O/T Optics for a 5.56 semi-auto

So I'm thinking of getting a semi-auto for obvious reason
(looking at the S&W MP15) and I see alot of red dot sights on that
type of rifle....why?

I've only shot rifles with standard type scopes on them, what are
the advantages of a red dot sight that makes them popular on
the semi-autos.

Other than price, guy told me a decent red dot was about
$149.00.

Are these optics just a dot without any magnification? and if that
is the case what is the point?

Thanks for any input on the optics and also any input on
manufacturers of the rifles, S&W, Bushmaster, Stag arms, DPMS
and others are available in this area.

A red dot is fine if you want to use the rifle for close range. At distance your average red dot will not give you the precision you want. A dot will wash out in bright sun so you can't see it(even the $200 ones). Virtually all cheap dots provide no magnification. It is a mall ninja thing, they want to look like they belong a SEAL team with all their rails, lights, dots, and lasers. If you want to drop the coin on a real ACOG, that is fine, most don't.

It is a rifle, use it like one, install a good quality rifle scope, you will be much happier in the long run. A 1.5-5 or 2-7 would be a good choice. The Nikon Pro-staff 2-7x32 shotgun scope is a great scope for that application and is about $130. On 2x it is every bit as fast as a dot, on 7x it will still take a ground hog at 300+ yards.

The M&P is a fine rifle for the money, I have seen them recently for as little as $600 recently, couple that with the warranty and it is a no brainer.

hard to beat the standard peep site----red dot for quick target acquisition--close range.

I have an M-15 Armalite. Very nice rifle. .223 caliber. I have a Nikon 3x9 x 50 scope on it. I paid $170 for it. I kinda wish I would have looked for and found a BDC reticle scope. I think the best scopes are the Trijicon and Svarski (wrong spelling) $600 and up, Never really priced them cause I am not a competition shooter. As far as the red dot....I cant give an answer, I dont know of anyone that has one. A good friend of mine has the S/W M-P 15 rifle you are talking about, nice, lightweight in .223. He paid $800 after $100 mail in rebate. He also has the little laser mounted on the side of the rifle, cool. All the laser is for is quickly finding the target in close quarters, if you have to use it as home defense.
What is the obvious reason for getting an AR style of rifle, in your opinion?
I think all AR style of rifles are good as long as they are US made or Swiss or German. (dont buy the Oriental imports) If you want the best and can afford to spend $1250 get the Sig Sauer in 5.56, super nice, SWAT team looking stuff. I have fired 5 of the AR style rifles and all had crosshair type scopes, I have never used a red-dot sight.
I have fired Armalite, S/W, Remington's new .223, Lewis machine too, (nice) and a Colt, Nice. All of these were .223 caliber.
Money of course plays a factor and my rifle and scope total $ 1,300. Not cheap but, Fun.

Red dot, other dot sights developed from Scandinavian moose hunting sights used in lower light on moving target, hunter on stand during a drive or stillhunting in timber. Improvement over the open sights or peep with front blade to be seen to get on target, usually used with both eyes open instead of one eye squint. Single dot on target quicker than luminesence dots on front blad and back sghts- the three dot sights seen on pistols or the AK clones. Police tactical needs sometimes similar to the hunters needs and that was next usage, publicity helped and the restriction in some places for lazer sights meant the red dots were usable legal. 100 meter, low light and maybe moving target snap shot was what it was designed for and it does work mostly. Marlin 336 in .35 for deer and hog hunting used by former neighbor had dot sight usable with eyeglass"s. Tasco(?) has a moderate priced 3x30 longer eye relief but stil short scope originally meant for shotgun slug guns that can be mounted on M16/AR15 patterns- sort of copy of Swartovski (?) similar power that was used for hunting in moderate light conditions and tactical work in Europe- price is less than 1/2. Some people locally using it on .223 for deer (legal cartridge here) in Wisconsin mixed timber and open meadows. There is a variation of that scope with a illuminated dot legal in some states for night hunting varmits- used here for city deer control by DNR contract hunters. Have a politicians car hit a deer in city and then baits, jacklights, lazers and lighted sights and silencers become "legal for control purposes for public safety" RN

Great info so far, Thank-you

It is sounding more and more like a rifle scope situation to me
than the red dot.

