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Ot: raw milk

J

JayinNY

Well-known Member
What do u think of raw milk? I read alot of counterverserty (spelling, stupid smart phone! ) about it, it's not safe, but I read stories from the past and people would drink it with no problems. I know a few people that drink it now. So what's the deal in your opinion?
 
Google Weston A. Price Foundation for lots of good info on raw milk. We pay $10.00 a gallon, but it is worth it. If you really want to dig deep, then do some research on the link between pasteurized milk and clogged arteries.
 
My folks raised three kids on raw milk. That wasn't 80 years ago either, I'm only 32. Put a gallon of clean raw milk in the fridge along with a store bought homogenized, pasteurized and see which one goes bad first. There are no negatives to raw milk only positives.

We had a milk cow for a year (2009) and I fed my two kids at the time with no problems. We had her AI'd again but she lost the calf about halfway to term and I just haven't had time to go find another one. We left the calf on her the whole time and we never ran out of milk in the fridge. It was a little annoying to have to clean all the calf slobber off the teats before milking but that was the only downside. The up side to leaving the calf was not having to milk her twice a day if we didn't need the milk.
 
I drink it, and so do my boys, from our bulk tank, so we know the quality. Is it 100% safe? Probably not... but neither is getting out of bed every day. MUCH prefer the taste to store milk.
 
2nd that ,age 55 here 5th child of 8 , We never so much as broke a finger, And we fell ,got run over,and wrecked and racked up a lot of battle stars ,, had resileint energy ,enthusiasm ,and loved every day back then,, RAW MILK BUILT THIS COUNTRY
 
There are negatives to raw milk. Johnes? Very common now. Possibly related to Crohn"s disease? Plus the downsides of non-pastuerized milk? duh?
 
We milked cow for twenty + years . We nver used raw milk we put it through pasteurization before useing it. You can get undulant fever from raw milk. If you get the fever you can have long term side effects from it. If you get it from raw goats milk it almost always fatal.
 
Many many things to factor into that one. How the animal is feed how clean the milking area is and then how the milk is handled. People with stomach problems should not drink it with out pasteurizing it. Then as i said many other factors. As a whole if you do thing clean it should in theory be ok but you know how theories are and the bumble bee can not fly as for theory
 
I have an Uncle that got undulant fever form drinking unpasteurized milk when he was fourteen. He has had complications from it ever since(he is now 70). He has muscle pain and issues that are just terrible.

You guys can drink what ever you want to. My family will stick to pasteurized milk and cheese products.

I have read many different articles on both sides of the issue. I usually don't trust/like the government on anything but the FDA is usually pretty cautious on what it prints. So here is a link to their page about pasteurized milk.
FDA article on the subject.
 
I was raised on raw milk, I raised my kids in raw milk until the farmers were getting notices about not being healthy for human consumption. for awhile the place got around that by selling it for pet consumption only. then later on wasn't allowed to sell any unpasteurized milk at all ?
 
100% raw for me.

P1020982cropped-1-1.jpg
 
JDseller When we miled we had a guy we knew that milked goats and he got undulant fever and by the time the doctor figured out what he had he died from it.
 
According to the link above from the CDC, 800 people have gotten sick from drinking or eating products from raw milk from cows, goats and sheep since 1998. That averages out to 67 a year.
According to the same CDC, in 2011 alone 48,000,000 people got sick from some sort of food borne illness total.
So 67 a year from unpasteurized milk products, 48,000,000 a year from everything else.
I don't think it's that serious of a risk, at least not what the CDC makes it out to be.
http://www.cdc.gov/foodborneburden/index.html
 
I never thought twice about raw milk from the bulk tank until the time I helped milk and had a cow kick the milker off and PLOOP right into some p!ss soaked straw -NICE. For old times sake I would drink a clean glass of fresh drawn milk from a clean teat, otherwise mine comes from Kwik Trip.

Not sure what negative effect pasturizing does, never cared. My kids were bottle fed bulk tank milk from FIL's farm but we had a home pasturizer to process it thru. It's a simple matter of rapid heating then rapid cooling.
 
Tuberculosis is also one of the diseases that you can get from raw milk. As a youngster we had raw milk form the farm cows but they were regularly tested for things like tuberculosis etc.
 
