouldn't be there. That would show a shorted condenser & no spark.
Click to expand...
OH! There is current flowing through the condenser alright. It isn't DC, but AC current. It is entirely measurable.
 
Not sure I understand your "arrow" comment, but rememebr a discharged condensor right at T = 0+ willlllllllll briefly conduct current until the condensor becomes charged, after which time it then appears as an open circuit to further DC.

It serves two purposes, it prolongs the life of the points plus enhances the spark provided its the correct size. If its too small she will still spark (albeit weaker) and the points will burn up sooner, but if its too big she wont spark.

best wishes

John T
 
It flows into it up to it's capacity, but it doesn't flow through. If it flows through it is called a leaky condenser which will not cause the coil to ring like a bell & produce a number of sparks. But they are so close together they seem like one. I have a tester & find many leaky ones, even new ones are sometimes leaky. Then the old condenser may be better than the new.
 
(quoted from post at 18:23:04 08/21/10) It flows into it up to it's capacity, but it doesn't flow through. If it flows through it is called a leaky condenser which will not cause the coil to ring like a bell & produce a number of sparks. But they are so close together they seem like one. I have a tester & find many leaky ones, even new ones are sometimes leaky. Then the old condenser may be better than the new.
Click to expand...
urrent does NOT flow down a wire or into a capacitor/condenser DEAD END.......it MUST have a loop, a complete circuit or there is no current flow.
 
"Dist was wet inside." The moisture shorted the power off to ground.
Check the inside of the cap and you'll probably see a 'spider web' of arcing tracks. It's a common problem in old caps and wet climates.
 
The tester I have flashes when connected to the wire & body of a condenser. It will only flash once on a good condenser. If it flashes over and over again, the condenser is leaking. If it continues to glow , the condenser is shorted. There is a flow or the bulb wouldn't flash. A good ohm meter will deflect the needle too when first hooked up. If you ever test a large oil - filled motor capacitor you will see a large flow until it's capacity is reached.
 
(quoted from post at 21:54:59 08/21/10) The tester I have flashes when connected to the wire & body of a condenser. It will only flash once on a good condenser. If it flashes over and over again, the condenser is leaking. If it continues to glow , the condenser is shorted. There is a flow or the bulb wouldn't flash. A good ohm meter will deflect the needle too when first hooked up. If you ever test a large oil - filled motor capacitor you will see a large flow until it's capacity is reached.
Click to expand...
So then you no longer have a problem with the green arrow. Good.
 
With respect, Current will assuredly flow into a capacitor. (a friend and I put 12 3500uFD caps in series for 500volt capacity. It took 4 hours to charge. taking current to the limit of our 3 amp supply) We discharged it (wrong move) through a home made device and #10 wires) everything evaporated into a plasma, including the screw terminals on the caps. It also took about 4 hours for our hearing to get some what normal. Jim
 
The text is wrong too where it says the coil primary energy collapses back through the condenser. When the points open, the collapse hits the condenser & bounces like a rubber ball. It does NOT flow through.
 
(quoted from post at 00:05:20 08/22/10) The text is wrong too where it says the coil primary energy collapses back through the condenser. When the points open, the collapse hits the condenser & bounces like a rubber ball. It does NOT flow through.
Click to expand...
n the world of electronics there are no bouncing rubber balls or electrons hitting condensers & bouncing off. Open up a bit and you might ultimately gain some real understanding of how things work. Remain closed, with a mind like concrete, all mixed up and permanently set and you won't. When you are in a hole, the first thing to to is stop digging yourself in deeper. I personally don't care if you gain knowledge or not, but there is no need in trying to fill others heads with your bogus ideas & declaring their good information as bad, just because it doesn't agree with your long held, simple minded, preconceived notions of how something works. You just keep on keeping on and we will try to ignore you. :wink:
 
It seems to me that you are the one that needs to learn. Looking at the rest of the posts, Bob and John T agree with me.
 
I never did anything that extreme. If JMORE was here I would like to toss him a few condensers that are charged & he will find out the current didn't flow through them, but came back out to bite his hand.
 
Maybe they agree with you looking thru your narrow view, but if you read what both said very carefully, you will see that they do not. My money says that you can't get them to , without caveats, say, "I agree with teddy that no current flows thru the condenser".
 
