Hay Dogs, Wedges and Stops! When Is Enough - Enough???

Bill VA · Oct 30, 2014

My NH68 presently has (looking from the back to the front of the baler) one spring loaded hay dog on the center bottom of the bale chamber, two spring loaded hay dogs in the top of the bale chamber - one centered and the other to the right/knife side of the plunger. There is a fixed hay stop (wedged shaped) on the bottom of the bale chamber - right/knife side and there are 4 vertical (wedge shaped) hay stops, 2 per side of the bale chamber. All of this squares with the parts diagrams.

What is missing is 2 smaller hay stops (wedge shaped) at the top of the bale chamber.

Even though the parts list shows all of these items, I'm not sure they were necessarily standard. Reason I say that is due to the missing smaller hay stops and at least 2 of the vertical hay stops have a Sperry NH tag/logo on the back side of them (I removed them to get the plunger out). OTOH, could be some were removed and others replaced.

I think I read that the JD348 has more wedges standard than the JD328 - even though they make the same bale size.

Looking at a New Holland brochure of a new BC model type square baler, there are 6 spring loaded hay dogs, 3 on top and 3 on the bottom of the bale chamber.

The impression I get is more wedges, hay stops and hay dogs, the better.

Question is - is this true?

Other than keeping the hay from springing back towards the plunger after a charge stroke, what is the purpose of less vs more hay stops, dogs and wedges?

BTW, in the box of parts I got today, was a new hay stop for the bottom as the one in the baler is quite worn down and also in the box was 2 smaller hay stops for the top of the bale chamber that are presently missing.

Hope to be making bricks with this baler sooner than later!

Thanks,
Bill

Tx Jim · Oct 31, 2014

Bill
You're correct in that JD higher capacity balers have twice as many hay dogs as the lower capacity balers. Hay dogs keep hay held back in chamber away from twine/wire being feed up into knotter so knotter systems has a better opportunity to form a knot/twist. Wedges on the other hand create more hay resistance therefore causing a heavier/tighter bale

showcrop · Oct 31, 2014

I'm pretty sure that I read in a manual, JD I think, the same explanation as TXJim. I know from experience the problems that you can have when too many dogs get stuck!

Our Farmer · Oct 31, 2014

The wedge bolted to the bottom of the chamber isn't a hay stop, it's a plunger stop just in case something lets go up front. as far as hay stops in the top of the chamber, I've never seen one there and given the adjustment of the plunger to the top of the chamber for knotting purposes, I don't think it would be a good idea. If you're talking about the chute, well I dunno, never seen one on the top there either.

As far as hay dogs, there are only provisions for three on the 68, two at the top of the chamber, and one at the bottom. More were added to later model balers.

Bill VA · Oct 31, 2014

"The wedge bolted to the bottom of the chamber isn't a hay stop, it's a plunger stop just in case something lets go up front."

That's good info as the one in mine was turned around 180 degrees - like a wedge! That thing was wore down and the bottom edge was sharp as a knife when I took it out - LOL!

''as far as hay stops in the top of the chamber, I've never seen one there and given the adjustment of the plunger to the top of the chamber for knotting purposes, I don't think it would be a good idea. If you're talking about the chute, well I dunno, never seen one on the top there either.''

They are definitely not there, but the parts list shows them. I can't say I recall mounting holes for them, I'll have another look.''

"As far as hay dogs, there are only provisions for three on the 68, two at the top of the chamber, and one at the bottom. More were added to later model balers. "

That is exactly the way my baler is, three hay dogs, one on the bottom and two on the top. So I thought maybe these additional wedges might be in leu of them?

Here is a quote from Steve in New Holland I found from an older post I find interesting and counter to my own thoughts:

"Tim, I hate to buck the tide as all the others have told you that you need them, but I am going to. Please believe me when I tell you that I have spent the past 28 years trying to get farmers to use less of them, not more. If you can bale tight enough without them, PLEASE don't put them in. Now I do not have my head in the sand on this issue. I realize that there are super dry conditions that you do need them. If you live in a low humidity area, then I would put 1 on each side for starters. If you live like I do near the coast where super dry hay is hard to find, then try it with none. The big reason I am anti-wedge is because of the knotters. Again, when the hay is super dry they are ok. But when evening comes and the hay begins to draw moisture and gets a little tougher, please don't wonder why the knotters suddenly begin to mistie if you have more then 2 wedges in the chamber. Now that I have confused you, let me say it is easier to add then take out once you have them in. Try baling without first. Steve"

I'm having trouble copying the link to the thread, but will try again later.