30 years ago moved from town to the country. Neighbor had a Holstein cow/Whiteface bull (jumped a dariryman's fence) that had just calved but lost it. Called me and told me I could borrow it for as long as I wanted.

I was poor, trying to get settled out here, raising 4 kids. You bet. After a couple of days she was named "Buttercup" and by the end of the week I had asked the guy how much he wanted. Said $800 which was very high considering she was unusable as a milker as she was cross bred and her spiggots were half as long as normal ones that you hook the milker to.

I did the milking to ensure that the job was done right. Didn't want anyone getting sick and I could depend on myself to get the job done. Milked her 6 AM and PM for several years.

With only 2" spiggots, you couldn't milk her in the normal manner. 2 fingers, actually thumb and index finger. I still have a very pronounced muscle pop up when I mash my thumb up against my hand and that was 30 years ago.

The milk went from the milking bucket through a strainer into capped alum cans for refrigeration.

She gave the best milk you ever put in your mouth. No brag, just fact. Put a container of raw milk in the frig in the evening, and the next morning you will have "Half and Half". Her butterfat content was most unusual and I assume that the steer made the difference being a beef rather than dairy breed.

Mark
 
Ive used raw milk for 65 years with no problem.Cows and goats were tested for TB and Brucillosis.Goats and milk cows were tested before milk was used.You can get some bad disease from hamberger,lettuce and strawberries.Booze will stop your clock and tobacco will give you lung cancer.Government taxes both.
 
Best milking cow I ever had was a Hereford that lost her calf.The milk just ran out after you washed her with warm water.She stood still for milking.My Jerseys were hard milkers.
 
My children used goat milk for 10 years, then I kept a milk cow until they left home.I would keep a cow now but its too much milk for 2 of us.We have a dairy in town that sells raw milk.They are on a dirt road thats rough going in spring but I be going to get their milk soon.
 
I have had Brangus mothers do the same thing. Course they were big baggers and it was time for the calf to come in for lunch. Grin.

OT: On cream and milk, when young, I had access to half and half that people use in their coffee.

I loved in on Kellogg's Rice Crispies. So, having access to her rich milk brought back memories.

I made a place in the barn about 10' square with a hole in the rail that she could get her head through. Put a box under it for feed and used a 2x4 with one bolt in the lower end and a pin in the upper end so that once she stuck her head through the hole, I could slide the board over and hold it. Worked really good and she got used to the feeding setup almost immediately.

It was just that swishing tail that I could have done without and then there was the kicking the bucket every time I just about had it full.

Mark
 
There are rings in the ceiling of my tie up where the tails were tied up to avoid getting a crappy tail wrapped around your neck.My Jerseys had a long tail switch that could be tied to the cows leg.My Uncle Bud worked on a dairy farm many years ago.The boss said Bud, dont milk that cow on the end.Ill be late getting back so I will milk her.She will kick you.Bud said he got all the cows milked and it was getting dark.Bud went down and started milking that cow.No problem until the farmers daughter came out and said suppers ready.Bud said he tried to say Ill be in when I finish.The cow kicked him into the gutter on Ill be.
 
Grew up on a dairy farm and have run my own dairy for 30 years, so close to 50 years of drinking raw milk here. Have neighbors whose children were lactose intolerant (part Alaskan Indian) but they have no problems drinking raw milk, dont know why that would be.
 
WE used to keep and hand milked of course an old Family Cow that was 1/2 Gurnsey, 1/4 Jersey, 1/4 Ayrshire YOU TALK ABOUT DELICIOUS RICH MILK MMMMMMMMM but her front teats were small n we had to like strip milk those grrrrr that muscle between thumb n index finger sure got sore lol

The family all drink it after we poured it through the paper filters and refrigerated it. We skimmed some cream but left some for flavor. One of our kids had a health problem and had to drink goats milk, we milked goats a few years

Were still healthy and all the kids grew up healthy

MAN I LOVED THAT HEAVY CREAMY RAW MILK FLAVOR

John T
 
I might drink some milk straight from the cow if I had my own cow. But there is no way I would drink milk I bought without first pasteurizing it. Heck every dairy farmer I know pasteurizes their milk for the house.

Homogenizing milk is what beats the heck out of it. Pasteurizing it only kills the bacteria in it.
 
In the 50's people from town would come to our dairy with their glass 1 gallon milk bottles and wait for us to start milking our cows. They would empty the milk holding tank at $50/gallon. Back then it was legal to sell raw milk.
 