With respect-Teddy is correct. Condensers build charge on surfaces held apart by a dielectric insulator. As one side becomes more positive, the other drags electrons into it from its circuit connection to balance the Positive holes. There is current flow in each "wire" connected to the condenser (capacitor). The flow is in opposite directions however. Thus the green arrow on the diagram should be pointing up! to be correct. The only three conditions under which a capacitor will not conduct are an internal open condition to one of the plates, being disconnected from a circuit on one end or the other, or when it is charged to the maximum for the circuit it is connected to (and if it leaks, it will conduct then!) Jim
 
No current flows through a condenser/capacitor. (through meaning in one lead and out the other.) If it does it is leaky and has had the dielectric broken down, or perforated
Jim
 
The following scope patterns illustrate our point, the intermediate pattern, after the firing line extinguishes, is a trace of the energy in the coil dissipating through resistance/heat as the current charges and discharges (oscillates) into and out of the condenser. Not through it! With respect, Jim
PPT of issue Look at 8 7
 
(quoted from post at 11:06:37 08/22/10) No current flows through a condenser/capacitor. (through meaning in one lead and out the other.) If it does it is leaky and has had the dielectric broken down, or perforated
Jim
Click to expand...
im, I have read enough of your postings over the years to know that you know that in order for a capacitor to charge or discharge, that current must flow in one lead and out the other. Take your dozen caps charged to 500 volts & then shorted for example...where do you suppose the current flow was that created the arc/plasma that hurt your ears? Going beyond that, in the run caps on an electric motor...why are they physically so big, compared to filter caps of same MMF & voltage rating? Because they are passing current all the time the motor is running. That is the same reason run caps are larger than the starting caps on such motors..........current carrying capacity. Further, back to the ignition, because I expect the "DC VS AC argument next, look at these ignition scope pictures.........

Imge1.jpg

full_cycle_withcurrent_sml.jpg


atpointopening.jpg

.....surely, (and that's not Shirley) with all the hundreds of volts of oscillations/ringing going on it both the primary and secondary, you can't possibly deny that there is current passing through that condenser?
 
If it flowed through, it would short out and it wouldn't osillate (sp) or ring. You can prove this to yourself. Using an ohmmeter find a condenser that has continuity (flows through) & put it in an ign system. You will have little or no spark. Then try a good one that shows no continuity & it will give a hot spark.
 
(quoted from post at 11:46:47 08/22/10) The following scope patterns illustrate our point, the intermediate pattern, after the firing line extinguishes, is a trace of the energy in the coil dissipating through resistance/heat as the current charges and discharges (oscillates) into and out of the condenser. Not through it! With respect, Jim
PPT of issue Look at 8 7
Click to expand...
f no current ever passes through the capacitor, then don't even connect a current carrying conductor to it!!! Go put a clamp on amp probe on it for Christ sake and measure it! Unbelievable!

Make it real simple: connect a capacitor, an ammeter (ma scale) and a battery in a series loop...if the ammeter needle jumps when you connect & reverse connect the battery, then you will have observed current flowing THROUGH the capacitor and you WILL observe that.

Charge on a capacitor is Coulombs. Current is Coulombs per second. No current flow??? Current only flows in a closed loop.
 
With a wet distributor cap or rotor insulation material, high-voltage energy from the coil's field collapse as the points opened was being lost through a water path on the distributor cap or rotor insulator surfaces to ground. As a result, high voltage from the coil secondary could never rise enough to jump the distributor rotor plus the spark plug tandem gaps. Wet surfaces conduct high voltages very well.

A persistant arc across an insulator will eventually create a carbonized path that makes the part unusable unless the carbon can be removed (Carbon tracks). A tempoary fix, that sometimes will work is to scrape the carbonized material off. BTDT
 
Other than a few tunneling electrons (Heisenberg's uncertainty principle) There is not one electron flowing out of a capacitor that flowed into it when charged. It is just not optional, The electrons that leave on the positive side when charging electrons into the negative side do flow out. (as indicated in posts below!) The electrons that vaporized my wires in the story were rushing back into Holes, not passing through the dielectric.

