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Best way to get these bolts out without breaking them?

W

Will Herring

Well-known Member
Dnob2.jpg


Trying to replace the thermostat on my old WD, and these small bolts (there's 3 of them) that hold the thing on are seized solid.

I keep spraying it with stuff like PB Blaster and coating them with ATF... And they won't budge.

I have been hesistant to hit it with a torch for fear of damaging anything nearby.

What's the best way to get these guys out? I'm up for trying anything. And I've got time. I won't be using the tractor again for probably 6 months; so long term solutions are fine.
 
My best luck on bolts in thermostat housing is to warm up the cast ears where the bolts are threaded in, then quick cool with water and try to wrench them out. If that does'nt work warm up the same again then try to wrench out back and forth. Andy
 
Well if they go through you could drill them out from the back. I would adjust my torch so it has a small flame with a bit of an over oxygen fire to shorten the flame. Hold so it aims away from things and warm it up.
 
Heat the head of the bolt with your torch until it turns cherry red. If it doesn't turn out easily, heat it some more. Don't bother trying to heat the casting, you'll never get it hot enough to make a difference.

If you're worried about hitting something nearby with the torch, swap out the cutting head for a small brazing tip. Since you're heating the bolt and not the surrounding cast iron, it doesn't take a lot of heat.
 
Heat the casting, apply candle wax as it cools. Heating the bolt gets the head hot quickly, before heat gets very deep. Better to have that latent heat in the casting, working to melt the wax. Use a piece of sheet metal to shield the backside, so you don"t set the grease on fire.
 
I guess my major fear is that the flange is so thin that too much heat could cause it to either warp or split, and I'm not sure I could replace the part. I'm not highly experienced with a torch.
 
If all things mention fail then use die grinder to remove top of bolts then drill out the studs with drill bit, re thread the holes.
 
Looks like you might have a late WD, not an old one! My method is more in line with JMS's. Note that the bolts have no markings on them. They will twist off easily. You are going to replace that rusted out housing too aren't you? You'll need new, longer bolts anyhow.
 
(quoted from post at 18:46:06 12/16/12) Looks like you might have a late WD, not an old one! My method is more in line with JMS's. Note that the bolts have no markings on them. They will twist off easily. You are going to replace that rusted out housing too aren't you? You'll need new, longer bolts anyhow.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's a... 53 WD, I believe. Can you buy replacement housings? And just from playing around with this, I have a strong fear that I am going to twist the bolt heads off.
 
Will do just what AMB (WeIL) said. I did the same thing last week and it does work. The bolts that I had to get out of cast were 1/4 inch bolts and were slot screw driver head. I heated the cast up on each one and put a screw driver to it and they came right out. Don't worry you will not warp the cast.

Bob
 
I would just heat the flanges up. You are not going to warp them or hurt them in anyway. If you do not have a acetylene torch then just use a propane one. You do not have to heat the housing that much for the bolts to loosen up.
 
Yep they can be fun. If you had the head off it is easy to get ATF etc where you need it but with the head on not so easy. Heat it up and then with it still hot pour ATF on and if you have an old pumper oil can shoot it up from the bottom side. Also some times taking a center punch and hitting the center of the bolt head can help free them up
 
While everyone is throwing out ideas I'll toss out another.

If you have a pistol grip pneumatic hammer, lay into it and give
each bolt head a few short blasts.

This method recently worked on a cummins exhaust manifold.

Good luck with whatever method you choose.
 
The best thing to do is to go ahead and try to get them out, if you twist them off, fine, if not then your good to go. That said, you can heat and quench the bolt with causes it to expand and then contract, often breaking the rust free if your lucky. If not it also helps to heat the housing which causes it to expand away from the bolt, also breaking the rust's hold if your lucky. Too, heating the housing soaking it with penetrating oil, and then smacking the head with a hammer a few times will often break the rust free.

Hopefully the bolts will at least move and break free from one of the above proceedures. Getting them broke free is good, but it's still no guarantee they ar going to come out. Once 'broke free' work them back and forth loosening and tightening them, while keeping them soaked with penetrating oil, so it wil wick it's way into th threads and help them come out easier.

If they break off, grind them fluch with the housing and then use a center punch to mark as close to center as humanly possible. Once marked use a small bit, like a 1/8" to drill a hole through the broken piece. Then step the bit up in size in small incriments until you either get the piece to break free with an easy out, or you get it thin enough to see the tops of the threads. If you get it to that point use a small, sharp, Cape point chisel to collapse the piece. Once collapsed the piece should come right out.

I've done many, many bolts like this over the years, including quite a few in the head of various diesel engines that had rusted off, or broken, off when removing the exhaust manifold. The only thing I do different is that when it's clear an easy out isn't going to work I use a die grinder and a carbide burr to eat away at the broken piece until I can collapse it.

Any way you go it sounds like alot of work, but if your careful it will always be a royal PITA but it's not nearly as hard or complicated as it sounds. Eventually you'll get to the point, like me, that you cuss and fuss about it a bit but when the piece comes out and the threads are still in good shape, the satisfaction of a job well done is all that matters....
 
