- Thread starter Bob Parry
- Start date
Allan in NE
Well-known Member
Compression.
Allan
Allan
Have you had the valve cover off and checked the tappet clearance? If the valves have worn in to the seats,they might be too close and not quite letting the valves close all the way.
If it's any consolation,when I traded off my 4040 it was up to a can of either every four or five day habit. I overhauled it and it still didn't help.
If it's any consolation,when I traded off my 4040 it was up to a can of either every four or five day habit. I overhauled it and it still didn't help.
What are you calling "cold?" Some of them had trouble starting at 50 degrees F when brand new and some started great at 40 F.
Did this tractor ever start better when you had it? If so, then you've probably got low fuel delivery, low compression, valves sunk too deep in the head, etc.
If you don't know the history - it may of always started cold.
Regardless, using a lot of ether in a 300 series engine is eventually going to shatter the top rings.
Did this tractor ever start better when you had it? If so, then you've probably got low fuel delivery, low compression, valves sunk too deep in the head, etc.
If you don't know the history - it may of always started cold.
Regardless, using a lot of ether in a 300 series engine is eventually going to shatter the top rings.
First off- dump the ether. It's a help, but hard on the engine- any engine. First, and the least costly idea. Put a heater, block or external, on the tractor. Park it in a building or near a building with electric, and plug it in for 1/2 hour at least before you need it. Mine are on a timer to cut electric usage.
A bit more expensive, but put a new set of injectors in the tractor. Your tractor may have never had a new set. They do wear out. A new set, with a good spray pattern, works wonders for starting and for power. It's almost like getting a different tractor. If I remember, my 4030 had a set of pencil injectors in it. They aren't too expensive, and fairly easy to change.
I changed the ones in mine, and it felt like I gained 20 or 30 hp. It also started much easier at colder temps and cut fuel usage drastically. If my memory serves me right, it had around 5500 hours on it when I did it.
A bit more expensive, but put a new set of injectors in the tractor. Your tractor may have never had a new set. They do wear out. A new set, with a good spray pattern, works wonders for starting and for power. It's almost like getting a different tractor. If I remember, my 4030 had a set of pencil injectors in it. They aren't too expensive, and fairly easy to change.
I changed the ones in mine, and it felt like I gained 20 or 30 hp. It also started much easier at colder temps and cut fuel usage drastically. If my memory serves me right, it had around 5500 hours on it when I did it.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Cold 0F, 20F ,40F or what? Normal to use a block heater when at near or below freezing temps.
What is the voltage at the starter measured when cranking?
What is the voltage at the starter measured when cranking?
They never where the best starting tractor to start with. Never under 35-40 degrees without block heater or either. They also are very sensitive to crank speed. If it is not spinning over really well it will not start. Also make sure the hydraulic pump is destroking. If it is not that will make them start hard. Make sure your batteries and cables are good. Check to see what voltage you have at the starter while cranking.
I have found two bad starter solenoids in the last two weeks making slow cranking tractors. Contacts burnt and not making good contact. Caused a big voltage drop to the starter armature. Found it on both with just a volt/ohm meter. So check while cranking: 1) at the positive terminal on the battery right before the starter 2) At the battery cable at the starter 3) at the output side of the starter solenoid.
When I over haul a JD 4030 with the 329 diesel. I always used the kit for a combine. The JD 4400 & 6600 diesel both had higher compression pistons and the same cylinder liners. That will make it start much better.
I have found two bad starter solenoids in the last two weeks making slow cranking tractors. Contacts burnt and not making good contact. Caused a big voltage drop to the starter armature. Found it on both with just a volt/ohm meter. So check while cranking: 1) at the positive terminal on the battery right before the starter 2) At the battery cable at the starter 3) at the output side of the starter solenoid.
When I over haul a JD 4030 with the 329 diesel. I always used the kit for a combine. The JD 4400 & 6600 diesel both had higher compression pistons and the same cylinder liners. That will make it start much better.
It could be many things as addressed already, e.g. valves, rings, electrical. My friend has a 4230 and like yours would not start on a warm day without ether. I suggested injection pump and injectors rebuilds. Starts down to freezing now. He cannot beleive it. He was so excited he insisted on starting it for me on a cold day. Paul
flying belgian
Well-known Member
If they are anything like the 4230 if the weather man even predicts cooler weather, it won't start.
i know either doesn't work well with all engine designs but on the ones it can be used on i've never figured out why people are so scared of it ,i've seen 3&4 sets of jumper cables hooked up trying to start a piece equip. on a cold morning after having it's batteries run down trying to start it without starting fluid,i got scolded for using it so i asked the man we worked for which was cheaper at that time a $.10 worth of either or $200 for a starter or $150 an hour for equip and labor delays every time we had to start it cold,he took a different look at it after that,all brands had engines that were hard to cold start,nothing wrong with the engines in general just hard to start cold,i've seen some start with just a small amount to help them initially fire,others had to have a snoot full then add to while turning until it fired then run it on either until it caught it's breath if you didn't they would stall and be harder the second time,i could name over a dozen different brands that i started cold with either and haven't blown one up yet.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
How does a 329 Dubuque/Mannheim/Saran engine resemble a 404 Waterloo?
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
So as long as a rod doesn't exit through the block using ether is ok?
Nobody ever heard of block heaters in your area?
Nobody ever heard of block heaters in your area?
The 4030 engine is a Dubuque 300 series with square non-plasma rings. They break fairly easy when ether is sprayed out of the can into the air intake. Deere only recommended ether use when done with the factory equipped injector and orifice.
I've had to rebuild countless 300 series engines ruined by ether. 4030, 1020,2020, 300, 400, 350 and 450 crawlers, 440 and 540 skidders, 380 forklikft, etc.