Capacitor start electric motors use capacitors to cause phase lag in the field windings. this lag causes dramatic torque to be generated, and dramatic amps to be drawn. The energy is given back to the windings without going "through" the cap, It is discharged into the circuit where the normal 60Hz voltage would be going back to Zero. This cannot be sustained as it would burn out the windings, but it creates high torque. A governor then snaps the capacitors out of the system allowing normal ac operation. Run capacitors are also used to cause tailored phase change in motors (especially high output heavy duty (well cooled) motors. Again the caps do not pass current through them ever. If any mass of electrons pass ---through--- a capacitor it is broken. Jim
 
(quoted from post at 19:13:46 08/22/10) Other than a few tunneling electrons (Heisenberg's uncertainty principle) There is not one electron flowing out of a capacitor that flowed into it when charged. It is just not optional, The electrons that leave on the positive side when charging electrons into the negative side do flow out. (as indicated in posts below!) The electrons that vaporized my wires in the story were rushing back into Holes, not passing through the dielectric.

Capacitor start electric motors use capacitors to cause phase lag in the field windings. this lag causes dramatic torque to be generated, and dramatic amps to be drawn. The energy is given back to the windings without going "through" the cap, It is discharged into the circuit where the normal 60Hz voltage would be going back to Zero. This cannot be sustained as it would burn out the windings, but it creates high torque. A governor then snaps the capacitors out of the system allowing normal ac operation. Run capacitors are also used to cause tailored phase change in motors (especially high output heavy duty (well cooled) motors. Again the caps do not pass current through them ever. If any mass of electrons pass ---through--- a capacitor it is broken. Jim
Click to expand...
im, I know you need to find a face saving escape, but there isn't any now that you have dug yourself such a deep hole. Do you have a clamp on AC amp probe? Just walk out to your air conditioner and clamp it around the run capacitor lead and take a reading. Now, my friend, that wire runs from cap to motor on one end & cap to power line on the other, so if that current isn't passing thru that capacitor, I'll kiss your a$$ on Main St at high noon in downtown Dallas. I don't care if it is 'holes' or 'electrons', it is still current. Where do you think the current passes? Around the cap through the ether??

smiley9_headbanger-1.gif
 
Imagine an accumulator for a hydraulic system with a diaphragm in the middle, and a big spring that pushes on the diaphragm from one end keeping it in the middle. Assume further that the spring end is filled with oil, as is the open end. This is a hydraulic capacitor. Fluid can go in, compressing the spring, but not go through to the other side.
The other side must get rid of fluid to allow the pressure to push the spring. Is it flowing through, no. Is it charging up Yes. It is that simple. Jim
 
(quoted from post at 20:03:24 08/22/10) Imagine an accumulator for a hydraulic system with a diaphragm in the middle, and a big spring that pushes on the diaphragm from one end keeping it in the middle. Assume further that the spring end is filled with oil, as is the open end. This is a hydraulic capacitor. Fluid can go in, compressing the spring, but not go through to the other side.
The other side must get rid of fluid to allow the pressure to push the spring. Is it flowing through, no. Is it charging up Yes. It is that simple. Jim
Click to expand...

"Imagine an accumulator for a hydraulic system with a diaphragm in the middle, and a big spring that pushes on the diaphragm from one end keeping it in the middle. Assume further that the spring end is filled with oil, as is the open end. This is a hydraulic capacitor." {{No it isn't!! There is no means to store energy in those two chambers of incompressible liquid.}} "Fluid can go in, compressing the spring, but not go through to the other side."
"The other side must get rid of fluid to allow the pressure to push the spring. Is it flowing through, no. Is it charging up Yes" {{No not charging up...it stores no energy!}}. "It is that simple." {{It is simple though, but it is a capacitor carrying current. X= 1/2x pi xf xC Looks like a frequency sensitive resistor in a circuit, with phase shift. }}

We don't need mis-fitting analogies & mis-fitting 'uncertainty principles", just the facts. Did you measure the current?

Oh, AND you should contact power companies the world over & let them know that their power systems do not work, will not work. They 'think' their capacitors are carrying current, 2,000 amps sometimes. Maybe they will pay you & ted for your advice.........or maybe they won't listen.
Gotta be money in re-designing all those power grids...gotta be lot of people in the dark. Series caps in the power lines...drive around, you will find then all up & down the highways. Cooling fins because they carry a lot of current. No bouncing rubber balls, no hydraulic accumulators, no uncertainty principles, just capacitors carrying current in one wire & out the other...& on down the wires. real simple.
powertransmissioncapacitors.jpg
 