Is raw milk 'safe'? Probably safer than driving in DC but not as safe as staying home with Mama and sucking your thumb in the corner.But thats not the main issue the Issue is freedom and the
fact that I should be able to go to a neighbor who milks a cow and decide for myself whether I want to buy the milk or not.I don't need Nanny Gov't tagging along.Heck anyone can buy gasoline and I guantee you drinking it will do you more harm than drinking raw milk and so will drinking Vodka,Coke & Pepsi.Drunk drivers kill and maime more people in a year than raw milk has in the last 50 years.
 
Drank raw milk for the first 18 years of my life, then came back to the farm after 5 years and drank it for another 7 years. On my family's dairy of course. Think it actually probably made me immune to more things.
 
As I understand it the sale of raw milk is till legal here in Ohio. Friend told me last year his neighbor is setup to sell all organick milk from home and what is not sold from home gets shipped to New York City, all Jursey milk. The big problem came from when a cow got mastitus and the milker did not notice it or thought it would not hurt anything and put it in the can with the rest or did not keep it out of the system long enough that the germs and medication were gone. If you hand milked the cow all the time if something was wrong you imedatly noticed it but you put it in a pipeline that went direct to a tank the bad milk was mixed in before the milker knew about it when the filter pluged for the next cow and if multiple milkers were going it would take you a few days possibly to find out the sick cow to start treating her and holding the milk out of the tank to be thrown away.
 
people drink booze and beer and kill them selves and most of the time take other people out with them and its legal to drink . If you drink milk and get sick it is your own choice and will not kill other people when you might get sick.
 
I grew up on raw milk that we got from a dairy that I worked summers for. Raw milk is much better for you than the stuff that we are forced to buy and drink now.

Leonard
 
As a kid growing up in the 60's we had milk straight from the tank all the time. Milk is a great medium to grow bacteria and along with some diseases cows can get and how easy it is to spoil it is just simpler to pasteurize it for normal sale to the public. However with the right precautions such as sanitation of equipment, proper refrigeration, clean milking environment and vaccination of cows it can be done safely. For my money pasteurization and homogenization ruins milk from a taste standpoint.
 
There was a time when people did get sick from raw cows milk but there were other hygiene problems in that era too.
Depends too, I've seen barns, cattle and equipment cleaner that most houses and some hospitals. We have also seen barns there were not fit for animals to live in.
There is a certain amount of what people get acclimatization to. Travel to India or Mexico and what the locals eat and drink doesn't seem to bother them. We would be ill,hospitalized, crippled or dead after eating,drinking and living in the same.
We have this Schmidt dude on a crusade around here. I agree with the point of telling government snoops and do-gooders to mind their own business.

http://thebovine.wordpress.com/
 
Lots of opinons, most are wrong. You cannot be come amune to , TB, undulent fever, or E coil, or campybaotor. But you can become sick, maybe die from them . Most times it is the very young and the old or infirm who sicken first. Why take the chance on some precieved benifit, and chance knowen risk. Be sure to read JDseller and Fordfarmer. Iam a dairy farmer. Bruce .
 
Interesting. I hadn't ever heard of it. We had raw milk for most of my youth. I didn't realize until years later how much my father hated the cows. He continued a few years after my grandfather died, then sold them when a bulk tank was required to replace cans. But he kept one and milked it by hand for the family. He separated the cream with a water separator and mother made butter.
I can still remember him in the steamy milkhouse on a cold winter day scrubbing the milkers.
 
Because this is supposed to be a free country and I should be able to drink any kind of milk I want to without the nanny Gov't holding my hand. You can get sick and die from ingesting anything, including pasteurized milk. You take risks eating or drinking anything, including water. Of course the young and elderly get sick first, that fact is not limited to raw milk, and has no bearing in the topic.
Why take a chance walking out the front door, you may get struck by lightening trying to take advantage of the perceived benefit of exercise.
 
We had a dairy farm, and I spent the majority of my early career (age 16 to 28)working in a cheese factory, while farming. I ran alot of milk tests on loads of incoming milk, and alot of tests on bacterial loads, equipment swabs, fat tests, etc, and other Quality Assurance duties. I also held a pasteurizers licence, and cheesemakers licence.

