O/T Pet Vets

Kind of another topic, but what gives with these pet vets? Had the vet in twice last week for a calf and later in the day, for a cow down with milk fever. Total bill was $190 for two visits, one out of hours. Took both dogs for a visit for shot updates and a 'well-being' checkup at the local vet clinic for pets, and the bill was over $300. I am aware that vet school isn't cheap, but it almost seems that these guys are almost preying on the general public with their service prices. I was asked to give the dogs about ten different shots and tests for more maladies than I can pronounce, even though both dogs are young and about as fit as they can be, and each of them at extra cost, of course. They must have a course on salesmanship as part of the curriculum. Has anyone else noticed this?

He must have had a boat payment due. Geez,I thought it was outrageous when I had to pay $165 to get the dog treated when he licked his flea treatment and started convulsing.

I remember when the total charge for a milk fever was $19. Thought that was the end of the world.

I think you are on to something, but might not be vet school doing it. Years ago we had a local small animal vet we liked. He wanted to retire and sold the practice to VCA which is something of a franchise/chain for vets. New practitioners were fine vets, but constantly tried to "upsell" services. Came to the conclusion they were attending VCA seminars on maximizing profits/sales. We don"t use them anymore. Like our current vet just as well and I don"t know how he does it, but his pricing seems like it is half what we hear others charging.

$60.00 for vet to come out to the farm,$1.00 per minute once he is there. Extra charges for surgery, eg. DA-$300.00 pluss drugs , and no guarrentee. Makes you wounder sometimes if it would be cheaper just to shoot. the cow and take that loss. Cause sometimes you can pay big bucks to the Vet, and still have a dead cow to bury, two losses. I think you have maybe touched a nerve with me. Bruce

I have a daughter that is a "Pet Vet". She worked for a number of years for a national chain that has clinics in pet supply stores. They pushed her to recommend the highest dollar treatment. Get em in, fleece them and get em out. They fired her for telling customers about alternate treatments, and more reasonable places to take their animals. She now works in a city run shelter, and is much happier. She said she took an oath just like a MD and couldn't work like that with a clear conscience. Maybe that girl had some decent upbringing?

Nope... they"re not inexpensive. The ones out here are ok on fees but when we used to live closer to the city, their fees were definitely higher - maybe more overhead?
But consider this:
Had a young good dog that needed the equivalent of an ACL replacement. Pet Vet did it for a few hundred with something similar to fishing line. Had my ACL replaced a few years back - thankfully had a good insurance plan, but my out-of-pocket was more than a few hundred.
Take that a step farther - You can take your pet in, get a diagnosis and the meds all within an hour or so usually. But for us, we go in, get referred to a specialist, get tested, wait a few days or weeks for someone to read the results, then make another appointment to hear the results, then.... you get the picture. I keep telling my wife (who is in the medical profession) if she comes around the house and sees me lying on the ground under the ladder in bad shape, either finish me off or take me to a vet.
You can all imagine what she would do....

My daughter-in-law is a "pet vet".

Malpractice insurance for "pet vets" is nearly the same as malpractice insurance for "human doctors". Then there's liability ins. to cover the pet owners that pass through the office. Most vets have facilities to board animals. That requires substancial cost for maintaining/cleaning/staffing/ect.

Vetinary asistants make decent money in many cases. Many vets have 2 or 3 working in their office.

Then there's rent (or cost of ownership) for office space.

Vets have to stock in quite an extensive inventory of meds/supplies due to the variety of species they might treat. That has a cost involved.

The high cost of doing business must be passed on to customers.

With a practice that turned nearly $400,000 gross reciepts in a year, DIL netted less than $35,000 in personal income last year.

After seeing what's involved in operating a vetinary clinic, my personal opinion is, they don't charge enough.

I have been discussing excessive Vet bills with my State Senator. Findings thus far are Vet schools are limiting/slightly reducing the number of seats in just to keep prices up. There are also problems in some areas finding a Vet willing to visit a farm.

Please share your concerns with your elected people, if enough people complain something will get done.

This is not a political statement, just asking others to help get something done. It does not matter which party you belong to or support (if any.)

There has been a LOT of inflation during my 61 years. And so we MUST remember that the dollar of 2012 is not the same as the dollar of 1960, 0r 1970, or 1980, or 1990, or 2000, or even 2010. Everything costs a much larger amount of dollars to buy now that the same thing did in the past. A friend of mine estimated that the buying power of today"s dollar is about the same buying power that a dime had in 1970, when we were in college together.

The past few years, the government has claimed that there was little or no inflation, but they sure can"t make me believe it every time I go to the grocery store or gas station.