What is an ACOG?

The reasons to me to get an AR type semi is that say versus the
Savage 111 , 25.06 that I have, semi vs. bolt, 30 rounds vs. 3,
short and easy to use vs. long and cumbersome, cheap easy to
get ammo vs. expensive ammo and again the overwhelming
advantage of have 30 rounds available in semi-auto form is just
fantastic versus any bolt action.

I, by the way, hunt deer (which I don't do alot of) with a 30-30
and the new ballistic tip ammo. There are not a lot of long shot
opportunities on my KY farm and I think that the 30-30 will do
the trick.

(quoted from post at 18:25:26 09/19/11)
What is an ACOG?

Click to expand...

$1000 illuminated recticle scope. They are worth every penny if you want the best, but they are expensive

ACOG stands for Advanced combat optical gunsight. Developed by Trijicon. Search Yahoo and type in ACOG to get all info. I have never used one but it is supposed to illuminate objects or something and I am sure it is expen$ive. $300 buys a nice Leupold scope.

(quoted from post at 13:55:20 09/19/11) So I'm thinking of getting a semi-auto for obvious reason
(looking at the S&W MP15) and I see alot of red dot sights on that
type of rifle....why?

I've only shot rifles with standard type scopes on them, what are
the advantages of a red dot sight that makes them popular on
the semi-autos.

Other than price, guy told me a decent red dot was about
$149.00.

Are these optics just a dot without any magnification? and if that
is the case what is the point?

Thanks for any input on the optics and also any input on
manufacturers of the rifles, S&W, Bushmaster, Stag arms, DPMS
and others are available in this area.

Click to expand...

Aim dot sights are built for very fast target acquisition in tactical situations. The Military has raised the average qualification scores a good deal with the issue of the aim/red dot sights so they do work. I do agree with the comment about "Mall Rangers" or "Tactical Teds" being the most common owners. They are the same guys/gals who buy the tactical stock and fore arms designed to mount about anything. I even saw a guy with a Ruger 10/22 with tactical collapsing stock complete with a plastic bayonet, aim dot, lazer and mounted flash light. I did mount one on a 30.30 for my FIL the last few years he hunted becasue he was having trouble picking up the iorn sights fast enough. He could see well enough to pass a driving test, just being in his 70's was having trouble with the sights at dawn and dusk. He got a couple of deer with it.

The military is teaching triple tap with the M16A1/M4 that shoots the improved 556 that has a slightly larger case and heavier bullet (son just went through infantry school this spring). So that should tell you that it really isn't effective for big game. If you do decide to hunt with it get ammo with balistic tips, military surplus is ball and can/will ice pick through.

The 556 round is very popular and with import ammo it's cheap enough to shoot without worrying about cost or reloading. It's also a heck of a varmint round. If that's your intention then go with a scope. If it's a plinker then you may wish to try an aim/red dot (you can get a cheap one for 30 bucks, they don't last long but should be able to tell if it's something you like, IMO I hate telling someone what to do with a fire arm as what I tell you will be from my perspective). Unless you are a varmint hunter or paper shooter a scope on the is kinda a waste on the AR15 based rifles.

Rick.

I have a Bushmaster XM15 shorty carbine with the regular military sight that I have been real happy with. I figured that was a good farm rifle, no scope to bang around and durable enough to be carried often in a pick-up and tractor. Sure is fun to shoot.

What is an ACOG ? About $1500-1800 . Cabalas and BassPro shops carry them now . Son has one on one of his AR's ,very cool ,,,I mean very ,very cool !
I have a Bushnell Halosight on my .44 mag pistol . pretty sweet .

