OOPS !!!!!!!!!!!

I built a D333 CAT engine for a customer last year and put it back in service in late July, early August. Since that time it shows he has put a whole 124 hours on it, as shown on the brand new, mechanical, hour meter (((I installed it as part of the build so I know it's new and relatively accurate))). Anyway, I got a call that the engine made a loud clunking sound, spit water up under the hood from the front end of the engine, so they shut it down. Here are a few pics of what I found when I went to check it out. Looks like it broke the head off of the intake valve on #1 and inbedded it into the top of the piston, and then proceeded to hit the end of the percombustion chamber and knocked it out the top of the head.

Now this was a brand new head that was bought to replace the old one which was cracked. Given the age of the engine this was the ONLY make/brand head I could find anywhere so using it was the only choice. It came completely assembled, ready to set on. In other words neither myself or the customer did anything to cause the problem.

That said the actual waranty period on the head was 6 months but it has been about 8 months since it was installed. I called the place I got it and they said to return it for inspection. Hopefully they will still warranty it no more actual hours than it has on it.

The customer and I both agree that neither of us is at fault, because the head came completely assembled and part of that assembly was what failed. That leads me to a question for ya'll since I have never run into a problem like this with any of the engines I have built. What would you expect warranty wise on the whole deal? I mean I know we both expect the mfg of the head to cover it, especially given that the loaded head was nearly $3000. Personally I think they ought to be on the hook for all of the damage caused by a faulty product but at the same time I know every warranty written finds a way around that. Given that it is out of warranty, even with the low hours, they have an out if they choose it, but if the do decide to cover the cost of the head, what else would you expect out of the deal? Remember now the customer and I both agree that the problem was not caused by anything either of us did.

I have what I think is fair in mind, given the circumstances, but I am still curious as to what you guys think.

Oh, almost forgot, here are a few pics

Now I assume that Cat no longer offers a reman D333 head?

This could get sticky, and you may have to do some "goodwill" on your own part laborwise to keep the customer, and more importantly keep the customer from blabbing all over. Even though the issue does not appear to be a defect in your workmanship, after the caranage has happened it can be hard to tell.

All people will say is "the motor done blowed up right after so and so rebuilt it..."

Hopefully the people you bought the head from will help you out, though they may just replace the head and maybe pay for the cost of a new kit for the destroyed slug!

Head builder buys a new head, customer pays for the other parts and you eat the labor.
May not be completely right but that is how it will fall I bet.
No one can predict a failure like that.

looks like the valve spring keepers popped out and let the valve get sucked into cyclinder , factory did'nt make sure they were set in place good , just a thought , they should cover the whole cost

Since the parts are out of warranty I will assume the labor is also out of warranty.

As the owner I know either of you; parts supplier and mechanic do not know my operator or how he or I treat equipment.
Since it has very low hours; is just 2 months out of warranty; I think I would be happy if the parts people provided a new head; you did the labor for free; and I covered all other cost.

I've seen 2 engines like that, JD 45 gas when I was pretty small, dad was able to have the head rebuilt, new piston & he honed the cylinder wall to take out the dings. It sure used a ot of oil after that.....

The other was the gas 6-cyl AC Gleaner combine I owned. It went BANG & stopped making noise in a couplr revolutions. When the mechanic dropped the oil pan, a whole assortment of bits fell out - including short segments of camshaft.

So, the problem is, if the parts are covered by the head shop, what about your labor?

That's a tough one. Not your fault, not the costomer's fault, and bet the head shop will barely offer hardware, nothing for labor. Leaves you 2 in the lurch. I suppose 50-50 would be about what will keep everyone in the loop, not fair, but....?

--->Paul

THere Except for Me Go I ,. Really Sorry about Your luck .. few years ago a sad 1070 Case came wandering up the drive lookin for a home , it was too sik to work , had a cracked head , Ruscha gave me a good deal on a head , MY son and I changed it out , All went well, and we started it up And It RAN GREAT , we were adjusting the valves and nearly done ,, When My Eagle eye son asked me why a valve spring on another head was odd looking ,, it was on the head under the cab cowling that we had not touched ,,That spring was just the devils breath from letting go,, AND YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD HAD HAPPENED NEXT ! we pulled that cylindars injector, filled the head with compressed air , and easily made the repair from parts from the cracked head ,,My son and I thouht it was neat How we held the valve in place with compressed air,, NEVER had to do A REPAIR LIKE THAT before , but i hear of them too often , and now i wonder if occassionally we should pull valve covers and inspect those keepers ???..

Are you talking about Ruscha at Verona, MO or Aurora.

RUSCHA is between the 2 towns .. Thad is wonderful!,, THE HEAD THEY SHIPPED WAS PERFECT,...the keeper was coming out of one of the workin good heads left on the 1070 ..