The trick is finding out some way to make your income keep up with inflation, so your real buying power does not become a whole lot less. I wish I knew how to do that.

When I was a kid, we had the Vet come out to our ranch to look at a cow a couple of times, and I didn"t ever hear how much it cost. But my Dad always said we couldn"t call the Vet very often, because it cost way too much. I remember that once a couple of month old calf suddenly died, and Dad and I did an "autopsy" on the calf ourselves to try to see what happened, rather than calling the Vet. It turned out that the calf got an intestinal blockage from some plastic wrap it apparently ate. It was an interesting, but not pleasant job to cut open that calf, but Dad didn"t think it would be worth it to have a Vet bill on top of losing the calf.

In 1970, a fairly expensive new car cost $5000. Today I don"t think there are almost ANY new cars for less than about $15,000, and a fairly expensive car might be $50,000.

Vet school is hard to get accepted into and it is expensive to get that education and expertise. Just like everyone else, that Vet has been affected by inflation. They have to make a living and probably also have to pay several other support employees to stay in business.

So do I flinch when my old dog"s yearly checkup, in the Vets office, which takes no more than about 10 minutes, costs $100? Nope, I love that dog, and I want her to do the best possible and live as long as she comfortably can. Would I like to pay less? Sure, but I will pay the going rate if I have to. Almost anything costs more now than it used to.

Inflation affects everything.

The money is in small animal practice. It is harder to get into vet school than medical school. Median salary is 82K. Top pay is 145K.
Just googled the BLS database.

I have been a veterinarian in solo mixed practice for 40 years, my cost to stay in business has soared in recent years. Drug costs now have 7-30% increases most years, instead of the 3-5% years ago, you guys know the cost of a pickup and to keep it on the road to do farm calls. The last time I needed the air conditioner repair man, the service call was $150 for a 6 mile drive to my office.

I have a 1400 sq. foot building for small animals and it cost $175,000 years ago and about another $80,000 for basic equipment. To keep good employees it is costing more, I lost a 12 year employee this month and the replacement starting next month is costing more.

Health insurance now costs over $30,000 per year, property taxes are $5300, drugs $70,000. there are many more expenses, wages, building insurance, liability insurance, utilities, continuing education, license fees, building repairs, lab equipment maintenance contract, retirement money and etc. Two years ago it cost $4000 for computer software and $5000 for new computers to replace 10 year old outdated ones. It costs $1145 per year for computer software support and upgrades.

The average debt of a new vet school grad is almost $200,000 and they also have car payments, housing expenses, maybe kids to raise and etc. Buying into a practice is high also and very few can start from scratch on their own.

Yes I have made a good living, but not riches. Be glad the young vets are vets as starting wages for MD's are much higher and if money is the goal, they are not vets.

The above fees do not seem extra high, routine annual checkups and exam fees, vaccinations, heartworm meds, flea and tick meds can easily top $150.00 We like to meet a standard of general care and offer services that are needed by your pet, if you want to decline, that is your choice and right.

The lowest fees are generally from smaller rural practices and the highest by corporate chains. Also remember cheapest is not always the best. I hope my long post gives some helpful information to the other side and yes increase costs and debts are a problem for many veterinarians.

Good, insightful post Dave.
Thanks.

Just had my dog in at the vet. Rabie and distemper shots, check dog over and checked for worms. $ 59.

Doc, I don't dispute the costs associated with vet school. My GFather was the first registered vet in the state, and I spent many a day, with the memories to boot, of traveling with him to many dairies and farms in our region, treating anything from horses and cows to parakeets and guineas. My main pick is with the salesman attitude of not only the vet but the VA's wanting to test and charge for just about every malady known to affect dogs even if there is no symptom or real need to. For me to take the animal to the clinic and be charged as much for the visit as my large animal vet charges me to come to the farm, and then twice because there are two dogs, is a bit of a stretch. I will be the first to stand in line and defend vet charges that are reasonable. My large animal vet is reasonable, and I depend on him more than I can ever thank him. But he has never tried to sell me on a bunch of tests and medications with 'almost every animal in the area is getting this dreaded disease' just to run the bill up. And when I looked at the bill for the dogs, and then checked my meds catalog from my supplier, I find the same flea and tick formula from them is about 50% of the cost from the dog clinic. My 'old' small animal vet retired about three or four years ago when she and her husband vet sold their practice and retired at fifty. They just built an $800k home on her father's farm, and now play golf and sail the Chesapeake all year round between cruises and parties. I guess I just have an appreciation for a good and dedicated large animal vet and am beginning to have some disgust for the sales business and those slick flyers in the pet clinic telling me how sick my dog really is gonna be.

