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Choice between two welders

I

Inno

Well-known Member
So I have narrowed down my search for a welder to two.
Hobart Stickmate LX 235 AC/160 DC or a Lincoln AC/DC 225/125.
The Hobart can be had for about $470 new and the Lincoln for about $100 more.
My neighbor has the Hobart and he uses it for most things but also has a gas powered Miller for heavier jobs.
So if it were down to those two choices, which would you pick for welding on an old tractor for a relative newbie with no formal training?
 
I'd see if you could try each of them out. The best thing however would be to take a course at a community college or training center. Welding is very difficult to be self taught. It has been done but even a few hours of instruction from a qualified welder will take YEARS off the learning curve. It would be money well spent. As far as a machine goes, if you're already looking in the 5 to $600 range, I'd look for a used Miller Dial-arc 250 AC/DC or even better a Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DC. Both are superior to the ones you've listed. I'd also seriously consider one of the Everlast inverters like Puddles purchased for less than $350. 200 amp DC current at 60% duty cycle and uses a lot less power. 5 year warranty in the US too. Go back a few pages and there's pictures of how nice it can weld in the right hands. Google everlast generators. Dave
 

Do you really think you need AC with a machine of this level? I have one, an old, (1970's) Montgomery Ward's AC/DC never been on AC! If you're not going to Tig weld aluminum and you have DC why in the world would you use AC? Maybe someone can explain this to me? Oh don't go there about magnetism / arc blow, this isn't my first rodeo, I have enough tricks to get around arc blow. :wink:

I've been playing with this new PowerArc 200 the last few days. I'm even more impressed! I really hate to recommend it, only because I have no history with Everlast, so I have know idea how long it will last. I got Lincoln machines that are still running fine from the late 1940's, and mid 1950's. Once I got the hang of this little machine with 6010, (have to hold a little longer arc than I'm use to is all) it really stacks the iron! Right there with my mid 1950's SA-200, arguably if not the best, one of the best DC arcs on the planet.

This picture is the back side of a vertical uphill open root 3/8-inch V-groove plate, with 6010.


This is a horizontal 3/8-inch V-groove plate with 6010.




Here is what the machine looks like. :lol:

 
I put together a DC converter to use with my Lincoln 225 welder.Cost 100 bucks to build.Ive seen a simpler version on the internet that could be built for less than 50 bucks.When I want DC I get out the converter.Prices on the welders you mention vary quite a bit.Shop around before you buy.
 
In a fabrication shop DC is the only way to go. When repairing farm machinery that is rusty/painted etc. AC may be the better choice.
 
I have often wondered why it was that most guys I have seen welding will ALWAYS have their AC/DC machine set to DC.
Ok, so what is involved in building a DC converter? I am guessing high current diodes and perhaps filtering capacitors.........I have some background in electronics so I would have no problem putting it together.
 
(quoted from post at 07:47:57 12/03/10) In a fabrication shop DC is the only way to go. When repairing farm machinery that is rusty/painted etc. AC may be the better choice.
Click to expand...

When is it acceptable to weld painted or rusty material? I realize there are times when it is difficult or impractical to clean certain areas of equipment but I would think that 95% of the time you would be able to clean the metal somewhat.
 
Hi Inno,

I've owned both those welders. The amperage adjustment of the Hobart is by cranking a movable shunt through the transformer. I always found it to be less precise than you want this kind of system to be. Also, this kind of continuous adjustment welder can go out of adjustment. Lincoln buzz box welders I've used have had better arcs than the Hobart. The click-in settings might be limiting for an expert user, but they're probably as close as most non-experts will ever need. Also, that system is robust, and never goes out of adjustment.

I agree with Dave that the Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DC might be the best single phase transformer welder available. In western Washington they sell on Craigslist for about $250-$350, when they come up. They're big and very heavy, though, and that limits portability.

The inverter welder Puddles bought recently would be my first choice except that Everlast is only about 6 years old, and the support for Chinese made welders has been, in general, problematic. I'd be less comfortable with a more technologically complicated inverter welder from an unproven company if I wasn't going to be using it a whole bunch right away so if it was going to fail, it would do so while the warranty was good and the company was still around. A five year warranty might not mean so much if you only put a week's worth of use on it in that amount of time.