Don"t hold your breath.

The first problem is going to be if it can be determined what caused the valve to break.

Did the lash adjuster back off on that valve? Is there any unusual wear on the keepers or the spring retainer? Problems with the adjustment or debris getting between the valve seat and valve face causing the valve to hang open enough for the piston to hit it could be reasons for failure based on installation.

Is there any history of this series engine having this type of valve failure? You said it was the only brand of head available but didn't specify if it was a Cat head or aftermarket. Can you tell if the valve head broke first or was it a keeper failure that allowed the valve to drop? Are they sodium filled valve stems where they was a flaw in the valve?

Knowing those answers would go a long way toward arguing for warranty coverage.

That's what I was thinking.

Neighbors VW van did that about 35 years ago. I replaced/reground the valve and piston/rings. Everything else looked good and it ran fine. After a few months he got worried and sold it, but it ran fine.

I have something like your situation going on at my shop right now. We recently replaced head gaskets on a IMS Dodge mini van. the engine came apart, not due to anything we did. It really wasn't a warranty situation, and the van is marginal, but we found a used engine and charged only for the difference between the original work and replacing the engine. the customer is satisfied and we don't lose too badly. Sometimes these situations are the joys of being in business.

If this guy is a really good customer,I would try to get the supplier to at least pro rate some of the cost of a new head.If they agree the head was defective they may also help with labor,or at least gaskets ,etc.If not, ask the customer to pay for the parts and you supply the labor. You will keep the customer happy and you can make it up in years to come. Been there done that more than once in the last 35 years. I have customers that are still with me that were there the day I opened my doors.

Best case secarno would be head builder supplies new head, you do the labor, customer pays for other parts, IF YOU ARE LUCKY.. Wayne on the JD cylinder I sent you the e-mail on we were both not that dumb...Can,t be serviced any way without cutting the other end of the cylinder and pulling out the rod then re welding. Like a factor repair leave it to mother deer do something like that.

well that definately sucks. But it happens. the customer should not pay a dime to fix that engine unless he did something wrong running it. You are going to have to fight over it with head supplier. I had a problem like that last year. machine shop screwed up a head but I should have checked it out before installing it. needless to say both the machine shop and me lost out on that deal. Also one time I overhauled a jd466 and put jd pistons and liners in it. put it together fired it up and ran ok but kept using oil.Tore it down and one liner piston assembly was missing two rings. i got screwed on that deal. now every liner assembly i get i take apart and make sure its right.

With out looking at all the EXTRA PIECES and parts closely it is hard to say what let go first. If you have followed my posts on the fun times with the pistons in 706 gassers over fuel issues i know wright where your coming from. That is not the first engine i have seen in the fifty years i have been twisten wrenches that the head of the valve came off due to a flaw in the weld . But anyway ya look at it it is LUNCH TIME.

probably a limited liabilty issue,not actually under warranty and if it was they might give you a valve and spring and say under there warranty they are not liable for any damage caused.

A lot of it depends on your relationship with the dealer and if he will go to bat for you. As per the written warranty guidelines it is out of warranty. However, it is not uncommon for for suppliers to assist as "a gesture of good will". If they call it warranty, everyone in your situation will be covered no questions asked.
If you are unhappy with the dealers settlement (or lack of) call Cat's customer relations number and carefully explain the situation. Try to be factual and keep the emotion out of it.
I can't speak for Cat but Cummins and Deere will normally do something, but I have not looked at the parts with the exception of your pictures.
Did the operator report a misfire or smoke before the massive failure?

Times like this folks might realize that fixing someone else's machines isn't all gravy and big profits. You don't say what the customer felt about the original repair bill, maybe he is someone that understands the cost of running a shop and having to net enough out of a job to keep you feed your lights & water on and a little in the back to cover things like this. If the head is out of warranty and they make it right I'd be thankful for that, leaving the question how good of a customer is this, if you bleed cash and make it right will he be happy or will he tell everyone about YOUR shoddy workmanship? If you make him whole at no or little cost 1- can you afford it? 2- will the customer be happy and tell everyone how you stepped up when it wasn't really your fault? and 3- will the next head be good or are you launching another time bomb?

Given the age of the machine they didn't have a head for it anymore, so it didn't come from CAT, it was an aftermarket piece from a reputible company.

I understand what your saying about liability in a situation like this, and in a normal situation I would have to agree. Thing is for jobs this large, given the current economy, I've gotten to where I do not buy any parts because I can't stand to get stuck with hard money out that I might not recoup. So, all I do is supply the labor to put the parts together. In other words the customer actually bought everything so I technicaslly don't have any dog in the fight between the customer and the mfg since I did not buy the part from them, the customer did.

