Slow engine turnover with new battery and starter ??

Gtrclive · Oct 22, 2016

Bought a old Ford Diesel 3 cylinder Back hoe Tractor. It doesn't seem to spin very quickly on the starter, so I fitted a large commercial battery and a brand new Lucas starter motor thinking it was that. Seems it's still to slow to get it started. It does start occasionally but only when the rpm is enough. Just not sure what's dragging the starter down . Once running it goes great, vents a little but good power.,,

Any idea fellas ??

Clive

Kirk-NJ · Oct 22, 2016

6 volt 12 volt? Proper battery cable?
Might be a bad ground.

Kirk

RickB · Oct 22, 2016

3 cylinder would be 12 volt. Junk cables/ bad connections??

Dean · Oct 22, 2016

Battery cables.

You must have properly sized battery cables that are in good condition.

Dean

tractorguy2 · Oct 22, 2016

Did you clean the area where the starter mounts? Starter needs a
good clean ground.

Next thing would be the battery cables are too light or in poor
condition. Wore out starter switch can cause trouble.

Did you clean the ground cable where it bolts to the frame?

David G · Oct 22, 2016

I would agree with the others, probably connection, would have been cheap fix.

old · Oct 22, 2016

Clean tight and bright on all connections and where the starter mounts. Also the battery cable can look just fine and yet be bad so good chance your battery cables are bad and on something like that you want cables bigger then the 2 gauge car battery cables you get form most auto parts places

David G · Oct 22, 2016

I just thought about this.

My 6610 spins over consistently, but not real fast.

How fast does yours spin?

47fivewindow · Oct 22, 2016

Carefully run your hands over things and check if anything is getting warm after cranking awhile.

RodinNS · Oct 22, 2016

Probably a bad connection.... I don't know how many of those things I've seen with bolt on cable ends and none of them ever start properly.
If it doesn't have 2/0 cables with crimped or soldered ends on BOTH ends, start there. Beyond that it's possible that something is dragging
internally.... but I'd bet on the cables.
Wimpy little 4ga car cables DO NOT start that engine.

Rod

Hobo,NC · Oct 23, 2016

#1 info needed..

Check the battery voltage and record before and while crank'N...

Gtrclive · Oct 23, 2016

Fitted new 1/0 cables + and - direct to starter... Voltage at start 13+ but after a few seconds it's down to 7 volts.,,

Got charger on battery while cranking and it recovers to 12 volts + very quickly .... I've never seen a problem like this before and it's got me vexed.
Will try cleaning all the connections again you never know

Bern · Oct 24, 2016

Something no one else has brought up yet...what about an external hydraulic load on the engine while cranking? Could your main hydraulic pump be trying to go up against relief while cranking?

Do you have access to an amp clamp? Try measuring cranking amps once. It should be roughly 300-400 amps or so for that engine. If it is significantly more than that, suggest looking for a control valve that is stuck in a non-neutral position.

Sean in PA · Oct 24, 2016

Voltage dropping from 13V down to 7V after just a few seconds of cranking the starter doesn't add up. plus, "recovering back up to 12V" quickly doesn't sound right either

I know you said it's a "large commercial " battery, but how many CCA's is it actually rated for?

Hobo,NC · Oct 24, 2016

You first have to burn off the surface charge. Either by running the head lights are turn the engine over for 3 sec are so then record. You should have a reading of 12.6V on a fully charged battery after you knock off the surface charge.

7V while cranking is a battery extremely low on charge, a bad battery are a bad starter are you have a bad connection at the battery were your test leads are connected .

The battery needs to be load tested along with doing a voltage drop test on the cables and connections. We are not there to confirm the connections are clean... Retest putting you test meter directly on the battery post to confirm the bat is actually pulling down to 7V while cranking.

Texasmark1 · Oct 24, 2016

I agree with all the comments. A sulphated battery will appear to charge back up rapidly but a load test will show it defecient. You said new battery so that should be out of the loop, but is it really?

Load on the engine externally surely can sap the battery but if you are consuming Volt-amps due to the extra load, you won't replace them on a fast charge.

Since it was stated that engine is supposed to require 300-400 amperes, did you load check the new battery for 11 v terminal voltage with that kind of load on a resistive pile load checker.....for 15 seconds?