I have no issue with the concept of AC current being transferred (in some cases with apparent no resistance) through a cap. The reality that we speak of, and which Teddy has corectly identified is that the capacitor in a point/condenser style ignition acts (at the spark extenguish point) as a resonator, passing low frequency charge into and out of the plates as it absorbs and returns the EMF of the collapsing coil magnetism. As this dwindles to nothing, resistive/reluctance decay) the points, or a transistor, can again close without radical spark. We may be arguing from the same point with regards to the reality of AC current and electrons, but electrons do not go through a cap.
From on line source:

The current i(t) through any component in an electric circuit is defined as the rate of flow of a charge q(t) passing through it, but actual charges, electrons, cannot pass through the dielectric layer of a capacitor, rather an electron accumulates on the negative plate for each one that leaves the positive plate, resulting in an electron depletion and consequent positive charge on one electrode that is equal and opposite to the accumulated negative charge on the other. Thus the charge on the electrodes is equal to the integral of the current as well as proportional to the voltage as discussed above. As with any antiderivative, a constant of integration is added to represent the initial voltage v (t0). This is the integral form of the capacitor equation,[12] Jim
 
(quoted from post at 15:04:28 08/23/10) I have no issue with the concept of AC current being transferred (in some cases with apparent no resistance) through a cap. The reality that we speak of, and which Teddy has corectly identified is that the capacitor in a point/condenser style ignition acts (at the spark extenguish point) as a resonator, passing low frequency charge into and out of the plates as it absorbs and returns the EMF of the collapsing coil magnetism. As this dwindles to nothing, resistive/reluctance decay) the points, or a transistor, can again close without radical spark. We may be arguing from the same point with regards to the reality of AC current and electrons, but electrons do not go through a cap.
From on line source:

The current i(t) through any component in an electric circuit is defined as the rate of flow of a charge q(t) passing through it, but actual charges, electrons, cannot pass through the dielectric layer of a capacitor, rather an electron accumulates on the negative plate for each one that leaves the positive plate, resulting in an electron depletion and consequent positive charge on one electrode that is equal and opposite to the accumulated negative charge on the other. Thus the charge on the electrodes is equal to the integral of the current as well as proportional to the voltage as discussed above. As with any antiderivative, a constant of integration is added to represent the initial voltage v (t0). This is the integral form of the capacitor equation,[12] Jim
Click to expand...

Wow! I noted the gradual 'stepping back' from the "no current flows through a condenser (thru meaning in one lead and out the other), but this is such a giant step back from your initial defense of ted's "current does not flow through a condenser...hits condenser & bounces back like a rubber ball..", that I can hardly believe it. I was expecting more of the slow sliding, as in moving to hydraulic accumulators, more 'uncertainty principles', slipping into holes & electrons and away from current, etc. as in past days. I suppose it is still a move away from the initial "no current" claim/position, in that it is a move toward " let us talk about something else,... perhaps 'how' current flow through a capacitor" and maybe we will all forget about the "no current flows" claim. Clearly you are learning & coming around...just taking too long. Probably thinking, "why did I step into ted's bucket of poop" about now and "how do I get out of this pile? and walk away without it all over my shoes?'.
 
Not really, just meshing as deeply as incompatible gears will mesh without stripping. Do not characterize me as coming around. I have not, but I do have respect for you, and your opinion. Next hour I teach University Electronics Jim
 
(quoted from post at 12:04:49 08/24/10) Not really, just meshing as deeply as incompatible gears will mesh without stripping. Do not characterize me as coming around. I have not, but I do have respect for you, and your opinion. Next hour I teach University Electronics Jim
Click to expand...
im, I would have not been as hard over with you, but it was the "no current flows through a capacitor(through meaning in one lead & out the other" defense of ted's statement that caused it. Once you moved off that & into the "how" current actually flows in one wire & out the other & that it isn't the same electron going in one side and exiting the other, I have no argument with you there, but the whole affair started over 'current', which we both (the whole world) agrees is coulombs/second, where that could be expressed as 6.25 x 10 to the 18th power electrons per second. The current flows, just not the exact electron in & out.
As far as the AC/DC aspect, John T even said very early on, ".. willlllllllll briefly conduct current until the condensor becomes charged, after which time it then appears as an open circuit to further DC. ". It is conducting current, flowing in one lead & out the other, during that charging or discharging time. Your analogy with the two sides of a bucket with bladder in center is a pretty good analogy for the current flow aspect. Just not universal enough to cover stored energy though. Maybe add another bladder with compressible gas in between the two & oil on either side? Keep the current flowing! I tried not to get 'personal'....no hard feelings, I hope.
 
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