My old vet has undercharged me for at least 30 years that I'm aware of. I don't know how he stays in business. A couple of years ago he worked 'til midnight on a prolapsed cow and charged me $50. Last summer he worked all afternoon pulling a dead calf in five pieces - $160. Saved the cow and she went on to the stockyard a month later. I automatically add 50% to whatever his bill comes to when he comes to the farm, and I still feel like I'm shysting him. He gave my dog her shots the last time he was here - $42. He checks the project animals for the FFA kids for no fee. The nicest guy you ever met. His truck looks like it won't get him home. I sent him a Christmas card last December with a gift certificate for a nice steak dinner for him and his wife. I dread the day he retires. It can't be far off. . .

I've asked my vet if he could give my dog a rabies nnalert as long as he was coming out for the day to run calves. The answer was "NOPE!". I said "Come on, you don't even need to use the chute for that one!". Instead my wife had to take the dog in and go through the pretend doctor's office waiting room set and pay five times more for the experience. The whole thing is pretty ridiculous in my opinion.

A few years ago, a young vet bought the big animal part off the vet business and the original owner does only pets now (because that's where the money is). The contract states that the young vet can't do any pet work. The young vet did put my Dad's dog down for him (for free) when he was here on a cattle call though. It was just good timing, I guess. I'm glad my Dad or I didn't have to shoot a dog we loved, or worse yet, load that poor girl up for a bumpy 20 minute car ride and 20 minute waiting room visit and a huge bill. The guy pretty much guaranteed getting my business forever though.

Simple solution. The alternative would be not to take the animals to the vet. Take your, their chances and gamble the odds and live with your decision.

If I can't or couldn't afford their preventives, best thing I could do would to be pass them up, and let them take their chances at a better life with someone or somewhere else. These days with the economy being what it isn't, pounds are overloaded with pets being dumped off everywhere. People are finding themselves having to make choices, financial choices to make ends, and all too often, Fido the beloved family member is getting the boot out the door along some unfamiliar roads, and because we are all too often slow learners, we will no doubt reelect more of the same, and then blame our poor decisions on someone else. Thats what we do these days.

The prices on everything, and I mean everything are going up for everyone, so the costs get passed along. My costs of doing business while I am fortunate and greatful enough to still be in business, get passed along no differently than anyone elses. No one, well most no one, is in business to lose money. No one in the private sector anyway unless looking for a specific tax loss or write off.

Mark

Dave: Lets look at the what the cost to start farming today would be.
1) The 360 acre home farm would easily bring $2.7 million. That is $7500 per acre. ( I turned that down last fall)
2) I am willing to use some older equipment, so lets just buy a used tractor and combine. Five years old each. It would still cost $300K to buy a complete line.

So lets start out farming with $3,000,000 of debt. Along with the real joy of a roller coaster commodity market. I bet that a Vet will clear more money each eyar.

It makes me see red when someone tells me how much he spent going to school. So a Young vet today has $200K in college debt when he gets out. That education can not be repossessed and he will earn a much higher living for the next 35-40 years. So that is only $4-5K for each year of High income.

What someone spends going to college is a drop in the bucket compared to what the financial risk I take every year planting a crop.

YUPPIES! The same problem that TSC has...YUPPIES. Yuppies don't own livestock or your 2 cow visits would been $600 instead of $190! Yuppies do have dogs, and spend lavishly on them: pet parks, pet booties, pet sweaters...I love my dog and furtunately have a realistic, very good and very affordable vet, or I'd be paying the long buck too!
Same reason car dealerships can charge $100 for oil change and lube and $50 to rotate your tires. I have buddies at work who if I mentioned changing their own oil or rotating their own tires would look at me like I have three heads! Heck most of 'em don't even have their tires rotated...just buy new ones alot more often than those of us who rotate 'em do!

(reply to post at 17:32:44 04/24/12)

Click to expand...

I always get a kick outta the folks that jump in to defend price gouging......
I always wonder if it's because they are crooks tghemselves or just stupid enough to pay the gougers are are on the defense....

Sure there are honest folks in every profession (even if it's making hay). but a crook is a crook, regardless of the jacket you put on em.....

Wife does most everything to our animals herself except surgery or anything requiring more than local anesthesia, but we have to use a vet sometimes..

Couple examples of charges from vets in an area of high rent, high tuition, 10 buck a gallon fuel, and 19% sales tax...

