liability... doing the right thing...

Anonymous-0

Well-known Member
sold my little tractor a couple weeks ago. Buyer test drove/checked everything out, I explained everything, all work /maintenance done, but told him he was buying a 47 year old machine and anything could happen. Few days ago, get a call that the tractor is shot and the headgasket is the problem. Will cost 2k to fix it. Called them back and asked what happened. Coolant empty, oil level overfull. Asked for grey foam and there was none. Said they only used the tractor once for ten minutes or so. Said OK, email me exactly what the problem is, who diagnosed it, and the hours off the meter. Haven't heard from them. Don't want to put it to anyone, but where would you draw the line? They signed a BOS that stated as inspected and no gaurantee. Tried to contact them again because a headgasket replacenent is 200 bucks max but they don't answer. Other issue, just so happens, it is a real good vet that we may need in the future.

Whatcha think?

Dave
 
All anyone here can offer is OPINIONS (some professionl, some educated, some lay, some ignorant, some neither, some good some bad, lol) but I reckon thats what youre lookin for so here goes:


The "law" pretty well defines "Legal Obligations" and if you sold something with no warranties expressed or implied and there was no fraud duress or undue influence THE LAW LIKELY WOULD NOTTTTTTTT HOLD YOU LIABLE

HOWEVER theres also moral obligations BUT ONLY YOU CAN DECIDE THAT NO ONE HERE. Typical of factors would be the need or desire for a future business relationship,,,,,,your good or bad name,,,,,,,,,reputation,,,,,,,,,,your own feelings

ALSO if you do decide to repair it (ONLY your choice, not ours) Id do it myself or hire your own mechanic that way it may only cost $300 versus $700.

Best wishes, the fact that youre at least pondering it even if theres no strict legal obligation shows you have good character.

John T
 
It wouldn"t matter what was discussed. Since he signed a paper that the tractor was purchased as-is, whatever is done is completely up to your discretion. Since you wish to remain friends I think I would look the tractor over and see if he did anything which might have caused it. If not I probably would offer to replace the head gasket or take the tractor back.
 
I would probably offer to split the cost of the repairs (and get a second/third estimate)... Just so there would be less hard-feelings...
8)
 
People say ALOT of things, no ones likes to own up to their mistakes. Their "repair estimate" makes me raise my eyebrows.If you made sure it was a good unit when you sold it, then it looks like the honest guy here is the one that sold it.

In my experience I had people come buy a tractor on a friday look it over, buy it. Complain on Monday that something was wrong with it and want their money back. 70 percent of the time it was something they did, and 30 perecnt was they got everything done around the house they needed a tractor for done over a weekend = free tractor rent.
 
Hey Dave, while I'll bow to John T on the legal aspect of things, as a mechanic by trade I will offer this advice. When it comes to how an machine got damaged, more often than not, the owner/operator will lie through their teeth, especially if they feel it's in their best interest to do so. I've seen engines run low on oil til they locked up where the owner/operator claimed the oil had just been checked. I've seen an 8V-71 Detroit with both heads cracked and the block split down both sides from the deck to the mains, NO coolant at all in the system, black nodules in the water jacket from the heat, yet "it never ran hot". I've seen worn bushings in the main drum shaft on a crane that had "a whole case of grease" used on them. Funny thing when I removed the grease lines they were full of the red grease I used to grease them and not a sign of the blue grease the machines owners used. Needless to say they didn't get the warranty repair they thought they were getting.

In your case the whole story you've been told just doesn't add up to me. The price they are giving sounds more like they want something more along the lines of a partial overhaul, not just a head gasket replaced. If the head gasket was bad the engine should have run hot before the guy shut it down. That is unless he got really lucky and it blew within a couple of minutes of shutting it down the one time he ran it. Really though, who buys a 'new' tractor and only runs it for ten minutes, especially over the course of several weeks? Most of the guys I know would have to be drug off of their 'new toy' and ten minutes wouldn't even begin to cover the time they spent on it joyriding, and showing it off to the wife and friends the day they got it home. Seriously, I doubt the guy spent his hard earned money for a 'new' tractor to just let it set for several weeks right after buying it.

That said, ten minutes of continuous use should have been enough for the engine to run hot. That's the only usage i can imagine because who is going to use a tractor multiple times for only a minute or two at a time??? So, like I said, unless the gasket blew just as the guy was shutting it down from it's one use he should have seen it overheat and shut it down from there. Then the coolant would be able to flow out of the coolant system and get into the oil and the head gasket and an oiul change would be all that was needed. NOW, if it was run for any length of time with coolant in the oil then there is the possibility of damage to the bearings, and that would require a rebuilt. If that's what happened then their continued use of the tractor after overheating and getting the coolant in the oil definately is not your problem.