Another thought of mine on the wedges is related to banana bales. If the wedges and hay dogs keep the hay from springing back into the bale chamber, it would seem to me you would have more of a clear/open window for the hay forks to load a full charge of hay in to the bale chamber for the plunger to pack. If hay is springing back and somewhat blocking hay from traveling over to the far side of the bale chamber (remembering that the hay forks delivering the hay from the pick-up are not forceful in their delivery) I should think that hay springing back might block some of the movement of hay entering the bale chamber. The feeder forks deliver the hay and that plus what hay springs back may cause more hay on the pick-up side of the bale chamber, the plunger rams home, packing more hay to the pick-up side of the bale/bale chamber and you have a banana bale.

How's that for over analysis......

Thanks!
Bill

Bill VA · Oct 31, 2014

Here is the link I mentioned regarding wedges by Steve in New Holland:

http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=implment&th=86151

Our Farmer · Nov 1, 2014

The wedges do squat for hay springing back. They're behind the dogs. The only thing the wedges do is increase resistance as bales move through the chute, holding them in compression longer so the plunger can pack flakes a little tighter. You can pretty much accomplish the same thing by tightening up the compression springs.

One thing that does help, for heaven only knows what reason, is the flap that hangs down on the right side of the pick up chamber just before the entry to the plunger chamber. I believe it does just what you said, holds the hay from springing back out from the chamber on the feeder side. I dunno, didn't seem like much but when I installed mine it seemed to make a noticeable difference.

I've found that any tighter than about 90# bales and I have tying problems. But since you rely on human labor, you'll have a mutiny on your hands way before then!

NEBeef · Nov 3, 2014

I have to say that in my experience he's exactly right. The 271 I used for years had most of the hay dogs removed. And the ones that were there were frozen/rusted. That machine always made a fine bale.

As for banana bales, that has everything to do with how the hay get put into the chamber and nothing to do with what happens to it once it's in there. Hay dogs and wedges just aren't going to affect that. If the hay gets fed in even, even if some springs back the same hay is going to get compressed all over again when the tie is done.

My .02 worth...

(quoted from post at 16:00:54 10/31/14) "The wedge bolted to the bottom of the chamber isn't a hay stop, it's a plunger stop just in case something lets go up front."

That's good info as the one in mine was turned around 180 degrees - like a wedge! That thing was wore down and the bottom edge was sharp as a knife when I took it out - LOL!

''as far as hay stops in the top of the chamber, I've never seen one there and given the adjustment of the plunger to the top of the chamber for knotting purposes, I don't think it would be a good idea. If you're talking about the chute, well I dunno, never seen one on the top there either.''

They are definitely not there, but the parts list shows them. I can't say I recall mounting holes for them, I'll have another look.''

"As far as hay dogs, there are only provisions for three on the 68, two at the top of the chamber, and one at the bottom. More were added to later model balers. "

That is exactly the way my baler is, three hay dogs, one on the bottom and two on the top. So I thought maybe these additional wedges might be in leu of them?

Here is a quote from Steve in New Holland I found from an older post I find interesting and counter to my own thoughts:

"Tim, I hate to buck the tide as all the others have told you that you need them, but I am going to. Please believe me when I tell you that I have spent the past 28 years trying to get farmers to use less of them, not more. If you can bale tight enough without them, PLEASE don't put them in. Now I do not have my head in the sand on this issue. I realize that there are super dry conditions that you do need them. If you live in a low humidity area, then I would put 1 on each side for starters. If you live like I do near the coast where super dry hay is hard to find, then try it with none. The big reason I am anti-wedge is because of the knotters. Again, when the hay is super dry they are ok. But when evening comes and the hay begins to draw moisture and gets a little tougher, please don't wonder why the knotters suddenly begin to mistie if you have more then 2 wedges in the chamber. Now that I have confused you, let me say it is easier to add then take out once you have them in. Try baling without first. Steve"

I'm having trouble copying the link to the thread, but will try again later.

