one more ??? for the heating folks... sizing?

Anonymous-0

Well-known Member
Ok, anyone that knows.... Gonna go to a local plumbing/heating supply (3 of them) and tell them I want to take out my old boiler and set a new one in it's place (either another oil burner or a pellet burner)... and I'd like to nod my head like I understand at least a couple times.....

Is there a cheat site that I can type in conditions (like area to be heated, number of radiators, etc) and it tell me the size boiler (KW or BTU's) that I need? Also reading a little and picked up (I think) that the rating for oil, gas, & electric is different than with wood, pellets, coal, etc.....

Idea is to tell them I want to swap and have them offer me a package...
anyone know of such a site or can take my info and tell me a close size?

Thanks, Dave
 
Call a hvac contractor, it will be cheaper in the long run. If you have no idea what you are doing now. You definetly won't have a clue half way through the installation. I gaurantee it!
 
I think what you are asking is too complex to get any answers here. Your boiler may be adequate but you don't have enough radiators or their may be some obstruction in the plumbing. If the boiler is inadequate do you know what size you have now? Then how close is it to doing the job? I think it would save you money in the long run to get a trained professional to inspect and evaluate the system.
 

system works fine to heat the house... I bought the boiler used off ebay and didn't really worry about the size.... Installed the plumbing IAW advice from a pro and hooked the boiler to it.... Now I want to replace the boiler and will be asking a contractor/supplier for a package..Just like to know a little about what they are telling me.. BTW, current boiler is 24kw and from the little that I am picking up tells me it's oversized....

any constructive tips appreciated...

Dave
 
According to the net you can only get about 82000 btu from a 24kw electric boiler. Give the plumbing people the square footage your heating. they can tell best what btu you need. I don't believe I would go smaller.
 
(quoted from post at 04:59:43 01/18/12) According to the net you can only get about 82000 btu from a 24kw electric boiler. Give the plumbing people the square footage your heating. they can tell best what btu you need. I don't believe I would go smaller.

typed a big reply and had it rejected... back later....

Thanks.
 
There are several sites I have seen over the years that will do the basic calculations your looking for but I don't have any of them saved to favorites or anything to be able to pass them on. Your best bet would be to do a search for something like a HVAC calculator, etc and see what you can find.

I started doing a bit of studying on the HVAC field several years back,one just to learn something new, and two to give myself more options for employeement, if needed, given the economic situation. Thankfully my mechanic work picked back up and as a result I didn't have the opportunity to pursue things too much further.

That said, based on what little I did manage to learn, to do even a fairly accurate assesment of your HVAC needs there are alot of factors involved. They range from the amount of insulation in the walls, to the type and square footage of window glass, to the actual size/cu feet of the house and individual rooms, to the number of doors, to the type and amount of attic space, to the type of foundation/crawlspace, to the climate zone you live in, etc, etc. In other words, whether you understand what they are doing or not, your best bet will be to simply call a professional and let them figure it all out.

You say there are three close to you so I'd call all three and have each one come out and give their own assesment on the situation and then compare the results. All things being equal they should all come up with figures in the same ball park as far as system capacity goes. But if one of the three is way off the mark, just remember, like many other things in life too much or too little of something can be a problem. The same goes for an HVAC system since too much or too little heat, A/C, ventilation and/or airflow has the potential to cause problems ranging from something simple like a cold or hot room to more major problems like condensation buildup in the ventilation system or the structure causing problems with mold or mildew. Not to mention and undersized system will cause excessive wear and tear on the equipment effectively shortening it's life expectancy due to the excessive run time and costing more money to replace the system prematurely. Based on that take the majority opinion and then narrow it down by price, or whatever other criteria you have in mind to make an informed choice. Good luck.
 

Only problem with getting them to come out is I installed the system myself in a 100+ year old house.... Only thing I would get out of them in that case is a total rebuild because they would have to answer for everything heating related. Tell em what I have and let them sell me a package, set it in place and have a pro connect it and they have to answer only for the boiler... I'll google what you said tho...

Thanks
 
Check with your power provider they may have a program where they do the heat load calculations for you on request. Some do so in the states.
Angle Iron
 
From what I could see you would be looking at more than $1500.00 to purchase a new boiler. Do you think you would save enough on your electric bill to pay for that?. Apparently the system you have works fine. I think I would wait until it wears out before replacing it because an alternative boiler you would have to pay to feed it also. Anyway if the system you have works fine you should just want to change the boiler you should be able to purchase a oil or wood pellet boiler in the 82'000 btu range and change it out.
 

For old houses in my opinion the most important step is to determine what size heating system you currently have and ask yourself how does (or did) it heat the house. There should be a label or tag that indicates Btu input and Btu output: the input number is how much fuel/electricity the furnace/boiler will use and the output is the Btu which is put into your house. Dividing the input by the output gives the efficiency of the device, a higher efficiency system will use less fuel for any given amount of heat output into the house.

Since old houses tend to have less insulation, leaky doors and windows which the charts don't cover well, the heating people will tend to install larger systems to handle the unforeseens and unknowns. My house is 100 + years old and I recently replaced the old 100,000 Btu furnace with a 60,000 Btu unit. I felt confident in doing this since the older unit had very short on times even in the coldest windy nights. I am very happy with the smaller unit - it was cheaper to buy and simply runs a little longer on cold days/nights but the house stays warm.