If you are drinking your own milk, and are controlling the quality, I say go for it. I was raised on the stuff. But, once you remove yourself from the production of the milk, and especially if you do not know the milk producer personally, it is a crapshoot; you have no idea what some of these guys try to pass off as good milk. And there is always the case of a good farmer having an undetected issue which may contaminate the milk. Bad things happen to good people.

I say to be safe, pasteurize you milk. It is one less thing to worry about. But that is just my opinion.
 
It"s a different issue in Canada then in the States. It"s got nothing to do with safety up here, it"s got everything to do with control. No offense to Bruce, but you can"t completely trust what he says. He"s likely got a million tied up in Quota so he"s only protecting his investment. It should be a personal choice in a supposedly free country, but instead it"s forced down our throats becuase it"s our only choice.
 
I have always looked at this as layers of protection. There are just too many things that can go wrong to be sure that raw milk is okay. If just one cow doesn't get washed off correctly before milking you can have E coli in the milk. Times that by how many how many cows, by how many milkings, by how many farms and you will have a problem at some point. Even at the dairy plant there can be problems handling and pasteurizing. Everybody from the dairy farmer, the milk hauler, the dairy processor and the store have to do their best but it takes multiple problems for bad milk to be sold. Raw milk just simply has fewer layers of protection.
 
One of the people that really supported drinking raw milk was Henry Ford. A genius in many ways,yet very human. Probably one of the saddest parts of his life was when his son Edsal died from brucellosis contracted from drinking raw milk.
The health standards are there for a reason.
 
I believe it is a scam to make people believe raw milk is no good for you so they can separate the cream, and sell for a much higher cost.
Then they take the milk , water it down to sell as 1 ,and 2% making even more profit as if you used the most recommended 1% " cause it's better for your health" but I need three times as much for in my coffee so I use more ... Go Figure ... No more diet milk for me .
I say properly handled, and as long as tests come back with the minimal bacteria allowances, and proper cleanliness procedures are adhered to, Raw milk is best.
If only folks knew what the best Flavored cheese comes from. I remember when the cans would set out in the sun waiting for pickup being only chilled in the spring house water that ran through a troft . (( been so long, spell check dont recognize the word but those that know understand ))
 
I drank it all my life up until 8 years ago when we sold the dairy cows. My kids drank it. The youngest,when he was just able to walk and couldn't even talk,would come in the barn with his bottle and hold it out to me wanting it filled. I'd squirt it full right from the cow for him.
Growing up,Dad would just pour some back in the milk pail out of a can before he even put the cans in the cooler and bring it to the house and set the pail on the counter for us to have for breakfast every morning. I remember cow hair floating in it sometimes off his clothes. I remember when I put in the bulk tank and started dipping cold milk out of that to bring to the house. Took me quite a while to get used to drinking cold milk for breakfast.Bottom line, none of us ever got sick from it.
Now,with all that said,would I drink milk off somebody elses farm that way anymore? I really don't know. For whatever difference there might be,if I have to buy it anyway,I'd probably go with the storebought pasturized stuff.
 
I grew up on raw milk too but I have to say that the number of times I have had stomach flu since I stopped drinking raw milk has greatly diminished. What I know now is that I likely had food poisoning and raw milk is a likely culprit. E coli causes food poisoning and cow manure is full of it.
 
We drink and use raw milk. Have for years with no problem. Like any raw food product, safe handling and storage/use is key from start to end.
 
At least 30 states in the US allow raw milk sales. Most of these states only legalize farmer-to-consumer direct sales, but several allow retail sale also.

Here is Vermont's law: http://www.vermontagriculture.com/fscp/dairy/documents/Title_6_Chapter_152.pdf

Having read the law, I can say there are reasonable safety measures in place that ensure, to a great extent, the safety of the raw milk product. Most states have similar reasonable requirements for those who produce and sell raw milk.

It is my opinion that locally produced raw milk products can be safer for you to consume than mass produced and distributed milk products, provided that the farmer follows good sanitary practices and regularly monitors the health of each of his or her cows.

It should be obvious to anyone that pasteurization allows the farmer to ship milk to processors with higher SCC(infection) and bad bacteria levels. You don't know it, and probably don't care, because the label says pasteurized and homogenized. You can safely consume just about anything if it has been processed enough! You regularly consume unimaginably disgusting things in mass-distributed products from the grocery store, and I am not talking about unusual body parts here, but animal, and in some cases, human waste.

