W-9 Magneto with 12 volt custom conversion is...

Hi, all. I just bought a W-9 project and want to establish what I
have to work with before spending a lot on it. It"s been stored
inside, the engine is loose, and it turns over nicely with its rebuilt
starter.

It doesn"t have spark, and has a 12 volt conversion (single wire
alternator) with magneto. The seller said it was as if someone had
converted the mag into a distributor. The magneto has 2 external
Farmall style condensers and a standard cylindrical coil outside
(the mag"s coil is probably bad). The wiring is rough and one wire
is pulled out of a condenser.

It has a couple of toggle switches, one is spring loaded and works
as the starter switch (via solenoid). I figure the other is the kill
switch, but there is also has a strange plastic switch that looks
something like the plastic key switch on a snow blower.

I have several pictures that I would be glad to e-mail anyone who
might be able to give me some ideas. Again, at this point I"d just
like to see if I can make it fire and run. Eventually, I"ll clean up the
wiring and hopefully get a correct coil for the mag. Any ideas on
this setup?

Thanks for reading,
zim

Here's a picture of the "custom" switches.

Back side of switches.

Alternator. The heavy yellow wire has been cut further down the harness.

Teenage daughter ready to get this beast running.

Yikes! That is one ugly looking electrical system. I am not a fan of cobbling together a bunch of stuff like that. If it was mine, I would fix the mag, get the right starter & generator, and rewire it to original…..but that's me. In my opinion it just isn't worth the bother to fix someone else's do-it-yourself wiring mess. The 12V conversion may or may not have been necessary. Sometimes 12V conversions are a fix for underlying problems that are not understood by the owner.

if there is a solenoid for the starter then it is not the original starter. The original starter had a pull rod instead of a solenoid.

To get it running, you could fix the mag and pull start the tractor without a battery. The coil is available at a reasonable price. The points & condenser are also available.

just to get it started I would clean check the points as that's the first place to look when an engine has sat for a long time. when the contacts sit closed they form a film and it has to be cleaned. use a fine emery or point file. set gap at .013. can even give them a spray with brake kleen. put a couple oz. oil in each cyl. check your fuel system and even run some out the carb bottom. give it a pull and she should fire right up. notice you have no starter. this way you can tell how the tractor is before spending big money. then do the other stuff later.

THe mag can be used as a points and coil system. Inside is a set of points that trigger the spark in the mag. .013" gap
It is wired by having the mag's points connect only to the grounding terminal on the side, and not internally to the mag's coil.
This grounding terminal is now going to be used as the connection from both a condenser (good one) and an exterior coil.
The removal of the rotor and internal "wall" hiding the points can lead to trouble if the rotor gets out of time, so I will describe a way to find out id the points are working as is.
Disconnect the wires from the outside of the Mag where they attach to that terminal. Leave the spark plug wires and the cap as is.
Connect a test light to a the non-ground terminal on the battery, and that terminal on the mag. Usually the light will now be shining, because the points provide ground when closed.
With it in neutral, crank the engine and watch the light. if it flashes off and on, the points are at least working. If it does not light and does not flash when cranking, the points are either out of adjustment, or have an insulating corrosion on them, or the points are not wired to the terminal. No light or flash requires going into the mag to clean/set/wire.
If flashing great.
connect a good condenser to ground (like those shown but good) connect the lead to the terminal we have been testing along with another wire (12 gauge is good) that will reach the negative terminal of the good coil. Connect the Positive terminal of the coil to the non-grounded battery post with a clip so it is easy to hook and unhook.
You now have a coil ignition system that should provide spark. The coil spark lead should go into the cap center on the mag.
If it has fuel and spark it will run.
The mag is set up with an impulse coupling that causes the magnet and mag system to be triggered into fast rotation when cranking the engine (starter or hand crank) this impulse coupling clicks rather loudly when it trips, and retards the spark so it is at TDC or just after. It should be audible when cranking. If it is not tripping, the timing will be advanced to the point that it could backfire and (if hand cranked) hurt the person cranking. If no clicks, the mag will need to be repaired to operate the impulse coupling.
Pull starting the tractor would not be a problem with a faulty impulse coupling (assumes you have the background and help to safely pull start the tractor)
THe best permanent repair is to either fix the mag, or find a correct distributor for a W9. If I recall correctly they turn counter clockwise, which is different than gas run IH/Farmall tractors, which will not work as donors.
Good luck, it looks great. Jim

dist turns clockwise on gas engines. you need to know this to have correct firing order. (1342) #1 cyl. is at 2 oclock position. that's if it still has its factory position. you will need to check that also.
the diesels rotate counterclockwise.

Yeah, I know what a W-9 should have; 6 volt systems can be fine, and wouldn't have done it this way either. My 6 volt Cub does great on its stock charging system. On the other hand, I love my 12 volt M with a generator and new style starter. I appreciate originality, but function is more important at this interval.

Like I said, I just want to find out the status of the tractor before spending money on things like that. I'm not sure there's anything wrong with the mag; just trying to decipher that "custom" wiring.

