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There IS solution to high fuel prices.

I teach the kids in my mechanics class that technology isn't always as new as you might think. But often it exists considerably earlier than it is marketable.
Allis Chalmers made a fuel cell tractor back in the 60's (might have been late 50's).
a62179.jpg
 
I have been thinking that maybe an electric tractor might work better than a car. All those batteries would just be extra ballast and on an infrequently used utility tractor you could charge off a windmill/solar charger over several days.
 
and the hydrogen comes from...? If they're really discussing 'hydrogen' gas then electrolysis of water would be one obvious choice. Then we simply need to separate the H2 from the O. The easiest current source of H2 is from fossile fuels.
 
20+ years ago,The Ag boys at the University of
Nebraska convarted a SuperM to hydrogen.They used
commonly available "off the shelf" products.The
only 'giveaway' was a canopy that held the solar
cell5 and the oxygen bottle that captured the self
generated hydrogen.You would fill the gas tank
with water,the water would be converted into
hydrogen and oxygen.The oxygen would then be
vented back to atmosphere and the hydrogen
captured/compressed.The exhaust would be pure
water vapor.Before that they did an MD to fun on
100%sunflower/vegatable oil.Both tractors had
great performance and increased horsepower.This
was in Farm Show Magazine years ago.
 
Tractors are about long hours of pulling hard.

Comes down to fuel density. Whatever has the most energy per lb of weight is probably going to do well.

Batteries don't, compressed gasses have issues with getting them compressed and stable, we end up coming back to diesel as the best bang for the buck.

--->Paul
 
There was a pro alternative fuel show in PBS just a year or two ago talking about hydrogen fueled vehicles in Iceland. Said their goal was to run all of their vehicles on it. So far they have only acomplished getting their busses converted. They have free energy from geothermal to produce the hydrogen and they said even with that,they were still at least 50 years away from producing enough to power all of their vehicles. And we in the US have how many times more vehicles than they have in Iceland?
 
18 lb. hydrogen tank, at 5,xxx lbs. pressure. How long would it run on that amount? Big problem with hydrogen cars has been cruising range. If you have to refuel every couple of hours, and have to go back to the farmstead instead of from a tank on the back of your pickup, that's a problem.
 
The big problem with hydrogen as a fuel is that it takes quite a bit of energy to manuafacture it and store and an enormous ammount of infrastructure costs to distribute it. In my professional life we looked at using hydrogen fuel on aircraft and we in fact demostrated it inflight on a 707 in 1957 IIRC. Our studies in the early "90"s indicated that in order to supply just Los Angeles airport with Hydrogen fuel would take 16-500 megawatt nuclear powerplants (can"t use coal fired plants because that would generate tomuch pollution)to generate the hydrogen to run that airport! never min the infrastructre to store and distribute the fuel and the safety hazards in dealing with hydrogen.
And by the way water vapor is a "greenhouse "gas.

I just don"t see hydrogen as a viable replacement for motor fuel
 
(quoted from post at 11:25:06 02/14/12) 20+ years ago,The Ag boys at the University of
Nebraska convarted a SuperM to hydrogen.They used
commonly available "off the shelf" products.The
only 'giveaway' was a canopy that held the solar
cell5 and the oxygen bottle that captured the self
generated hydrogen.You would fill the gas tank
with water,the water would be converted into
hydrogen and oxygen.The oxygen would then be
vented back to atmosphere and the hydrogen
captured/compressed.The exhaust would be pure
water vapor.Before that they did an MD to fun on
100%sunflower/vegatable oil.Both tractors had
great performance and increased horsepower.This
was in Farm Show Magazine years ago.
Click to expand...

In a perfectly balanced equation in an adiabatic system where only O2 is reacting with the H2 molecules would you get 2H2O as a product (water vapor). Unfortunately if you are ingesting straight air there is Nitrogen, Carbon Dioxide and a whole slew of other gases present and at elevated temperatures all kinds of neat reactions occur and you end up expelling hydrocarbons and NOx compounds other than pure water vapor. Now if you were injecting pure O2 into the combustion chamber as well as pure H2 and adding activation energy then maybe, just maybe you'd get water vapor. But unfortunately you have oil, steel, so on and so forth that will contaminate the combustion chamber and what you get out the stack still won't be pure water vapor.
 
IRRC,the canopy was 4'x6'.there was also a 'battery' of batterys,other details that I dont remember.After all,its been over 25 years.
 
The gasoline distribution infrastructure took DECADES to develop.

You're expecting the next technology to have an infrastructure in place overnight, and totally dismiss anything that can't meet that ridiculous standard.

We're at the beginning of figuring out what we're going to do after oil. It might take 100 years. We might blow through billions of $$$. We're going to make bad choices and lots of mistakes along the way. That's how this works. Nobody has a crystal ball that will tell them what's going to turn out to be practical in the future. We've got to figure it out the hard way.
 