Dog:
Checkup w/shots + rabies= 60 bucks
Castration (total bill with sleepover)= 90 bucks
Have to take the breeders in once for hip and elbow exrays and blood tests and yearly for eye tests. Just took two in for the xrays (have to be knocked out), blood, and first eye test to a specialized clinic. Total bill for both dogs was right at 600 bucks.

Horses:
farrier= he comes to the house, I load him in my car and take him where needed.... Trim= 12 bucks

Had a 2 vets and a helper drive 30 miles one way to castrate two, one vet came back for a follow up check. total bill for both was 600 bucks.

Don't get one often if ever, but an ultrasound (at the house or on the pasture) is 90 bucks.

Wife draws blood for pregnancy tests and sends it to the lab. 15 bucks for the lab test.

People:
I had a root canal and 2 fillings. Total from initial visit to last follow up was just at 200 bucks.

I had a birthmark removed on my head with laser (looked like a stone on a horses leg)... Total for initial visit, checking for cancer, and taking it off was 110 bucks...

My appendix burst: Initial doctor visit with a bellyache, poking and deciding I was about gone, ride from doctor office to ER, surgery, week+ in hospital with antibiotics and an extra tube in the gut, followup visit to take out a stitch, and the total bill was 3500 bucks.

On the people side, these are total prices because I have to pay cash and get reimbursed by my insurance..

Some of us Americans are just flat out crooks and we have them over here as well.....

Now, let's see how many jump in and tell me that it's cause I'm in the midst of nazis and socialist's and been here too long....

On another note...
Small square bale of hay (30-40 pounds) costs a buck to a buck fifty.... same size (not weight) straw bale = 50 cents

Everthing has gone crazy.I made house calls fixing TVs and appliances for 4 bucks.in the late 60s.Sears gets 115 bucks for a house call now.My real estate taxes went to 2100 bucks this year.Doubled in 10 years.It costs me 12 bucks in gas to haul lumber for picnic tables I build.Ive had to raise my price 10.00 this year.It was raise the price or quit building them.I notice that people who charge high prices are cheap skates when they buy.Two fellows who do dry wall stopped and asked the price on a table.I told them 125.00.Ill think about it was the reply.I told them I know two places where they can pay more.I build a good 8 foot table, been doing them for 50 years.The average income in this town is 40K per year.That figures out to 20 bucks an hour.The vet I take my dog to has 3 other vets plus 6 assistants and 2 office help.The old time large animal vets are long gone.

I grew up on a farm, still own farm land and understand the costs envolved. I elected to keep my Veterinary Clinic smaller and cheaper and have done ok. Some of the multi million dollar clinics around here have not survived or are struggling. Starting wages for new grads have fallen with an average of about $65,000. When they have school debts of $200,000, a car and house payments of $3000 or more per month does not leave much. Then there is the investment to buy into a practice and in the end earnings have to go up over to $100,000 to pay for all of this. This is why fees often seem high to pay for all of this.

Yes the investment to plant a crop is much greater, but you also can buy crop insurance that is partially paid for by uncle Sam, I have seen local farmers do a poor job ( not the norm) and collect a profit, their is no such insurance in Vet Med to insure a profit. I have an advantage over younger vets that I have no debts and each of us as individuals have to make decisions that determine our careers.

I had the same vet, except for major problems, for over 20 years until he retired. I agree; if you can't afford the preventatives don't own the animals. When it comes to dogs, you can't buy that devotion or protection at any price.

Larry

My brother takes a half day off of work and drives 90 miles to the farm to bring his wifes cats to the local vet service clinic. the same vet service that does all my farm calls. He still saves over half on what the "yuppie vets for pets" in his town charges.

I have been going to the dealer for oil changes, rotate etc on my last 2 Chevys for 11 years.
Lube, oil and filter plus 20 point inspection, check and top off all fluids is $26. Rotate is $18 or $20.
Includes a car wash when I leave.

One thing that hasn't been addressed here is the cost of an education. The cost of even a bachelors degree has been increasing at near double digit inflation for years now and there is no way a young kid can go to school any more without taking on all kinds of debt.
Yet tenured faculties get their annual pay raises, can't be fired for anything short of murder and increasingly seem to be more radical politically.
Higher ed is a sacred cow that this nation is going to have to take by the horns if we're going to have any educated people at all in this country.
It grieves me to see a bright young vetrinary, engineering or other student graduate with $200K in debt.

Its the same up here, better money playing with pets then livestock. If I was a vet I would rather give a dog a needle the stick my arm up a cows azz.

Its the same up here, better money playing with pets then livestock. If I was a vet I would rather give a dog a needle the stick my arm up a cows azz.