I've seen a few of the big, multistage, telescopic cylinders designed like that, but never something as simple/small as a forklift cylinder....That's just plain stupid. Don't feel alone in dealing with the stupidity though, I just got a call back from Deere the other day on the wiring on the combine cab I've been working on setting up for a customer as an operating station. According to the message I got they found s little bit on the wiring, but then it got way too complicated for them to help me, and that I needed to call a dealership. Funny thing, I called three dealerships so far and the answer I get is that they don't know anything either and there is little to nothing in the service manual. Heck all I need to know is which posts on the instrument cluster connection go to which guage....It shouldn't be rocket science, and although it took a little bit of time, I've already figured out the actual guages on my own, now I've just got to figure out why there are two ground wires, and why one of the warning lights works when several different wires are hooked up, and the other doesn't work at all even though the bulb is good....

I have been there a few times, where do you live I am at Ash grove.

I know what you are saying but you put it together and are responsible even though it wasnt your fault. when i do a job i have to assume some responsibility for the parts I install. say you put an engine together with new rod bolts and the threads on the bolts dont look right. motor comes apart because you installed them instead of rejecting them. Now you have a fight with the manufacturer of the bolts.I reject any parts i dont like. last engine kit i got i sent the cam brgs and 2 main brgs back because i didnt like them and didnt want to take a chance on someone elses engine. Because i dont get paid to redo the job.

Again I understand what your saying and in the instances you mention I completely agree. Thing is when something like a loaded, bolt on ready, head is purchased the customer also purchases a warranty on the assembled head from the mfg. IF I were to disassemble it to 'check it out' then I would void any and all warranties given by the mfg. on their assembled part. Too I would only be wasting the customers money to tear down and reassemble a part they have already paid to have assembled and properly tested. Not to mention that at that point in time I would be making myself 100% responsible for any and everything that might happen to that part even though I know nothing about where it's individual components came from.

To me doing that would be completely stupid on my part. Just like most part mfgs warranty only their parts and not the assembly it's attached to, I can't very well warranty anything but my labor installing said parts anymore than the parts mfg will warranty my labor for me...

That said, as it stands what I am planning in this situation, regardless of what happens with the warranty, is to let the customer cover the cost of any parts needed and I plan to cover the labor out of my pocket. Heck between three days labor, fuel to the machine's location and back, at least one night in a motel, and any other misc expenses, it's already going to cost me somewhere around $1500 at a time when I can lease afford to lose that kind of money...

Unfortunately when your in this business, in the current economy, you have to do things a bit differently than when things were rolling along and the money was rolling in. The way I have to look at it is that I had to cover evertything out of my pocket right now, then there would be no warranty at all on the machine because I would no longer be in business....Like I said there is a competely different outlook on things now than there was just a few years back and I hate it just as much as the next guy...but fact is, "It is what it is, like it or not"....

Pretty much what I plan to do. This guy was a first time customer, given my name by a long time customer, so thankfully he knows the quality of my work. Beyond that, one of the reasons I had to built the engine in the first place was the last 2 guys that worked on it for him (((one was from the dealership))) didn't have a clue what they were doing and never caught that the turbo was bad and most likely the cause of the low/no power problem. Unfortunately when they couldn't figure out the problem the engine was left setting for several years with loose fasteners on the valve cover so the engine got filled with water. You wouldn't believe how much an engine can rust up on the inside when left setting...especially on the top end. Heck it took me several hours to get the rocker arm shaft bead blasted and cleaned up, and then get all of the oil passages inside the rocker arms opened back up. What a PITA....

Adjuster was properly adjusted before the engine was placed in servicem, and everything was still tight. In fact when I build one I torque everything that has a torque value listed to the specified torque and mark it so I know it was torqued so there are no issues there. To me this is the only way to build an engine because it limits the things that can go wrong from making an educated guess that isn't quite 'educated enough".... Like I said before I have never had a problem with an engine I've built for a customer so this is new territory for me. I have done everything from lawnmower engines to some of the big, inline CAT's to 8V92 Detroits, along with quite a few of the inline number series Detroits...and never had a problem with any of engines, and some of them have now been in service for upwards of 12 years.

Pretty much what I was thinking. In this case I have watched the operator/owner, who is an older guy, and he doesn't abuse the machine in the slightest. That said I have heard of engines being overspead in years past when working on a downhill cut, but those machines had straight drive transmissions. In this case the machine has a powershift and the ground is a good, flat 15 acre plus worth of ground that the customer has been using this machine and a few others to get clear. In other words I know there was no operator error, if for no other reason than the limited damage to the engine caused by him having the knowedge/sense to shut it down the second he heard something pop. Unfortunately I know of very few operators nowdays with that much sense....