I've gotten the impression from this web site over time that a lot of guys, given the choice between buying a Super M-TA vs a 400 (assuming similar conditions of each) would go for the Super M-TA.Just curious for the reasons. Was there many less Supers made? People seem to be asking a lot more money for the M-TA's. Maybe my mind is numb from the 3 degrees this morning.
- Thread starter Charlie M
- Start date
mike1972chev
Well-known Member
I will probably get something thrown at me but here goes.
A Super M TA is just more "collectable" because of being built in 1954 only.Some people(like me) like the "earlier" sheet metal look of an M.
The 400 is a better "user " tractor in my opinion if it has the muti lever hydraulic valve and the Fast Hitch.Chances are it has power steering,as well.I believe they are BOTH the same cubic inch engine? 400s fuel tank is a little smaller too.
A Super M TA is just more "collectable" because of being built in 1954 only.Some people(like me) like the "earlier" sheet metal look of an M.
The 400 is a better "user " tractor in my opinion if it has the muti lever hydraulic valve and the Fast Hitch.Chances are it has power steering,as well.I believe they are BOTH the same cubic inch engine? 400s fuel tank is a little smaller too.
mike1972chev
Well-known Member
Wonder if that horsepower increase on the 400 was a "little white lie" from IH????? Guessing here?? IDK???
mike1972chev
Well-known Member
But,just too add,(because I have had TONS of time on my hands today
I would love to own ANY of the IH tractors M thru 450.THOSE are my faves!!!
A really "hopped up" M thru a really good shape 450 would do some really good 3 bottom plow work.
My opinion
I would love to own ANY of the IH tractors M thru 450.THOSE are my faves!!!A really "hopped up" M thru a really good shape 450 would do some really good 3 bottom plow work.
My opinion
Janicholson
Well-known Member
No it was tuning and cam timing/specs. and IIIRC RPM.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Super MTA is a collector's tractor the 400 is kind of the odd man out, a reskinned MTA, then replaced by the 450. The 400 and 450 were just fill ins till the 560 was ready for production. I love my 400 don't get me wrong and it is turning into a rarer tractor, but it is still not a "collectors" tractor.
mike1972chev
Well-known Member
Is that true 43 Warhorse?
Did the 400-450 just "fill in a gap" before the 460/560 debut?
I like the 460/560 tractors(the ones with the rear axle modifications)but I personally wouldnt trade 2 or 3 560s for one good 450(my opinion)
Did the 400-450 just "fill in a gap" before the 460/560 debut?
I like the 460/560 tractors(the ones with the rear axle modifications)but I personally wouldnt trade 2 or 3 560s for one good 450(my opinion)
400Dtractorman
Member
The 400 had a different head also which gave it more power.
i dont care for the MTA's for the given fact that everyone seems to think they are 'collectable' and one of the coolest things out there. anything made in that quantity to me isnt very collectable. figure 25000 were made, thats 500 tractors in EACH state of the union. Here in Iowa we have 99 counties which makes it to be right at 5 tractors in every county alone. lots of them out there
I would take the 400 simply for the fact that around me no-one really wants them and you dont see them too much. couple that with the FH, Power steering and few other little options and makes for better usable machine. 5 extra ponies doesnt hurt either. I personally like the styling of the 400/450's. Think the 450's are a bit sharper witht he white on them though. Around here 450's bring a premium and i really have yet to figure out why, but maybe ill never figure it out, who knows. I have a 400G, 450G, and a 450LP and love em, and wouldnt ever think of getting an MTA.
only thing that ruins the 460/560 for me is the styling, dont like it one bit, but i do like the 6cyl in them!