OK, trying to write that all out is a bit difficult but hopefully you can get the point I'm trying to make. The point being that from a mechanics point of view, and having heard more 'fish stories' over the years than I care to remember, the guys whole story sounds way too fishy to me to be completely believable.

So, IF you feel you have a moral obligation and choose to help the guy out with the repair, and as John T said your not legally obligated to do so, I'd once again have something else typed up limiting the scope your liability to replacement of the head gasket only. I say this because there is no way you can know what was really done with the tractor, and as a result no way to know what other damage could have been done to the engine by their actions after the gasket blew.

Unfortunately, even with more paperwork, by obligating yourself to the head gasket the case could be made that your still taking responsibility to a problem you specifically released yourself of the liability from when you sold the machine in the first place. As bad as I hate to say it, this is one where I'd be as nice as possible and remind the guy that he tested the tractor, bought it "as-is" and signed a release stating such. So, while you feel bad about the problem he had, when he bought the tractor he bought both the good and the bad, and it's now his problem to fix just as it would have been yours to fix had you not sold it.

This is one thing I caution customers about al lthe time when they are lookint to replace a piece of machinery. They often feel that by buying another used machine that's in 'better shape' than theirs they are getting a deal. What most fail to realize is that regardless of how a machine looks or runs during the time they spend lookint at it prior to buying. Beyond that ANYTHING can go wrong with the 'new' machine just as ANYHTHING can go wrong with the one they already have. In the case of their own machine they know the history and can often predict problems accordingly while with a 'new' machine they know only what they are told and everything else is just guess work.

I guess ultimately it's all a case of you get what you pay for and that's what this guy got, a 47 year old, used tractor with all the associated problems it could possibly have. Problem is this guy sounds like he thinks he also bought the right for the previous owner to make repairs to his 'new' used tractor regardless of the paperwork he signed to the contrary. Beyond that, I wish I could help more, but when it comes down to a someone feeling a moral obligation -vs- an actual legal obligation, the choice as to what you do, and why, is all yours.
 
If you are so inclined to help, so as not to place you in liability, I would offer to help him find someone to repair it for less If you decide you would like to assume some of the costs, do it with the third party out of the goodness of your heart so make a deal with the person repairing the head gasket and yourself. Henry
 
We had a co-worker that going to use a track laying dynamometer and another co-worker told him he was going to get coolant since it was low
in the radiator. He never listened and drove that vehicle less than a mile and the engine seized. It was a V8 Cummins diesel and there
wasn't any parts from that engine that could be salvaged. The higher up's didn't believe that
and the engine was sent to Cummins Diesel in Baltimore. They had the same results. Since the driver worked on the bosses vehicles nothing was said to him. Hal
 
That's a old tractor, which means no warrenty, buyer/beware. You didn't try to cover something up, so it's just the way it goes sometimes.

I have a 65 JD 4020, this past summer I was bushhoggin and hit a small rut which caused the old brittle lift arm to break. Old tractors break down sittin in the shop. :shock:
 
Dave,"it's a real good VET?"The whole problem in a nut shell, borders on the absence of your Guardian Angel,and a spelling checker. Seems he vacated he premises when the tractor was removed, and when you forgot to use your "SPELL CHECKER" when you made the written statement of AS IS. See above from your post.It's a real good BET (not vet).Son says" you could have taken your puter out to the tractor then (with your spell checker)wrote out the agreement and the problem would have never festered and everything would have gone okey-dokey!!!From all the problems you are encountering may be related to the absence of a spell checker and a NEW GUARDIAN ANGEL LOL.Another solution is to avoid the new owners and if they do make contact with you,tell em "IT"S YOUR PROBLEM NOW, I HAD PROBLEMS WITH IT YEARS AGO, AND remember DAVE, K.I.S.S.Any way Davie, we still love ya, even with all your problems,REAL OR IMAGINARY. Got to go now and check my spelling!! HTH LEWIE
 
Hi John. Ya missed a crucial piece of advice. Relative to selling the tractor. Sure would have been better off ,if he let it go to a dealer(IE. ) swap it off on implements he could use, Then it would have been the dealers headache. what do ya think LOL? Regards, LOU- NOT LEWIE . p.s., Son says Davie could have pleaded ignorance lol.
 