A very good friend of mine has a 10-22 with
everything but the bayonet. I have ordered all that
stuff for mine also. With a 30 rd clip they are a
awsum coon and skunk gun. LOL Vic

Rick, where are you getting your information. The new 5.56 round does not have a larger case. If it did how could you chamber it in the millions of existing M16s, M4s and SAWs. Nor is it heaver. The new M855A1 weighs the same 62 grains and the old M855. In fact the M855A1 has gone lead free. As for the triple tap, seems contrary to everythin I ever heard. The army has done away with the 3 round burst limiter and they say the M855A1 is as effective as the 7.62. Also it is not correct to call the AGCO or Aimpoint COMP4s a "red dot site" and most certianly no one is going to buy that kind of preformance for $200.

I have never shot a deer with a 223 but I have taken many wild pigs with one. Winchester 64 grain Power Points kill like Thors hammer.

Scott,
1st Battalion 33rd Armoured, 3rd Amoured Division, 1982-1985, M60A3 crewmember

I shoot a Colt H-bar AR-15 with a 6 1/2x18 Leupold tactical scope. Great varmint rig.

I don't dwell much on using it for self defense.

Plan A is not to get in that situation, Plan B is to do it at long range, Plan C , if it happens close, is to use my Kimber 45 ACP that I do shoot regularly. Killed many a hog with it.

I'm assuming you are speaking of an AR-15 since you said 5.56 semi-auto.

You get what you pay for so spend $149 on a red dot and you get junk.

The point is that red dots are made to put on assault rifles aka AR-15. In the context of assault rifles, they are used in close quarters at ranges of 50 yards or less in most cases.

Red dots imho are great for AR's. No parallax, night vision equipped, can flip up a rear sight and see the front sight through the red dot.

Vortex makes a good quality red dot in the $250 range. Sight it in, put the red dot on something at 50 yards and your dead on, put it on something at 100 yards and hit your target within 2 moa.

You can put a long range scope on a 5.56 semi-auto if you want. It's all about what you are doing with the gun.

Ever tried a peep sight? you might be surprised......

(quoted from post at 19:24:30 09/19/11) Rick, where are you getting your information. The new 5.56 round does not have a larger case. If it did how could you chamber it in the millions of existing M16s, M4s and SAWs. Nor is it heaver. The new M855A1 weighs the same 62 grains and the old M855. In fact the M855A1 has gone lead free. As for the triple tap, seems contrary to everythin I ever heard. The army has done away with the 3 round burst limiter and they say the M855A1 is as effective as the 7.62. Also it is not correct to call the AGCO or Aimpoint COMP4s a "red dot site" and most certianly no one is going to buy that kind of preformance for $200.

I have never shot a deer with a 223 but I have taken many wild pigs with one. Winchester 64 grain Power Points kill like Thors hammer.

Scott,
1st Battalion 33rd Armoured, 3rd Amoured Division, 1982-1985, M60A3 crewmember

Click to expand...

Scott nope when they issued the A2 the case was a bit longer and now with the SAW they have upped the bullet weight too. That's why US military ammo wound up on the surplus market for the 556. The had to up the round if I remeber correctly from 55 to 62 gain and make the case a bit larger to get NATO to adopt the 556. About the same time that we went to 9MM. About the only users of the NATO 556 is the military. The civilian market never changed because there were so many 556's aready out there. When you with 1/33Ar I was 3rd ACR.

Rick...Armor crewman 1974-1996! M60A1/A1RISE, M60A3, M1, M1A1

Sorry, exactly the same case measurments. The M16A1 I started out with back then used a M193 55gr bullet, same as used in Vietnam. When the M16A2 came along had a much faster twist in the barrrel and stabilized the heaver bullet 62 grain bullet. This was adopted about 1980 or so. The change to the heavier bullet started 40 years ago. NATO called it the SS109 and the US Army called it the M855. You could feed the M16A1 the M855 but it was not accurate. No problems using the M193 in a M16A2. If the new round had a larger case it would not have chambered in the older rifles, and it does. In the spring of 2010 the M855A1 was adopted by the US Army. The Marines couldn't wait and earlier did something different.

For about 20 years I shot a AR 15 in CMP High Power Service Rifle competations. I know the rifle and its history well.