(quoted from post at 11:45:13 02/14/12) The gasoline distribution infrastructure took DECADES to develop.

You're expecting the next technology to have an infrastructure in place overnight, and totally dismiss anything that can't meet that ridiculous standard.

We're at the beginning of figuring out what we're going to do after oil. It might take 100 years. We might blow through billions of $$$. We're going to make bad choices and lots of mistakes along the way. That's how this works. Nobody has a crystal ball that will tell them what's going to turn out to be practical in the future. We've got to figure it out the hard way.
Click to expand...

Producing your own fuel on the farm as it is needed requires NO infrastructure.
 
I heard a story about a guy around the 1920's that made a car that ran on water. It sounded like a fairy tale but the man, his can and his plans seem to disappear like Jimmy Hoffa. Then in 2010 I heard on the evening news their was another guy that also make a engine that ran on water and was trying to make a deal with the major car manufacturers to supply the engines. That was the last time I heard of that story. Wonder if oil companies got rid of them?
 
1959. You beat me to the post. My solution to high fuel costs would be a new governor, then a new president, in that order. But then again, I live in MD!
 
If you're looking for the perfect fuel that costs little, produces no pollution than, of course, you'd be against this. I agree with Mkirsch in that it will take a long time to develop, but a good start would be to implement this in agriculture as rustyfarmall points out, very little infrastructure required.

Hydrogen as the fuel of the future beats all the hare-brained wind turbines they're putting up all over.
 
(quoted from post at 06:44:48 02/15/12) If you're looking for the perfect fuel that costs little, produces no pollution than, of course, you'd be against this. I agree with Mkirsch in that it will take a long time to develop, but a good start would be to implement this in agriculture as rustyfarmall points out, very little infrastructure required.

Hydrogen as the fuel of the future beats all the hare-brained wind turbines they're putting up all over.
Click to expand...

Agree 100% on the wind turbines.

DiyDave, you hit the nail right square on the head.
 
(quoted from post at 16:05:10 02/14/12) I have been thinking that maybe an electric tractor might work better than a car. All those batteries would just be extra ballast and on an infrequently used utility tractor you could charge off a windmill/solar charger over several days.
Click to expand...

That just makes to much sense.

Interesting google results.

http://www.eeevee.com/tractors/TNF_article.html

http://www.electrictractor.com/

I wish I had my old G back now.

http://www.brookssolar.com/news/electricTractor.html

An ag class project worth a look.

http://blogbattery.com/2010/05/electric-tractor-update/
 
(quoted from post at 08:23:58 02/15/12)
(quoted from post at 16:05:10 02/14/12) I have been thinking that maybe an electric tractor might work better than a car. All those batteries would just be extra ballast and on an infrequently used utility tractor you could charge off a windmill/solar charger over several days.
Click to expand...

That just makes to much sense.
Click to expand...

I have entertained thoughts on converting a Farmall H to all electric, but have not done any research or planning. So far, it is only a thought.

Who wants to accept the challenge to build one?
 
So just how exactly do you take the spent products of combustion that have already given off thier exothrmic energy. And then then burn it again? That is like trying to set wood stove ashes on fire. Or trying to take CO2 and burn it. Your lies only work on those who failed grade 10 science class.
 
I figure the only way someone could make a engine that would run on water would somehow separate the hydrogen from the oxygen in water and uses the hydrogen for combustion. This is being done but not all in one unit under the hood. Maybe these two guys found a way.
 
(quoted from post at 22:13:39 02/15/12) I figure the only way someone could make a engine that would run on water would somehow separate the hydrogen from the oxygen in water and uses the hydrogen for combustion. This is being done but not all in one unit under the hood. Maybe these two guys found a way.
Click to expand...

There was a "fad" of sorts back in the '70s that involved "water vapor injection". Theoretically it would increase the miles per gallon. Basically the technology consisted of adding a water reservoir under the hood and then metering the water into the intake system by tapping into a vacuum hose. Supposedly the water would then turn to steam in the combustion chamber and increase the efficiency of the gasoline. I think the technology was more or less "borrowed" from the air craft industry, but it seems that quite a bit was lost in the translation. It was just one more of those ideas that SHOULD have worked, but didn't.
 
If the application was a high compression engine, it could be
made to run on low octane fuel if water injection was properly
metered.Carbon would cleaned out too.
 
If the application was a high compression engine, it could be
made to run on low octane fuel if water injection was properly
metered.Carbon would cleaned out too.
 

Every one has a idea. Well heres mine. How much of a reduction in gas and deisel would it take to drop the price of fuel one dollar? If every city over 50,000 people in the US passed a law that within five years every car, bus, delevery truck in the city had to run on LP how much gas and deisel would that cut down in a year. LP is clean and it would cut down on the polution,and we wouldn't have to worry about a lot of batteries to dispose of. Just a thought maybe it would work and maybe not, but we already know how to make a engine run on LP.

Bob
 
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