When I was a tractor dealer I just assumed up front what I took in trade to be as is where is and didnt place much reliance on what was said to me about how good it was. It sort of "goes with the territory" as they say and you have to play the hand dealt you (dance with the one you brung) so I didnt complain when what I already considered as junk turned out to be junk. BUT IF I WAS PURPOSELY LIED TO THAT TENDED TO UPSET ME MORE but still go back to the above i.e. I did my own inspections and evaluations and if I messed up I paid for it and marked it down to experience.

John T
 
The way I see it. He knew what condition it was in. You told him all you knew about it. He signed the papers. So any problem is up to him. Find it hard to believe it over heated in ten minutes and blew the head gasket.But he bought it knowing what he was buying. So it is his problem.

Havbe you made that phone call yet.
 
(quoted from post at 15:14:07 11/22/11) Havbe you made that phone call yet.

Just hung up the phone..... Unbelievable people.Felt like I was talking to family.....
Got the info/update I was looking for. Their high spirits are just unbelievable.

Thanks for your help.
 
(quoted from post at 15:54:42 11/22/11) what would you do if you just bought it and this happened???

Prolly be aggravated but would answer the sellers questions and not ignore emails aimed at helping.....
 
It doesn't matter what you do to make the buyer aware that they are buying something that will likely need repairs. Once they buy it, they expect it to be warrantied for life. I once sold a 1988 S10 Jimmy. It had potential, but I was getting ready to transfer, and wasn't going to have time to work on it. I told a single mom, that if she didn't have someone to do repairs that she didn't want it. A man said he wanted to buy it to fix up for his new wife. He said he was the manager of a collision shop in town, and was fully aware that he was buying something that needed a lot of repairs. That is why I sold it to him for $800, even though it was fully loaded and had four wheel drive(which actually worked). He paid me in the morning and drove off with his project. That evening he called me to complain about getting ripped off. He said the window motor wasn't working. "You don't say?" I asked. Since it was the same day, I did ofer to give him his money back if he brought it back that evening, but I suppose he just wanted to whine at someone, cause he never did bring it back.
 
Felt like I was talking to family....

You know what they say about doing business with family... DON'T!!!!!

Yeah, they may be nice people, salt of the earth... but they managed to trash your tractor in a matter of TEN MINUTES!
 
(quoted from post at 17:44:32 11/22/11)
Felt like I was talking to family....

You know what they say about doing business with family... DON'T!!!!!

Yeah, they may be nice people, salt of the earth... but they managed to trash your tractor in a matter of TEN MINUTES!

Sorry.. was answering an unrelated question from Billy......

These folks aren't family.. Kinda thinking the silence may be because they did something stupid.... The ads I placed said that it was being sold as/is with no gaurantee as well as the BOS sale they signed, so when I asked them to give me the info (exactly what happened, the hour reading, and who diagnosed it/quoted repair costs) you'd think they'd jump on the possibility of some relief......
 
What did you sell the tractor for? If you sold it
for a premium price, then maybe you could offer to
pay $200 to $500 of the repair cost and/or parts. If
you decide to offer assistance, don't just pay the
buyer. Pay the shop/mechanic doing the repairs
directly. The same way as if you caused an accident
and were paying out of pocket for it. Of course the
buyer will exaggerate the cost to fix it.
 
Do whatever you think is right. Funny story I sold a deere 430 round baler to a guy as is for $3,500 a few years ago. He called me a few weeks later and said it worked great and he had made about 100 bales and broke a roller chain and wanted me to have it fixed for him. I told him no thanks,but he kept calling me so often to try to make me buy him a repair link I had to block his number.
 
Dad bought an all original sharp IH 706 years ago.Was told the tractor was 100%. We used it 10 hours and a rod broke and went thru the side of the block.Just one of them things that happens.You can go to the Dr for a checkup and die on the way home.Dad told people he sold tractors to that it is like your wife for better or worse and in sickness and health.
 
If you sold it "AS-IS" then you are not liable. IF you do "warranty" or pay anything then you maybe "implying warranty and then can be liable.

Had a tractor that Ie sold AS-IS. It used oil and I told the guy it did. The tractor blew a front tire when the guy unloaded at his house. HE brought the tire back and I had a used one that I give him. Three months later he calls and said the motor had locked up. I asked him if he had checked the oil in it. He told me no as it only needed changed every 100 hours so should he have checked it in between then??? Real city guy. I went and looked at the tractor it was out of oil. He had ran over a stump and broke the oil pan. I showed him what he had done and told him it was his cost to fix. He sued me for the cost of the repair bill,$2500. We went to court and I showed where he had signed that he had bought it AS-IS. The judge said I had implied warranty when I give him the used tire. I had to pay half the repair bill.

So you either should be ready to pay a lot of the bill or don't pay anything.
 

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