Ignorance certainly can be a blissful state of mind, but I feel getting milk and other food goods locally from a small operation where you can see and judge production conditions for yourself, is significantly more healthy than consuming bodily waste that has been pasteurized and processed enough to be considered safe for human consumption.
 
WOW,I hope you know the difference between ignorant and stupid,because I'm not calling you stupid,but that has to be the most ill informed,misinformed bunch of internet accessed extremist hogwash I think I've ever seen posted on this site.
Locally sourced? Every place is local if you're there. High SCC? Do you even know what that is or what the laws are for SCC,pre incubated bacteria,any of the standards for milk sales are? Human waste? Animal waste?

This is unbelievable. I was involved in milk marketing as an officer in a state co-op for many years as well as milking cows myself for 33 years. I just can't believe that stuff like you're spreading exists out there in cyberspace. Unreal!
 
I've got to agree with what you posted. We drink raw milk from our own cows, but I would be very careful about getting anything like that from someone else, and I don't really think it is possible to guarantee the safety in a bottle of raw milk sold in a retail store.

Christopher
 
(quoted from post at 11:58:33 03/04/12) At least 30 states in the US allow raw milk sales. Most of these states only legalize farmer-to-consumer direct sales, but several allow retail sale also.

Here is Vermont's law: http://www.vermontagriculture.com/fscp/dairy/documents/Title_6_Chapter_152.pdf

Having read the law, I can say there are reasonable safety measures in place that ensure, to a great extent, the safety of the raw milk product. Most states have similar reasonable requirements for those who produce and sell raw milk.

It is my opinion that locally produced raw milk products can be safer for you to consume than mass produced and distributed milk products, provided that the farmer follows good sanitary practices and regularly monitors the health of each of his or her cows.

It should be obvious to anyone that pasteurization allows the farmer to ship milk to processors with higher SCC(infection) and bad bacteria levels. You don't know it, and probably don't care, because the label says pasteurized and homogenized. You can safely consume just about anything if it has been processed enough! You regularly consume unimaginably disgusting things in mass-distributed products from the grocery store, and I am not talking about unusual body parts here, but animal, and in some cases, human waste.

Ignorance certainly can be a blissful state of mind, but I feel getting milk and other food goods locally from a small operation where you can see and judge production conditions for yourself, is significantly more healthy than consuming bodily waste that has been pasteurized and processed enough to be considered safe for human consumption.
Click to expand...

I can honestly say I'm amazed at your post. As a proponent of all kinds of farming, including organic, I've honestly got to say I've never ever read anything like this. :?:
 
The guy who's filling his head full of this stuff,whether he wrote it on the internet,in a magazine or in some newsletter had better be REAL careful about planting this stuff in ignorant heads. I'd say he's opening himself up to some serious charges of criminal neglegence if his advice should lead to somebodys death. Just saying.
 
Your opinion has to be taken lightly on this matter, because of the possibility of your opinion being 'slightly' bias. Your putting out what are possibly half truths and people will take it as the truth. If I were in dairy, I'd want to protect that investment too. You're the most powerful tool the government has. People only trust the governemnt so much when they say not to drink raw milk, but when a down to earth farmer says it, there's a certain level of trust in that person. I just don't think that the government should have any say in whether I can drink raw milk when they let others smoke and drink. If it really were all about safety, why do all milk products have to be marketed through the DFO. Why can't you privately pasturize milk, get all the tests done, and sell it locally. Obviously this is about more then "is raw milk safe to drink" and steps into Canada's specific situation. Do you drink raw milk?
 
Obviously people were drinking milk before pasteurization was invented and quite a while after before it was in common use. Most of them didn't have any serious problems- if they had they probably wouldn't have kept drinking it!

But sometimes people did get sick and sometimes they even died. We figured out this very simple way of preventing that from happening so now we do it.

If you know all this and you still want to drink raw milk because you think the odds are low and the taste is better or whatever reason, fine. I wouldn't but there are bigger risks out there that people take all the time.

We certainly don't need the government to step in to decide this for us either.
 
On a regular basis? No, I do not drink/purchase raw milk on a routine. If it is offered at a friends farm, or some sort of gathering, I will. We have some very tasty, locally produced, glass bottled stuff up here in WI, so I am very lucky to have a very good supply for a reasonable price.