Good luck, Stan
 
If the purpose is to burn through the rust and/or paint, I don't see where AC would be better. A 6010 on DC+ has more penetration than 6011 on AC. Actually any rod has more penetration on DC+ than AC. Still you want to clean the area as good as possible first. Dave
 
Puddles, you didn't fill the craters on your weld. LoL I'm sure you would have for a bend test. Those are good 6010 beads though. Have you experimented with using the different cable connections on the machine? IE/ trying 6010 on the standard connection and/or 7018 on the 6010 connection? I'm wondering if there's much difference? I agree that inverters work awesome for stick welding. They also use a lot less power and can be carried almost anywhere. Dave
 
I agree with everything you said Stan. I know Everlast is a new company, but around $300 for a machine thats arc rivals an SA200 is hard to beat. I do think inverters have to be treated better. They're small and can be carried around so handle them with care. Dave
 
(quoted from post at 13:51:27 12/03/10) Puddles, you didn't fill the craters on your weld. LoL
Click to expand...

I angled back into the puddle and jammed the rod in close, then held there for a second or two, just running too hot I guess. :oops:

Hey Dave I just got offered $3,700.00 for my Red Face! :shock:
 
I have no doubt you could pass a 6010 horizontal weld test. Just giving you a hard time.:wink:

The 66? It looks better than new. I bet if you advertised it, you'd get $5000 or more. My former neighbor sold his rebuilt short hood for $5500 in about 2003 or 2004. He wanted to keep his truck but the guy that bought the welder made him a good offer on the truck($12,000 I think). He bought a new classic diesel welder (and fancy new diesel truck) but said it wasn't as nice on pipe as his is old stubby. He did a lot of pipeline work. Did you experiment with different connections on the new inverter yet? Dave
 

According to the local repair station there is a new pipeline going in south of Stan, a lot of pipeliners are making their way north getting ready for work. A guy brought in his XMT 304, and Pipe Pro to be worked on, seen my 1966 setting there, and asked about it. Owner of the shop said he doubted I'd sell. Guy said he would go as high as $3,700.00 Owner told me not to let it go for less than $4,000.00! Not bad for a $200.00 machine, and a $200.00 paint job! :lol:

I'll try to remember tomorrow morning to try the different connection on the Everlast.
 
Maybe the guy offering $3700 was trying to pull a fast one on you? Somehow I don't think that's going to happen. Dave
 
Here on the west coast these machines are almost worthless, now the Midwest is totally a different story! Out here not much use for portable CC machines, not a lot of pipeline work. Majority of the structural work is under FEME codes 267, 288, and 353 which require CV machines to run wire. Stick welders just can't compete with wire in the structural world.

If I was willing to sell that machine I'd be all over that $3,700.00! I'll bet anything the guy who made the offer is up from the Midwest, and knows $3,700.00 for that machine would be a deal for him.
 
(quoted from post at 16:01:07 12/03/10) I agree with everything you said Stan. I know Everlast is a new company, but around $300 for a machine thats arc rivals an SA200 is hard to beat. I do think inverters have to be treated better. They're small and can be carried around so handle them with care. Dave
Click to expand...

This interests me. Just when I thought I had it nailed down to two different models :roll:
For the price it just might be the ticket. I won't be using it every day, or even for weeks at a time although if I had it I would be looking for things to weld with it. At any rate, I likely wouldn't wear it out.
There was a course offered at our local community college a year or so ago on welding techniques for the beginner/handyman. I should have taken it then I guess. I will call and see if they are offering it again.
I did a bit of (very poor) welding in my teens and early twenties with an old AC225 that my Dad had. He never had any instruction either but managed to get by. Certainly not great welds but the type of stuff he was working on didn't matter. My brother got the welder and after he had moved into a newer house with attached garage I didn't figure he'd be using it so I asked him if I could get it from him. He told me that it was just a piece of junk and it didn't work properly so he got rid of it. That really ticked me off because I know there are parts available for them and that they are a REALLY good old welder and worth rebuilding. His wife likes him not to have any "junk" around.
 
I've read a little about Fema's earthquake requirements for welding but what is CC & CV? Thanks.
 

Dave I did a little experimenting as per your request.
I didn't really see a whole lot of difference with 7018 running on the 6010 port, but there was quite a difference with 6010 on the non-6010 port. I had a hard time keeping the arc going, I'm sure you can tell the difference in the quality of the bead in the first picture.
The weld on top was done with 1/8-inch 10PPlus on the non-6010 port. The bottom weld was run on the 6010 port.