I would take the 400 simply for the fact that around me no-one really wants them and you dont see them too much. couple that with the FH, Power steering and few other little options and makes for better usable machine. 5 extra ponies doesnt hurt either. I personally like the styling of the 400/450's. Think the 450's are a bit sharper witht he white on them though. Around here 450's bring a premium and i really have yet to figure out why, but maybe ill never figure it out, who knows. I have a 400G, 450G, and a 450LP and love em, and wouldnt ever think of getting an MTA.
only thing that ruins the 460/560 for me is the styling, dont like it one bit, but i do like the 6cyl in them!
mike1972chev
Well-known Member
I FEEL you F 20,
I would say the diesel version of the Super M TA is the "rare dog".
I never did get an answer,but me and one other YDT forum member are thinking that a straight up 1954 Super M is ACTUALLY MORE RARE than a Super MTA because they were only built in the early first quarter of that year,and THEN the SuperM TA dominated the rest of the 54 year.
ANY input on this one from anyone ?????
I personally DO NOT car for all the "square corners" on the hoods of the 460/560 over the 400- 450s rounded sheet metal. but I love ALL of these tractors,just some more than others.
I would say the diesel version of the Super M TA is the "rare dog".
I never did get an answer,but me and one other YDT forum member are thinking that a straight up 1954 Super M is ACTUALLY MORE RARE than a Super MTA because they were only built in the early first quarter of that year,and THEN the SuperM TA dominated the rest of the 54 year.
ANY input on this one from anyone ?????
I personally DO NOT car for all the "square corners" on the hoods of the 460/560 over the 400- 450s rounded sheet metal. but I love ALL of these tractors,just some more than others.
I guess from an operational standpoint three hydraulic remotes are nice. We have several 400/450s in the family if you replace all the orings in the hydraulics so they don't leak and install a seperate power steering pump so your not relying on the flow divider, they really are nice old tractors to use. The 400s had a bad rap for vibrating and I agree they do. Once you get to the C-281 engine I think they are balanced and they run smoother. Also the early 400s had a small fuel tank that required more fillups than an SMTA. I guess I would agree with some people that the early 400s had some drawbacks.
charlie M, Yes, people go nuts and ask ridiculous prices for a SM-TA as opposed to a 400. The SM-TA is rare to the fact "that were just not that many Built" NO Other Reason!!! (+ - 2500)if I hadn't gone brain dead.
The Farmall M lineage starts with the introduction of the M in 1939, and goes through the 400 series tractor. IMO the better bargain is the 400 or 450 in what ever flavor of Fuel you prefer!! that is the Pennical of the Series.
The 400/450 series was a much better refined tractor than the SM-TA!!! Hope this helps !
Later,
John A.
The Farmall M lineage starts with the introduction of the M in 1939, and goes through the 400 series tractor. IMO the better bargain is the 400 or 450 in what ever flavor of Fuel you prefer!! that is the Pennical of the Series.
The 400/450 series was a much better refined tractor than the SM-TA!!! Hope this helps !
Later,
John A.
mike1972chev
Well-known Member
I believe the 2500 production number just covers the Diesel versions ???
Does that sound right Old F20 ????
Does that sound right Old F20 ????
mike1972chev
Well-known Member
Jim,Is the cam timing from the 400 something that could be carried over to my 264 CI in my Super M?
Nobody ever told me the SMTA was "special." There's just something about the tractor...
Designers will tell you that a slight change in proportion will make something look completely different.
I think the reason the SMTA is so attractive is because IH accidentally got the proportions right when they added the TA section. That made the tractor several inches longer, and changed the entire look.
An M always seems a little short and stubby to me, and the 400's styling is just plain BLAH...
Designers will tell you that a slight change in proportion will make something look completely different.
I think the reason the SMTA is so attractive is because IH accidentally got the proportions right when they added the TA section. That made the tractor several inches longer, and changed the entire look.
An M always seems a little short and stubby to me, and the 400's styling is just plain BLAH...
Janicholson
Well-known Member
I believe there is a difference in the lobe and overlap between SM and 450 cams. I do not have the specs, but 450 cams are considered to be the choice. A grinder could sure supply the data. Jim
rustred
Well-known Member
all kinds of farmalls made in those. it would be the international standard tractors that are worth more to the collector. there was only 3005 W6 TA Supers built. and in the 400-450 standards there was only low #'s also and are rated highest in collectables. the diesel w6 ta is the most sought after.