Another thought of mine on the wedges is related to banana bales. If the wedges and hay dogs keep the hay from springing back into the bale chamber, it would seem to me you would have more of a clear/open window for the hay forks to load a full charge of hay in to the bale chamber for the plunger to pack. If hay is springing back and somewhat blocking hay from traveling over to the far side of the bale chamber (remembering that the hay forks delivering the hay from the pick-up are not forceful in their delivery) I should think that hay springing back might block some of the movement of hay entering the bale chamber. The feeder forks deliver the hay and that plus what hay springs back may cause more hay on the pick-up side of the bale chamber, the plunger rams home, packing more hay to the pick-up side of the bale/bale chamber and you have a banana bale.

How's that for over analysis......

Thanks!
Bill

showcrop · Nov 3, 2014

(quoted from post at 12:17:46 11/03/14) I have to say that in my experience he's exactly right. The 271 I used for years had most of the hay dogs removed. And the ones that were there were frozen/rusted. That machine always made a fine bale.

As for banana bales, that has everything to do with how the hay get put into the chamber and nothing to do with what happens to it once it's in there. Hay dogs and wedges just aren't going to affect that. If the hay gets fed in even, even if some springs back the same hay is going to get compressed all over again when the tie is done.

My .02 worth...

(quoted from post at 16:00:54 10/31/14) "The wedge bolted to the bottom of the chamber isn't a hay stop, it's a plunger stop just in case something lets go up front."

That's good info as the one in mine was turned around 180 degrees - like a wedge! That thing was wore down and the bottom edge was sharp as a knife when I took it out - LOL!

''as far as hay stops in the top of the chamber, I've never seen one there and given the adjustment of the plunger to the top of the chamber for knotting purposes, I don't think it would be a good idea. If you're talking about the chute, well I dunno, never seen one on the top there either.''

They are definitely not there, but the parts list shows them. I can't say I recall mounting holes for them, I'll have another look.''

"As far as hay dogs, there are only provisions for three on the 68, two at the top of the chamber, and one at the bottom. More were added to later model balers. "

That is exactly the way my baler is, three hay dogs, one on the bottom and two on the top. So I thought maybe these additional wedges might be in leu of them?

Here is a quote from Steve in New Holland I found from an older post I find interesting and counter to my own thoughts:

"Tim, I hate to buck the tide as all the others have told you that you need them, but I am going to. Please believe me when I tell you that I have spent the past 28 years trying to get farmers to use less of them, not more. If you can bale tight enough without them, PLEASE don't put them in. Now I do not have my head in the sand on this issue. I realize that there are super dry conditions that you do need them. If you live in a low humidity area, then I would put 1 on each side for starters. If you live like I do near the coast where super dry hay is hard to find, then try it with none. The big reason I am anti-wedge is because of the knotters. Again, when the hay is super dry they are ok. But when evening comes and the hay begins to draw moisture and gets a little tougher, please don't wonder why the knotters suddenly begin to mistie if you have more then 2 wedges in the chamber. Now that I have confused you, let me say it is easier to add then take out once you have them in. Try baling without first. Steve"

I'm having trouble copying the link to the thread, but will try again later.

Another thought of mine on the wedges is related to banana bales. If the wedges and hay dogs keep the hay from springing back into the bale chamber, it would seem to me you would have more of a clear/open window for the hay forks to load a full charge of hay in to the bale chamber for the plunger to pack. If hay is springing back and somewhat blocking hay from traveling over to the far side of the bale chamber (remembering that the hay forks delivering the hay from the pick-up are not forceful in their delivery) I should think that hay springing back might block some of the movement of hay entering the bale chamber. The feeder forks deliver the hay and that plus what hay springs back may cause more hay on the pick-up side of the bale chamber, the plunger rams home, packing more hay to the pick-up side of the bale/bale chamber and you have a banana bale.

How's that for over analysis......

Thanks!
Bill

Click to expand...

/quote]

My MF 224 will make bales all day just fine with only three out of five dogs working, as long as the flakes are no more than three inches. As soon as it gets a normal amount of hay so that the flakes are four inches, it starts having problems.

Hay Dogs, Wedges and Stops! When Is Enough - Enough???

Bill VA

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Tx Jim

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showcrop

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Our Farmer

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Bill VA

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Bill VA

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Our Farmer

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NEBeef

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showcrop

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