This is 7018 plate, the upper weld was done on the 6010 port, the lower weld was done on the non-6010 port. I could live with the arc with 7018 on the 6010 port, but I sure didn't like the arc with 6010 on the non-6010 port!




bc CC = constant current used for stick welding, and Tig welding when welding steel, and stainless steel. You can run some dual shield wires, and gas less fluxcore wire, but not under any FEMA codes.

CV = constant voltage, really need this for Mig welding, you can get away with CC and Mig if you run 1/16-inch wire, and very high AMPS, and voltage, but it's no fun.
 
CC is constant current used for stick welding. CV is constant voltage used for wire feed welding(MIG). CC can be used for some wire feed welding but only at higher volts but CV can't be used for stick welding. CC starts with a high open circuit voltage and drops to a lower voltage when welding starts. CV voltage starts at the lower voltage and basically stays about the same. It can vary a little bit depending on a couple of things. Some CV machines have a slope control for different materials like stainless steel. Slope refers to the volt/amp curve or voltage drop from open circuit(before welding) to the voltage when welding. A CC machine has a steep slope(80V to 24V) where a CC machine usually has a flatter slope (24V to 18V). On a CC machine the amperage is set and basically stays the same but the voltage drops. On a CV machine the volts is set and basically stay the same but the amperage changes with the wire feed speed. Dave
 
That is a big difference with the 6010. I wonder if has higher open circuit volts or something on the 6010 port? It's nice to know that the 6010 port isn't a gimmick, especially on an inexpensive welder. If I was looking for an electric machine, I'd sure consider that Everlast. You sure can't argue the weld quality is lacking. Thanks for doing that Puddles. I bet you could sell that Everlast for more than you paid if you showed the welds it could do to someone who's not familiar with Everlast. Very impressive! Dave
 

They tell me it has 70-OCV, what the curve is I have know idea.
For $315.00 FOB my front porch I consider it a throw away machine. If it last me 2 to 3-years I'd be happy, but it has a 5-year warranty.
Speaking of OCV, Dave why does my SA-200s that put out 40-OCV weld 6010 so well, when everybody says 6010 need high OCV? Electricity just goes over my head! :?

Inno I understand Everlast has a sales division in Canada, maybe shipping won't be to bad. :wink:
 
I thought SA200's are around 55 to 90 OCV? I think OCV depends on the machine. I've used Miller XMT 304's that list around 60 OCV but the rod almost starts by itself. I've used buzz boxes with 72 OCV that I wanted to beat with a big hammer because they wouldn't hold an arc.

Everlast has a Canadian division(everlast generators.ca) but the prices are a little higher and the warranty is only 3 years. I still think they're very reasonably priced though for what you get. Dave
 
(quoted from post at 13:56:10 12/04/10) I thought SA200's are around 55 to 90 OCV?
Click to expand...
All mine say 40-OCV on the faceplate, but I was just told at the repair station they put out 100 to 105 at max amps.
 
Hi Puddles,

Do you take that to mean 100 to 105 volts OCV when the machine is set for max amps? But only 40 volts at lower settings? If that's right, then I know a lot less about how welders work than I thought I did.

I've got a Chinese made 80 amp inverter welder on which I measured the OCV at 37.5 volts, and it's virtually impossible to get it to strike a 3/32 6010 or 7018. At 8 lbs it's so convenient that I'm always trying to overlook the fact that it's terrible to weld with.

Stan
 
(quoted from post at 15:18:47 12/04/10)
Inno I understand Everlast has a sales division in Canada, maybe shipping won't be to bad. :wink:
Click to expand...

I'm right on the border and have a friend in MN that I can ship to. I can drive from my house to the United States in about 10-15 minutes. Even though they have a division in Canada and our $ is pretty much at par right now it's still almost always cheaper to purchase from the US.
 