Not throwing anything here.
Personally I think the M series just looks more "old tractor like".
Subjective of course, but I think it really all depends one what you grew up with. I'm willing to bet that most people of age to be buying old tractors "just for fun" are probably also of roughly the same age bracket to consider an M "old" and a 400 "new" (obviously not everybody).
That makes the M more collectible. Maybe that'll change as 400's become "old" to the up and coming generation.
(I'm sure 10-15 or so years ago it would have been more between the F's and the letter series for most people)
If I'm going to buy an "old" tractor, it's more for sentimental reasons than as a functional machine. I love the f series, but I don't remember them in use. So for me, an F is a curiosity - but an M brings me back to my younger days.
If I were deciding between the two for USE I'd go 400 without a second thought - but buying it for the love of old tractors - the M is where it's at for me.
Personally I think the M series just looks more "old tractor like".
Subjective of course, but I think it really all depends one what you grew up with. I'm willing to bet that most people of age to be buying old tractors "just for fun" are probably also of roughly the same age bracket to consider an M "old" and a 400 "new" (obviously not everybody).
That makes the M more collectible. Maybe that'll change as 400's become "old" to the up and coming generation.
(I'm sure 10-15 or so years ago it would have been more between the F's and the letter series for most people)
If I'm going to buy an "old" tractor, it's more for sentimental reasons than as a functional machine. I love the f series, but I don't remember them in use. So for me, an F is a curiosity - but an M brings me back to my younger days.
If I were deciding between the two for USE I'd go 400 without a second thought - but buying it for the love of old tractors - the M is where it's at for me.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
As I recall from some of my winter reading IH displayed a prototype 560 in 1956 and had been developing the next gen tractors since 1954. So the engineers just dressed up and tested longevity of different upgrades on the basic M platform till the 560 was ready for production.
If you unskin a 400 and a late Super M side by side, they are almost identical. You will here guys toss around a e arly 400 having Z casting codes the same as an MTA.
I built my 400 to be a puller and a damn good one I found out after a learning curve from pulling an M.
If you unskin a 400 and a late Super M side by side, they are almost identical. You will here guys toss around a e arly 400 having Z casting codes the same as an MTA.
I built my 400 to be a puller and a damn good one I found out after a learning curve from pulling an M.
Nebraska Kirk
Well-known Member
I am of a similar opinion. While I would not mind owning a Super MTA, I am not willing to pay the exorbitant prices they generally command. A 400 is basically the same as a SMTA, just with different sheet metal and they can be had a lot cheaper than a SMTA. I bought my 400 gas for $900 and that was with a Schwartz wide front.
mike1972chev
Well-known Member
Rock On 43 Warhorse !!!!
The Dukester
Well-known Member
The Super MTA was the final refinement and the really good one of the true M series in the eyes of a lot of M lovers. Even though the 400's and 450's were pretty much M's under their skin, they just didn't have the "pizazz" the Super MTA had. They just didn't look right for an M and a lot of older potential buyers didn't like it. And some people that were planning and saving for a Super MTA were truly disappointed when IH came out with the 400 replacing it so soon. Some were hoping for a lot more than they got when they bought a 400...even the obvious extra power the later 450 gassers had didn't please 'em all...and then some didn't like the white contrasting color. The 460 and 560 was welcomed by some...but some didn't like the new and quite different styling and the different way they handled...or the mono-tone,humming, 6 cylinders...and if you looked carefully at them you saw too much "old H and M stuff" stuck in them. Then they started having trouble with them...and well, the rest is history. I wuz there, "red to the bone", and I remember.......Our local dealer at that time (Johnny Carr) was pretty vocal and we used to hear a lot from him. He died a little with the 560 and it's troubles, but was born again when the 706's and 806's came on the scene.
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