Running your hand down the circuit looking for a heat rise is an excellent idea....don't forget to include the starting solenoid while you are checking for heat buildup. 13 volts dropping down to 7 at the battery in a short time smells of something overheating, driving the resistance up and that would be your hot spot....if bad enough you should smell insulation getting hot and stinking.

Clean and bright and tight, yes, but inside where the current flows, outside surface makes no difference. If the return, ground, negative, whatever you call it, connects to a bolt on the engine block, ensure that you shined up that connection too. Where the new starter mounts to the block needs to be clean too if the grounding circuit for the starter is through the engine block casting.

Gtrclive · Oct 25, 2016

Not thought of that one, yes i do have a clamp Ameter... Will be trying it first thing

Battery is 1250 CCA and new as is the starter

BarnyardEngineering · Oct 25, 2016

New doesn't mean good.

Clamp meter only works on AC.

Texasmark1 · Oct 25, 2016

The clamp on ammeter is a transformer which requires an alternating field (AC as Clive mentions). A DC field will just drive the magnetism up
the BH (gauss-flux density) curve until the core (the laminated iron jaws) saturate and the output falls to zero.

The primary winding of the transformer is the wire to be tested, around which the jaws (iron core) of the transformer encircle completing the
flux path. The secondary is inside the handle and the secondary current operates the meter movement.

For high DC currents, you need a very low resistance slab of copper (preferred)/brass with a known resistance. The voltage drop across the
terminals of such (a meter shunt) is measured and using ohms law, Voltage/Resistance = Amperage.

Hobo,NC · Oct 25, 2016

Since it was stated that engine is supposed to require 300-400 amperes.

That's what it would take to keep a good starter active in that application the initial amp draw to push it to move could easily double that.

Gtrclive · Oct 25, 2016

Well for shits and giggle I changed the Oil..... not nice i must admit. Will do another change after a few hours as Im guessing its in need a good flush...

Still not changed the situation on the starting, but I'm leaning towards the battery is not suited to the Engine. Am going to take the battery back tomorrow and see If i can exchange it for a Gel battery, as the Noco Booster has more success in getting it started then this massive Truck unit....

Texasmark1 · Oct 26, 2016

This still doesn't make sense. Ford 3 cyl diesels max out at 200 cu in. anything above that is 4 cyl or more. I have a 3000 in that area and I
guarantee you it doesn't need 300-400 amps to start; it's in the 150-200 as I said, even on a cold day...using 15W-40 oil. Something else is
driving up the amperage requirement if that much current is actually required. Additionally and if so, the starter would be hot enough to sizzle
spit after 30 seconds of cranking, or something in the hookup wiring would be melting insulation.

Gtrclive · Oct 26, 2016

(quoted from post at 06:00:54 10/26/16) This still doesn't make sense. Ford 3 cyl diesels max out at 200 cu in. anything above that is 4 cyl or more. I have a 3000 in that area and I
guarantee you it doesn't need 300-400 amps to start; it's in the 150-200 as I said, even on a cold day...using 15W-40 oil. Something else is
driving up the amperage requirement if that much current is actually required. Additionally and if so, the starter would be hot enough to sizzle
spit after 30 seconds of cranking, or something in the hookup wiring would be melting insulation.

Starter not getting that hot to be honest nor are the cables....

Did see a lovely alternator conversion here on this sight, but it seems they wont ship Canada which is so depressing as I'd love to buy one...

On further investigation the model of my old boy is a 4500, is does say that on the Back hoe arm. The rating plate that was on the dash area has gone so its still a guess....

Gtrclive · Oct 27, 2016

Well after 3 cold starts I'm glad to say that the brand new silly over sized Commersial battery was not pulling it weight. I took it back and bought a Red Top Deep cycle Optima battery and it starts a lot better.... Still need to do a Alt conversion as I'm sure the Dyno isn't much good but I'll have to source in in Canada...

Thanks again chaps for your help, I'm sure this won't be the last help thread !!!!

Cheers

Clive

RodinNS · Oct 28, 2016

The alternator conversion is a Tisco product. Many NewHolland dealers will carry that line of products. Personally I would put a standard
Delco 10si in there and adapt the instruments to a newer generation provided it is newer than a '72 block that has the welch plug below the
oil filter.

Rod

Slow engine turnover with new battery and starter ??

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