I think the 40 volt rating is part of the duty cycle rating. 60% Duty Cycle at 200 amps at 40 volts. I've read a brochure about another Lincoln machine(compared to a Miller) where they referred to it as Lincoln plus rated because it achieved the Duty Cycle rating at higher volts than than the NEMA required rating. I'm thinking it has something to do with the total watts it will meet the Duty Cycle at instead of just the amps. I don't know if you could have 40 arc volts while stick welding, maybe? I always thought arc volts were around 24. Maybe on a load bank they can turn the volts up? Dave
 
OK I looked at a manual for an SA200. I couldn't copy and paste it but it says, "This welder is NEMA rated at 28 arc volts on a 60% Duty Cycle(it also has the added capacity to be rated 200 amps at 40 volts)". I can't find where it says the OCV range but I think it is somewhere in the 55 to 95 range + or -. I think the 40 volts on the face plate is being confused for open circuit volts. Dave
 
On the brochure for a new Pipeliner it says Lincoln plus rated 200A/40V/60%. Nema rating 200A/28V/60%. I think the 40 volts on the face plate is confusing. Dave
 
Only the fine current control has to be at maximum to get the most OCV. The coarse range could be set anywhere. Dave
 
(quoted from post at 20:41:01 12/04/10) Only the fine current control has to be at maximum to get the most OCV. The coarse range could be set anywhere. Dave
Click to expand...

I wish we could do multiple quotes on this site, make it a lot easier to answer everybody!
Right down the line, first question:

Stan when he told me the SA-200s put out 100 to 105 OCV we were talking about the machine being on a load bank. So I don't know exactly what he was trying to say, load bank only, or working situation. Let me explain my relationship with these repair techs, they know everything they teach me cost them money! So they are reluctant to explain things in too much detail!
Don't know if I could put up with a machine like you have, I don't have a lot of patience with welding machines, even less when I was making a living with them!

Inno I think I'd have your buddy buy the machine and use his address. Don't know why you Canadians would get the short end of the stick with the warranty! What is their mind set, Canadians are harder on machines than Americans? Just doesn't make sense to me at all!

Dave I think you're onto something there. Back in the days before SAM-400s and Trailblazer 55Ds I always tired to grab an SAE-400. Reason being, a lot easier to find the sweet spot. Either with wire or stick. The SAE machines have infinite amp settings, (left hand dial). SA-??? machines and all of the Miller machines I'd seen had taps / lockable amp settings. When running an SAE-??? I could set the amps exactly where I wanted them, and use the fine tune dial, (right side) like a dig / arc force. If I was running flat welds I'd set the fine tune dial high, and get a wet / flowing puddle, if running horizontal I'd back off the fine tune dial a little and dry the puddle up. Vertical welding I'd back off the dial more and dry the puddle out some more. Now this is playing with the OCV right?
 
The SAE machines had the most adjustable OCV of any machine but the SA 200 still has adjustable OCV. (A Miller does too but it's a different animal from a DC generator) That's why the amp ranges overlap. Depending on the type of rod or position, you could burn near the top of one range with higher OCV or the lower end of next range with lower OCV with the same amps. I wish I still had my book from school. There was a whole section on setting dual continuous control machines (SAE Lincolns). I think the manual for an SA 200 explains it a little bit. I bet the manual for an SAE 400 has a better explanation. Changing OCV just a little can make a big difference. That's why the new pipeliners have the custom arc feature to change the engine speed. It changes the OCV. The older red faces and short hoods were still better but I think had more copper or something that Lincoln doesn't want to put on new machines. Probably for cost reasons. Dave
 
Hi Puddles,

I don't know how to do single, much less multiple, quotes on this site. Is it something in Modern View which doesn't apply in Classic View? I often see a posting which begins with the italicized message, "Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see". (Notice that although I copied and pasted that from the head of your posting, the italics didn't survive.) I also noticed that although your response was to Inno, the information the site gave was, "In Reply to: Choice between two welders posted by J.Wondergem on December 02, 2010 at 20:37:03:" Not Inno, but J. Wondergem.

Anyway, here's what I do to post things the site won't let me post (formatting, I mean, not content.) I open a text editor, like Wordpad, which is more primitive but easier to use than MS Word, and compose my whole message there if it's long, or simply use it as an intermediate location to copy and paste outside material that I want to incorporate in my message. Another way to accomplish much the same thing would be to open a second copy of Internet Explorer, my web browser, so that I could go to other sites to find information without losing a posting I've started. There's a danger of slowing down my computer by doing that, but the main reason I don't do it is because I don't think of it. It's easier for me to do what's familiar even if it isn't demonstrably superior.