Yes sir, my thoughts exactly. I farm, but work part time in town just to pay my student loan payments. I don't regret my education but I sure don't feel sorry for the vet. Sat in the waiting room yesterday with 3 cows in the trailer and watched people come and go. My bill for far more serious ailments was a fraction of those who went through with small animals for minor things. Yes I understand that my good old vet didn't make any money off me but why on earth should a ten minute office visit on a boxer cost 3 times more than the evacuation of abcesses on 3 replacement heifers?

(quoted from post at 04:30:42 04/25/12) I had the same vet, except for major problems, for over 20 years until he retired. I agree; if you can't afford the preventatives don't own the animals. When it comes to dogs, you can't buy that devotion or protection at any price.

Larry

Click to expand...

CHA CHING!!!!!!!

That and no other reason is why prices are so high at the vet, anything pet related is thru the roof, and people call folks that they assume have a couple more bucks than they do yuppies.......
Those jetset vets also drive the price of vet supplies up to where an honest vet can't compete and keep his prices reasonable...

Just keep on keepin on and defend the crooks all you want.......

I confirm what you say about meds. I buy and give my horses' vaccinations myself. I order the shots online. In the 20+ yrs I've been doing this, I've seen the cost of the same shot triple. Plus, they now require overnight shipping on vaccines which is an additional $15.

The only thing I've seen get cheaper is the ivermectin wormer and that's because the patent expired and there are numerous generics available.

(quoted from post at 06:38:29 04/25/12) I confirm what you say about meds. I buy and give my horses' vaccinations myself. I order the shots online. In the 20+ yrs I've been doing this, I've seen the cost of the same shot triple. Plus, they now require overnight shipping on vaccines which is an additional $15.

The only thing I've seen get cheaper is the ivermectin wormer and that's because the patent expired and there are numerous generics available.

Click to expand...

Order from Jeffers and put in the remarks that you'll accept full responsibility for the condition of the vaccines... Maybe ask them to ship on a Thursday or Friday to avoid laying somewhere over an extra weekend... They ship to us USPS Prioritywithout a problem...

As a mixed small animal/equine veterinarian that "owns" (or should I say the bank owns) his own practice I can tell you first hand vets are like any other occupation. There are some good ones and some that are less, some barely make ends meet at the end of the month and others take advantage or regional income and have much higher costs. Im just starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel after 10 years paying off student loans at $500 a month. I was fortunate in that I worked my way thru school and "only" had about $45000 in debt when I graduated. The average starting salary is/was around the $50K mark; the first job I started at worked me about 60-70 hours a week (averaged $17 an hour). My office (which is by no means state of the art) has electric, heat, phone bills as well as rent and payroll to meet every month. My average office call involves an examination fee, most often vaccines, taking blood samples, and wrestling with dogs that are trying to bite you while you trim their nails. I add a few dollars to my nnalert costs, same with the heartworm/flea preventatives. Basic exam for a dog, DHLPP-C, and Rabies nnalert is $62.00. Bring a second dog with you and I drop the second exam fee, vaccines are still the same for a total of $116.00. I do recommend heartworm prevention, cost depends on the size of the dog -- you can blame the manufacturers if the cost is too high; it can easily come to $300 if you have larger dogs. Of that $300 I clear at best $50-60. I take my time with my clients, answer every question they may have, and explain why I give certain vaccines. Some appointments can take 15 minutes, some take the better part of 30 minutes to an hour depending on the client. If youd rather buy the nnalert and hope you are giving the correct shot, dose, etc by all means go for it.
I provide a good service for my clients and do manage to pay my bills at the end of every month. Add the costs of insurance, taxes, etc. and I seriously wonder why someone would consider a career in veterinary medicine in today's economy.
Sorry if I sound negative; seems like there is not a day that goes by when folks expect something done for nothing. The insurance system has not screwed up veterinary medicine (yet) the way it has human medicine; part of me thinks it wont be long before that happens though.

My daughter has just been accepted into Geulph University in Ontario.4 years for her bachelour of science and then 3-4 years for vet medicine.Shes need $17,876.00 for her first year which includes tution and residence.Plus travel expense car insurance gas maintence books clothes. She has already been offered some scholarships and is applying for some more. She has been working and voluntering for a vet for the last couple of years and they can't wait for her finish already.She wants to be a large animal vet,that's what they need but hard to find.Everbody looks at things differently a farmer wont spend $1,000.00 on a $500.00 animal but the little old lady will spend thousands on her cat(me included)

Probably be cheaper if we could get vet service from China,wouldn't be any good though.....