The heating person should be able to work through the sizing charts or whatever they use and explain it to you. However, you have your current system as a baseline.
 
(quoted from post at 06:00:53 01/18/12) From what I could see you would be looking at more than $1500.00 to purchase a new boiler. Do you think you would save enough on your electric bill to pay for that?. Apparently the system you have works fine. I think I would wait until it wears out before replacing it because an alternative boiler you would have to pay to feed it also. Anyway if the system you have works fine you should just want to change the boiler you should be able to purchase a oil or wood pellet boiler in the 82'000 btu range and change it out.

Exactly..... When I say system, I mean boiler and tank (shower water).... You folks are used to something different I guess (been away a long time)....

Cheapest boiler/tank & pump system will run in the 4500 -5k $ range.... If I could get something for 1500, I'd be poopin in tall cotton.....
 
It's hard to picture what you have. The only system I have worked on had the boiler, tank and pump seperate from each other. Any one component could be change without changing the other. I was just considering the boiler only.
 
(quoted from post at 06:36:37 01/18/12) It's hard to picture what you have. The only system I have worked on had the boiler, tank and pump seperate from each other. Any one component could be change without changing the other. I was just considering the boiler only.

hard to explain.... my boiler holds 8-10 gallons of water that does two things. 1 is supply the radiators with hot water and the second is run a coil thru the sink water tank (40 gallon) to keep it heated. Yes, all are seperate, but a system.....
 
Dave probably nothing you want to hear. But here goes.

We used to have a saying we can do it cheap, we can do it fast, we can do it right pick one.

A heating system requires the most field engineering of any system in your home. The heating system is comprised of individual components and those components must be assembled into a system, if all of the components are sized and fit together correctly you have a system that keeps you comfortable and runs efficiently.

When you try to replace only a part of the system you might be able to compare that to attempting to put a modern engine in a Model T without changing the transmission, rear end or anything else. Could you do it? Probably Could you ever consider it a well-designed efficient trouble free automobile?

With a two zone system such as yours you need to know how many BTU you need to replace the heat losses that escape from your house (the heating envelope) during the worst expected weather conditions to size the heating zone. The next thing you need to know is how many BTU are required to heat the domestic hot water in your indirect loop so that you can size the indirect zone. It takes 8.34 BTUs to raise the temperature of 1 gallon of water by 1 degree, in my area we calculate the incoming supply water at 55°F so if you want to raise the temperature of 40 gallon of water from 55°F to 120°F in one hour would require 21,648 BTUs/Hr at 100% efficiency.

Some people will use a rule of thumb based on your area and the construction of your house they will say that you have X square foot of either “tight” or “loose” house an use a questimate of “X” BTU per Square foot. Usually people using this method are guessing and often oversize the equipment. If you are doing cookie cutter houses in a development where are the same except for exposure direction you might get away with it but again you might get burned on some houses that have radically different orientations, or wind exposure etc.

The correct way to do it is to use Manual J program to calculate your heat losses and then to add in the BTU required for the indirect domestic water heating, factoring in the efficiency of your indirect loop.
Now in the rooms being heated you need to size the radiators or floor loop to replace the BTU’s lost from the room’s heat losses at the design temperature for the lowest average temperature for your area.

Let’s disregard the people skills and lay it out like it is. Dave you are an intelligent man and you realize you have a Kludged system, you have made it work but you suspect the present boiler is oversized. What leads you to that conclusion, does the boiler short cycle on cold days when you are using domestic water? If you are going to spend around 5K$ why not spend a little more and have an engineered system that will give you the most bang for your buck in terms of comfort, efficiency and longevity. I think you can change just the boiler and Kludge around and make it work but it will most likely never be the best system you could possibly have, it very well may end up in the category of making do.

Can someone take the BTU capabilities of your registers and floor loops plus your hot water demand and guestimate a boiler size? Probably but at best that is a questimate based on unknown factors, are your registers and floor loop size correctly sized in the present system?

Dave I can suggest a link where the wet heads hang out(Heating Help {the Wall}), these guys really know their stuff on Hydronics and Steam and they can answer specific questions but you need to do your homework. If you give them specific facts and ask a question you will get an answer if you ask vague questions with no data they won’t treat you kindly., so you need to be prepared to answer their questions to get any help from them.


http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-category/76/THE-MAIN-WALL
 

Maybe it isn't too big then(??)... If, in a perfect situation, I need 17 (?) kw ... Old, not the best insulated house and a 21kw boiler may be OK....
As for the rest of the system (plumbing), why would you rip out and replace it all just because your boiler is outdated/wore out??

When we bought the house, before we moved in, had a heating guy come out and go thru, gave us an itemized estimate with materials. I bought exactly what the pro was gonna use down to pipe size and installed it. Only thing I did was hook up an old boiler to it... I'll see what the sales guys say.....
 
How big is the house?
How many floors, Basement?
How well insulated?

In my home a pellet burner is limited with a 2300sq foot house, ranch home with temps at 0F or below.
 

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