One other habit I've fallen into before I click "Preview Your Reply" is to right click on my message, click Select All, then Copy. That way, if there's a problem with the server or with this site that sends my message off into cyberspace before I get it posted, I don't lose the whole thing. That happened to me a few times, and always when I'd really put some effort into it, never when the message was just a sentence or two long.

All the best, Stan
 
Dave,

This is something I'd like to understand better so I'm going to pose a few statements, and ask a few questions in an attempt to get it clear in my mind. It isn't my purpose to dispute what you have said.

Miller's site says this about OCV: "Open-Circuit Voltage (OCV) - As the name implies, no current is flowing in the circuit because the circuit is open. The voltage is impressed upon the circuit, however, so that when the circuit is completed, the current will flow immediately."

I thought that OCV was the voltage that exists when the circuit is open, but the instant an arc is struck, the voltage changes to whatever voltage is appropriate to that process, modified by factors such as arc length in SMAW, or voltage setting in (CV) GMAW, among others.

Miller's website says this about the Dig setting on welders which have that capability: "Dig - Also called Arc Control. Gives a power source variable additional AMPERAGE [My emphasis] during low voltage (short arc length) conditions while welding. Helps avoid “sticking” Stick electrodes when a short arc length is used."

This makes it seem to me that the voltage adjustment would be for the voltage during welding, which is not the OCV. It must be possible to design welders which have adjustable OCV, but I can't understand what purpose would be served. If OCV is merely the voltage which establishes the arc, and is instantly replaced by operating voltage, what would be the benefit of low OCV if higher OCV is available?

Stan
 

Stan I always use the modern view, it's closer to all the other sites I frequent. I have to admit I have the most trouble with this site. If it wasn't for the fine / knowledgeable people here I think I'd leave. The software they use here must be the lowest version on the net, I don't have any trouble with any of the welding, truck, and other tractors sites, I visit everyday. But this one can be a nightmare!
 

Just to put my 2 cents worth to this topic. Try and find a welder that does ac/dc settings that you can have reverse polarity on. Hobart is the home owners version of Miller. If you take a close look most of their parts have the miller name on them. If you plan on mig welding reverse polarity dc is key, along with prepwork a rust free surface eliminates possible porisity. I use co2 gas and flux core whenever possible. If you want to eliminate slag entirely then use solid wire. as far as stick welding goes the 70 series and stainless the rods should be stored in an oven. the 60 series does not require this. 6011 is best for all position welds as it freezes the fastest. 7018 takes some practice with to get a flawless bead. Get the biggest welder that you can afford as they can always be turned down but a small one will burn up if used to often at the highest setting. I burned up 2 110 mig welders that way. with mig welding multiple string welds are stronger than a single heavy weave bead as perosity tends to be caught in the heavier weave beads. If you get a big enough stick welder, you can possibly carbon arc with them. Carbon arcing is an excellent option since you could remove welds with out having much of an effect on the parent material. With some practice you will find yourself prefering it to the torch.
 
If you get a good DC welder, the LAST thing you want to do is start gouging with it. Air arcing is an EXCELLENT way to ruin an otherwise good welding machine. I've seen several SAE 400's burned up from gouging and they're about as heavy duty as you can get. MIG has to be run on reverse polarity. Some flux-core runs on straight and some runs on reverse. Only XX18 rods require a rod oven when doing code work. Dave
 
The welders that I ran for the rail car repair shops arc gouged just fine even after 10 years of heavy use. Granted that these were 440v three phase welders. I am not saying that I know everything about welding far from it, but ten years as a certified welder/inspector I know that there are many rods that require being stored in ovens. Most packages either say it out right or the distributor should know. All the welding rods we used with the exception of 6011, 6014 and carbon rods were stored in ovens. I myself prefer to arc gouge as I can take a weld off smothly with out affecting the parent materials allowing me to reweld it with proper welds and very little prepwork.
thanks.
 
From an SAE Lincoln manual:

"Open circuit volts controls the arc characteristics". Medium to high OCV gives a soft but-tery type arc while low OCV gives a "snappy" digging arc".