Also, I am sure the US dosen't release any surplus ammo on the civilian market anymore. Everything has to be demilled. The stuff advertised as surplus is either from foreign sources or some manufactures over run.

So you did REFORGER. That was a great time to be living in Germany, 3 and 1/2 marks to the dollar.

(quoted from post at 14:24:54 09/20/11) Sorry, exactly the same case measurments. The M16A1 I started out with back then used a M193 55gr bullet, same as used in Vietnam. When the M16A2 came along had a much faster twist in the barrrel and stabilized the heaver bullet 62 grain bullet. This was adopted about 1980 or so. The change to the heavier bullet started 40 years ago. NATO called it the SS109 and the US Army called it the M855. You could feed the M16A1 the M855 but it was not accurate. No problems using the M193 in a M16A2. If the new round had a larger case it would not have chambered in the older rifles, and it does. In the spring of 2010 the M855A1 was adopted by the US Army. The Marines couldn't wait and earlier did something different.

For about 20 years I shot a AR 15 in CMP High Power Service Rifle competations. I know the rifle and its history well.

Also, I am sure the US dosen't release any surplus ammo on the civilian market anymore. Everything has to be demilled. The stuff advertised as surplus is either from foreign sources or some manufactures over run.

So you did REFORGER. That was a great time to be living in Germany, 3 and 1/2 marks to the dollar.

Click to expand...

Oh yea a few REFORGERs, did my first tour in Germany from 76-78, 2 year unaccompanied tour. 2nd one was from 83-87 after being with 3rd ACR from 81-83. I've even got the 1K and 50 meter borders signs!



They were free for the taking when I was on my last tour with 2nd ACR when they disbanded. Sqd Commander let each soldier have one each if they wanted em. Most people passed on em and they went to PDO as scrap. My last tour was from 91-93, started with 2nd ACR and finished with 8th ID 5/77 Armor.

I went and checked, yer right on the 556, Being on tanks didn't have much to do with the AR15 based rifles. When they issued the 16A2s we were told that it had a longer casing and that you could not swap ammo in them. There was some US military 556 ammo on the market a few years ago with 55 gr bullet. I was told that it was surplus from the old 55 grain stuff. You were on tanks you know we didn't play with those pea shooters much!

Rick

I guess I got in to shooting AR15s because the local gun club did not have a class for 105mm Guns.

Cool stuff from the cold war. Treasure it. It must have been interesting being there at the end.

One last M16A1 story. After leaving the Army I assumed I would never see one again. During the Rodney King trail I was a Deputy in a northern Califoria Sheriff Dept when the riots hit LA. We had shotguns, 9mm Pistols and 357 Revolvers, and a few bolt rifles in 308.

After the riots the state was flooded with M16A1s and cases of the 55 grain ammo and made avaliable for local law enforcement, direct from Anniston AL. All we had to have was a training program, use policy and a place to keep it. Our amourer and Senior Firearms instructor was a former Marine that spent time in Vietnam. He had to have it. We recieved more M16s than we had deputies. Most were brand new, never fired. We had a lot of fun shooting that stuff up, we called it training.

I wouldn't be supprised if some of that 55 grain ammo that is called surplus wasn't some of the stuff transfered to local police depts.

Scott yea they seem kinda reluctant to let a guy have a 105MM or 120MM in his gun safe :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


Rick .

Yep old tanker, just one more unreasonable restriction on our rights. You know all these guys here braging about their magnums or whatever, 400 yard long range shots, good optics and knock down power, they just don't have a clue !
Scott

(quoted from post at 15:08:29 09/21/11) Yep old tanker, just one more unreasonable restriction on our rights. You know all these guys here braging about their magnums or whatever, 400 yard long range shots, good optics and knock down power, they just don't have a clue !
Scott

Click to expand...

LOL Scott, last time I got to shoot gunnery on the plt battle run I took 2 moving tanks from my tank moving at 30MPH from the commnaders over ride.....at 2000 meters! Told my gunner it was my last gunnery and I was going to shoot a few!

Rick