A $35 electric tank heater is cheap insurance and beats doing frequent engine rebuilds.
I've had to rebuild countless 300 series engines ruined by ether. 4030, 1020,2020, 300, 400, 350 and 450 crawlers, 440 and 540 skidders, 380 forklikft, etc.
A $35 electric tank heater is cheap insurance and beats doing frequent engine rebuilds.
Dieselbreath
Member
Don't know about using ether on tractor engines but using it on a GM 6.2 diesel will make it addicted to ether. What happens is the rods gets bent a little each time ether is used which lowers the compression, which requires the use of ether again.
teddy52food
Well-known Member
Here we go again. Even you know that when the VOLTAGE drops, the starter slows down. Magnetic field comes from the atoms of the wires excited by the VOLTAGE.
I don't know of any indirect-injected diesels that can handle ether safely. The Detroit-GM 6.2 and 6.5, Olds 5.7, Ford-IH 6.9 and 7.3 to mid 94, Deere 1010 and 2010, Ferguson and AC with the 23C engine, IH B275 and B414, etc. - all use the same basic Ricardo Comet precombustion chambers that are not designed to handle any ether use.
Mr. Buick's statement seems astute to me. You think calling him an idiot is a more intellectual post?
The original poster mentioned poor cold starting and ether. The Dubuque engine in the 4030 is not near as tolerant to ether abuse as a Waterloo engine is (3020, 4020, etc.).
The original poster mentioned poor cold starting and ether. The Dubuque engine in the 4030 is not near as tolerant to ether abuse as a Waterloo engine is (3020, 4020, etc.).
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Seems condescending to me, usual rhetoric from dearbuick.
Tx Jim
Well-known Member
- Location
- Coyote Flats, Texas
Wouldn't your statement apply to ALL glow plug equipped engines??
No "blanket statement" is perfect and most everything has exceptions.
Referring to engines with "glow plugs" confuses some people. That because many call the electric air-heaters in DI diesels "glow plugs." And DI engines do not have precombustion chambers that crack like egg-shells under ether load.
No terminology is perfect, I guess. Some IDIs are rated OK with ether - like a Buda 344 used in Allis Chalmers crawlers. But many IDIs differ in design. The Buda has no glow plugs and calls its chambers "energy cells." They came factory equipped with ether injection. The early Perkins has some sort of quasi IDI system also - but I know little about it. I do have one though in a MF35. It has an early IDI sort of 152, not the later DI.
That's why I made direct reference to IDI diesels with the Ricardo Comet system - which is the most common used in the USA and Great Britain. GM, Ford, Isuzu, Nissan, Deere, IH and many others have used it for their IDI engines. Those I am familiar with.
Referring to engines with "glow plugs" confuses some people. That because many call the electric air-heaters in DI diesels "glow plugs." And DI engines do not have precombustion chambers that crack like egg-shells under ether load.
No terminology is perfect, I guess. Some IDIs are rated OK with ether - like a Buda 344 used in Allis Chalmers crawlers. But many IDIs differ in design. The Buda has no glow plugs and calls its chambers "energy cells." They came factory equipped with ether injection. The early Perkins has some sort of quasi IDI system also - but I know little about it. I do have one though in a MF35. It has an early IDI sort of 152, not the later DI.
That's why I made direct reference to IDI diesels with the Ricardo Comet system - which is the most common used in the USA and Great Britain. GM, Ford, Isuzu, Nissan, Deere, IH and many others have used it for their IDI engines. Those I am familiar with.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Are you telling everyone it's not ok to make a point by mocking teddy26food about his stand against basic physics.
Have you actually seen a rod exit the block from using ether ? I used to work for a company and we would use cases and cases of ether to start engines. Cummins,deere,deutz and jimmy engines. I never seen one come apart and sometimes we would use so much the engine would ether lock. come back in 5 minutes and start right up. I never had one come apart. Just saying.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
No, I'm saying it's ok to use starting fluid.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
The rod through the block is the final and most dramatic result.
The usual damage is gradual loss of compression pressure and therefore heat. Due to cracked/broken rings, cracked pistons, scored sleeves, bent rods, blown head gaskets etc.
Why people walk right past the electrical outlet, extension cord and block heater plug. And reach for the ether can, it's a mystery.
The usual damage is gradual loss of compression pressure and therefore heat. Due to cracked/broken rings, cracked pistons, scored sleeves, bent rods, blown head gaskets etc.
Why people walk right past the electrical outlet, extension cord and block heater plug. And reach for the ether can, it's a mystery.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
All to often slow cranking rpms are overlooked and never resolved.
Battery cables, connections, faulty starters and leaking high pressure pumps are all too common.
Installing an oversize starter is a viable solution.
Battery cables, connections, faulty starters and leaking high pressure pumps are all too common.
Installing an oversize starter is a viable solution.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
teddy26food. Wrap a coil insulated wire a dozen times around a compass and apply 5000volts. Nothing will happen.
Now run 1.0 amp through the same coil and compass test rig. The compass will deflect.
Now run 1.0 amp through the same coil and compass test rig. The compass will deflect.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Your remark,if clever and witty could have meant something.
Apparently you were unaware that Dubuque engines of the era being less tolerant to ether than Waterloo's.
Apparently you were unaware that Dubuque engines of the era being less tolerant to ether than Waterloo's.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Company could have saved a lot of down time with cold engines & lost man hours. Deep cycled batteries and over heated starters. If they had used a simple generator to keep the engines warm.
Payback with less maintenance and more productive running hour time with quick starting engines. Should have been considered by the person's in charge?
Payback with less maintenance and more productive running hour time with quick starting engines. Should have been considered by the person's in charge?
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