I don't think all arc force controls work the same way though. Some are just a hot start that gives a little more amps when you strike an arc. Low end machines don't usually have adjustable OCV or arc force. Some have hot start and I don't know what's different on the 6010 port on the Everlast machine that Puddles has. It makes a big difference though. Dave
 
I had a longer explanation but couldn't figure out why it wouldn't post. I finally discovered I had to spell it but-tery to get it to post.LoL

Miller doesn't make DC generators so I think that might make a difference in how their arc force works in comparison to Lincoln's. It might also be possible that lower OCV volts does give more amps in a short arc length condition. OCV and its affect on amps and arc length might go hand in hand but Miller just explains it different than Lincoln. I wonder how Hobart used to explain their arc controls? DC machines do tend to need a lot less OCV volts to strike an arc compared to AC machines. Dave
 
Gouging doesn't need as smooth an arc as welding does. Most shops doing lots of gouging have a dedicated machine(s) for it. Have you watched the cables when gouging? You can see them jump when the arc is struck and tighten up. The duty cycle is less when gouging because it's almost a direct short. Gouging works great but is the absolute hardest application on a machine and can affect the welding performance of the machine. I certainly wouldn't recommend someone pay the extra money to get a good DC machine and then start gouging with it. If you need to gouge a weld out, you can get a gouging tip for a cutting torch and save your welder.

I worked in Vessel shops that did stainless and still only had 7018 in the rod oven. As long as SS rods are kept dry and away from moisture they don't need an oven. That's why most stainless rods come in a plastic tube with a replaceable lid. The tube would melt in a rod oven. 7018 comes in a cardboard box. Code shops put it directly into the oven when they take it out of the box.

I don't know what shops you worked in but 6011 and 6014? There were only 3 basic rods used in any of the shops I ever worked in. 6010, 7018 or other XX18 rods and 7024. Why use 6011 if you have a DC machine? I didn't know there was such a rod as 6014? Dave
 

According to the Lincoln Bible.

“All Stainless-steel shielded metal-arc electrode coverings are of the low-hydrogen type and must be protected from moisture pickup. Normally, electrodes packaged in hermetically sealed containers can be stored for several months without deteriorating. However, after the container is opened the coating begins to absorb moisture and, depending on the ambient air conditions, may need to be reconditioned after only four hours of exposure.

Usually, redrying at 500°F for 1-hour restores the electrode to its original condition, and storing in a holding oven at 300°F is satisfactory. Due to difference in material and processing, the supplier should be consulted if large amounts of electrodes are involved.”


There was a very heated discussion on the Miller board 4 or 5-years ago about carbon arcing. Myself and a few other old weldors stated they would never do it with their machines. Some stated that they had even seen the cranks broken in engine drives from carbon arcing! A Miller tech chimed in and basically said it was an old wife's tale that carbon arcing would have any effect on a welding machine! I say BS, I've seen it and welded with machines that had seen a steady diet of carbon arcing! Very hard to convince me of something differently than what I've seen and done, you'll need to pack a very large lunch, and be ready for a long argument! :wink:
 

I scanned this right out of a Lincoln manual for an SA-200. I guess you can change the OCV.
currentcontrol.jpg
 
I know SS are low hydrogen type rods but I heard somewhere that they aren't nearly as susceptable to moisture pick up as mild steel low hydrogen rods. Other than XX18 and SS, I don't what other rods would ever need an oven. The original comment said for 70XX rods which could include a lot of rods that don't need an oven.

Can I guess which welder tech said gouging doesn't effect a machine? Is it the same one that said you should turn a machine on(especially an inverter) but not use it for a day to balance it and that's why a lot of new machines don't weld properly? There is a reason shops that do a lot of gouging have dedicated machines for it. You know why they call AC machines buzz boxes, you should hear an SAE 400(3 phase) cranked up with an air arc. I could see how a crank could break on an engine drive. For occassional gouging a 300 or 400 amp 3 phase machine might be OK. Even though the literature says a machine like an Idealarc 250 can be used for gouging, I'd never risk ruining an excellent machine like that. I've had to use machines that did a lot of gouging too and you won't get an argument from me. Dave
 

I've heard so many arguments both ways about stainless steel rods being stored in an oven. I've also heard they should only be stored at 160-degrees max or the flux will fall off. It's almost like nobody really knows! I have some stainless steel rods that I bought 25-years ago, never seen an oven, used some last summer they ran like the day I bought them. That doesn't mean they'd pass a bend test either! But they ran fine. :lol:
 
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