Thanks

Thanks for your reply. It has a rebuilt starter bolted on now. I just don't have spark. Those condensers seem sketchy to me. I'm hoping someone can figure out what was done here, then I can clean up the mess!

Thanks! I'm going to print this out and take it with me next time I work on the W-9. I'd really like to keep the mag, then eventually get the right coil, replace those switches, and make the rest look more subtle eventually.

Thanks, rustred!

I know you know this but if I don't say it I will wonder. Don't connect the mag to electricity when it is a good mag. It is grounded to shut off the tractor. 12 volts placed on that terminal on a good mag makes melted mag. Jim

Thanks for the heads-up.

So with this setup, you don't use the mag's coil, even if it works. The external coil is necessary, right? I noticed they used a ceramic resister/ballast. Is that to drop to 6 volts for the coil?

Thanks for all of your information

Ahh..think you better double check direction of rotation. Think W-9 is different than the other gassers.

That is correct, the resistor is really needed in the system (assumes a coil that needs the resistor). The yellow topped coil is probably a Ford component, and needs a resistor. (very few of those fail, so it is probably good)
put the information I gave you in the category of testing. If you get spark by direct from coil to battery as I described, do not run it that way, put the resistor in the circuit to drop the voltage.
There is more to this idea, but lets get it firing first. Jim

First is get the mag fixed or go to a dist as that one is a mess.

I agree with Gene, it looks like you have a mag that they are using for just the points. It might be a lot to fix that mag, you are starting from an unknown.

Again, all I want to do is find out the status of the rest of the tractor. The mag can be used this way, so for now that's the plan. Tonight, I was able to establish the mag's points are working (still no spark), so now I'm going to swap the coil from my M. If I do end up replacing the mag, I'll probably look for a distributor.

Thanks

Jim. The test light flashes as you describe, but still no spark to the plugs. I'm now thinking the coil might be the problem. I have a coil on my M that I could swap out to test it. Both use a ballast resistor. Are those used to drop the 12 volts to 6 volts? If I end up needing a new coil, could I just buy a 12 volt coil without a resistor?

Thanks again!

(quoted from post at 01:12:55 03/20/14) Again, all I want to do is find out the status of the rest of the tractor. The mag can be used this way, so for now that's the plan. Tonight, I was able to establish the mag's points are working (still no spark), so now I'm going to swap the coil from my M. If I do end up replacing the mag, I'll probably look for a distributor.

Thanks

Click to expand...

No problem, some of us were just suggesting to repair the mag because that could be the simplest route. Sometimes that happens when you ask for advice. They are not difficult to repair if you know what you are doing, and in my opinion mags are very reliable. The present arrangement may need a few dollars worth of parts to make it functional too, and yes it can be made to work if you want to go that route. It is not real easy to troubleshoot it without being there in person…….but Jim is doing a pretty good job of helping just the same.

Now that it flashes, pull the coil wire out of the cap and hold it wit insulated pliers 1/4" away from the block. Crank it and see if there is spark there. If there is, the rotor in the Mag may be out of time, or the cap cracked or carbon tracked, or the rotor might be carbon tracked or the timing index broken in the rotor. The rotor shaft is gear driven from the mag main shaft, and must be timed with small inconspicuous marks so it points in the correct direction to fire when the points break. Look there before suspecting the coil. Jim

I'll give that a try. Thanks again

(quoted from post at 23:14:49 03/18/14) dist turns clockwise on gas engines. you need to know this to have correct firing order. (1342) #1 cyl. is at 2 oclock position. that's if it still has its factory position. you will need to check that also.
the diesels rotate counterclockwise.

Click to expand...

The W9 engine is different from the other gas engines in that the distributor turns CCW, the same as the gas start diesel engines.

You were right. The coil is fine. Tonight, the test light didn't light up or flash at all. Later, it flashed briefly. The coil didn't produce visible spark, so I swapped out the one on my M. The M coil didn't spark either. The W-9 coil works on the M. The rotor and cap look good. Should I go ahead and get into the points? Will just cleaning and checking the gap mess up the timing? I really wish I had a distributor about now...

Thanks again

The plastic switch is the main battery disconnect, if it hasn't been mentioned yet. Otherwise call me Captain Obvious.

Odds are the previous owner had discharge problems with the alternator conversion, and installed that.

Thanks!

The points must be operational. Jim

I filed and cleaned the points and it now fires! It'll run a little while when I dribble a little gas in the carb, but doesn't want to run from the carb and temporary fuel tank. Gas does run out the bottom of the carb when I pull the drain plug. I can rattle the float when I push it with a plastic tube through the drain hole. I'll be taking the carb off for a cleaning next.

I filed and cleaned the points. It now has spark and will run for a little bit when I dribble gas into the carb. It won't run with the temporary gas tank connected to the carb, yet. Gas does run out the carb drain, but I'm guessing the carb is dirty. That's next on the agenda. Thanks again!

She's running!
W 9 Running