Should it be regulated? I guess the question is "how" to regulate it? How is the beef that I produce regulated? It is processed at a buthcer, that is a Wisconsin State approved butcher/inspector. He is not supposed to process downed or sick cattle.
Every bit of meat that is packaged, has his State Inspector licence number on the sealing tape.

This is the same for milk. You must have a pasteurization chart on record for the batch of milk you are bottling. If you are small batch pasteurizing, you can also do this. You just need a time/temperature recording chart machine. It is "proof" that reasonable care was taken to provide some level of quality assurance.

Now as to whether or not ANY form of government can totally screw simple things like these up, I leave you to your own opinion! :)
 
Obviously you have taken my opinion as some kind of personal offense, and I am sorry, as that was not my intent.

No, every product is not "local" based only on the idea that you bought it where you live. I can walk into just about any grocery or restaurant, pick up any food item and find that it was shipped from somewhere else in the country via a mass-distributor; including dairy which is outrageous considering the state I reside in.

Yes, I know what SCC is. I know that Grade A milk, which is what everyone buys from the store, can legally contain 500,000 to 1,000,000 scc/mL. I think that is absolutely insane! It is widely accepted that SCC levels in that range are clear indications of serious pathogens in the milk. But that milk is "OK" for human consumption because pasteurization will, in most cases, take care of it! Pasteurized or not, for me, that raises a health concern.

The main reason milk is pasteurized is because milk *can* contain dangerous levels of pathogens, which again, *in my opinion*, is a more common occurrence, and hence threat, in mass produced, mass processed, and mass distributed products. And yes, most of those pathogens in milk do come from contamination via waste from cows, either by entering the udder or through direct contamination of the milk itself.

Furthermore, go ahead and prove me wrong in knowing that massive recalls of pathogen-contaminated foods are not a perennial problem across this country. Peanuts, tomatoes, spinach, beef are recent examples, but it can happen with anything food product, including milk. And the pathogens in those recalls are always from animal waste contamination, or in some cases, unthinkably worse. Extremist and fantastical? No, reality.
 
SCC is an indication of damaged protein,not pathogens in the milk,and I believe the legal limit is 700,000 parts per million. There's talk of lowering it to 400,000,but producers in the south have a tough time meeting that because of the heat.
The indication of bacteria,which pasteurization kills,is the raw bactreia count and the pre incubated bacteria count. Although the PI is usually more an indication of unsanitary equipment.
 
Somatic Cell Count (SCC) is a count of white blood cells present in milk per sample unit. The cells are created by the cow, not by the milk. The cells are not created in response to damaged proteins in the milk, they are created to fight mastitis, a tissue infection inside the udder. These infections involve various pathogens, including E. Coli. Not all mastitis-related pathogens are dangerous when ingested, but some are.

The higher the SCC, the greater the infection rate of tissues in the udder. Secondly, but equally significant, a high herd average SCC usually indicates poor sanitary practices in the herd's environment and in the milking process that result in high pathogen contamination levels in milk.

http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/404/404-228/404-228.html
http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/news/dairy/2011/06-01/dp_2011-06-01-2.html
 
And it causes damaged protein that primarily lowers cheese yield. It's not that it's a threat to human health,just less value to the processor.
 
If the milk is from my cow in my barn, washed clean, dipped and a few flush squirts before filling the miller. An open top pail collects too much hair, dirt and manure. Then filtered and chilled in bottles known to be clean. Then fine by all means I want the stuff. Raw milk from uncontrolled sources? Not on your life. We still have people around here crippled from the e-coli from cow manure in the Walkerton water.
 
I have taken time to read all of the posts Being 82 years old, Born and raised on a Dairy Farm. Father ran a dairy and delivered milk door to door in the 20s & 30s. My father had one of the first herd in he state to be both free of TB and Brueclous(sp)Later he and I had a Golden Gurnsey Grade A Dairy. As I see it The big differce in milk is the what I call the strech method that processors use If you could buy true whole milk pasturized milk instead of the diluted lower-fat milk. Yes I know it meets government set standard.and the pretty littles misses may put on some weight. I know of at least two young women who are alive today because they could not stand to have fancy formula when they were young. They were put on pasurized Guernsey milk and took off and grew up healthy. Those Old Fawn and white girls have something in there milk that those black and whites do not have. gitrib
 
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