Reconsidering, "lay into it" may have been too strong of a terminology.

Let me rephrase that to, "use common sense to apply the correct amount of force".
 
Yes, the replacement housings are cast aluminum now, so a longer bolt is required. They may well be available from this website. As mentioned here, at least the bolts are where you can get a good straight shot if you have to drill them out.
 
I never thought of heating then quenching before turning, I was always told to try turning 'em when they were red. Always figured that hitting them with water may cause them to crack (or the housing). Seems like I've got a lot of good stuff to try, so hopefully I can get started shortly. I'll let everybody know how it goes.

And yes, the head will be coming off at some point, but first is my first struggle.
 
Before you get the torch out, try tapping on the
head of them with a punch and hammer. It can work
wonders on that type of a situation. Nothing to lose
by trying that. Penetrating oil is highly unlikely
to do any good until they move just a bit then it
will.
 
A lot of ideas here. I have had good success like someone else said. Heat the head red, let it cool a bit. a few taps with a hammer, and a little bb blaster, while the bolt is still hot let it soak a few minutes, and it should come out. I would use some antisieze when putting it back in, so 20 years from now someone, will not thave the trouble you are having. Stan
 
What JMS says - heat it with a PROPANE TORCH. All you want to do is to get it warm enough to melt the wax and allow it to penetrate - may take more than one heating/waxing cycles. Has worked for me on seemingly impossible situations. Also, use a 6 point socket - less potential to damage and bugger up the bolt head. That one doesn"t look real bad.
 
I have never seen the logic in heating the head of the bolt...This would expand the bolt making it even tighter in the casting along with softening it. I have always heated the area around the bolt (in this case the casting) quickly so as to expand the area around the bolt and hopefully not get too much heat transfer to the bolt.
 
That reminds me of something I was working once, and the holes were drilled and tapped all the way through. Might look on the back side, if they go all the way, there'd be a good place for lots of PB.
 
I agree with the wax, I prefer bees wax candle, applied when the heat is subsiding (never catches fire, thataway). Also, if you can apply the wax to the back of the bolt hole, it will "wick" up into the bolt threads. I also like to use a 3/8 "butterfly" impact with a 6 point socket, as close to the bolt, as possible, and start by tightening, a little, then reverse direction. Sometimes they break off to spite all care you take. In that case, post a picture, of what you end up with, and we'll argue over how to get it out!
 
Heating the bolt will "move" both the bolt and the threaded hole in which it is installed. Metal expands when heated-- an immutable Law of Nature. As the bolt is cooling, tap the head of the bolt lightly with small ballpein hammer-- not to break or deform anything. Spray some of your favorite penetrant on it. When cool, put the wrench to it. The bolt shrinks when it cools. I predict it will back right out without problems.
Please tell us how it worked.
 
(quoted from post at 21:20:06 12/16/12) That reminds me of something I was working once, and the holes were drilled and tapped all the way through. Might look on the back side, if they go all the way, there'd be a good place for lots of PB.
Click to expand...

Yes, the bottom of the threads is exposed on the back side. And boy does it look just as rusted and nasty as the top side!
 
Some suggest quenching with water after heating. The only possible thing quenching can accomplish is to make the casting more brittle. Quick cooling of hot cast iron is inviting disaster.
Quenching cast iron
 
55, although it may seem counterintuitive, heating the bolt rather than the surrounding material works. The thing to remember is you're trying to disturb the bond between the threads in the fastener and the threads in the hole. Moving either one will break that bond. It is MUCH easier to get the fastener hot enough to expand than it is to get the surrounding material to expand. Not only is there much less material to heat, the thread corrosion serves as a insulator to concentrate the heat in the fastener.

This method works particularly well with aluminum castings. Try to heat an aluminum casting hot enough to release a steel fastener, and you're likely to blow a hole through the casting. On the other hand, you can apply a lot of heat to the fastener without worrying about the aluminum.

Try it, you'll become a believer.
 
Bus; I was a certified auto mechanic for 25 years (in a former life) and as crazy as your method sounds you are right. I have done it this way for decades and whatever the reason it seems to work.

Jim
 
Aluminum castings are a whole nother story...we were discussing the OP's problem. You are absolutely correct that you have to be very careful with aluminum. Many times with aluminum, the bolt will take the threads out with it.
 
Has anyone else ever noticed that when trying to take rusty
things apart that you twist off far less bolts when your working
in the rain? My theory to this is the rain water has a way of
getting itself into the threads and helps lubricate. About the
only thing thinner than water is air.
 
I've had very good results by heating the bolt and then when it is hot take an ice cube to it and let it shrink fast. When the bolt itself is heated it tries to expand in the hole somewhat but if it cannot it will shrink all the more once it cools rapidly. I've taken bolts out with a pair of pliers after doing this when I would have feared twisting them off otherwise. It's never failed me. Mike
 
Having the bolt head attached is a big advantage over having it twisted off. You can put a wrench on it. Heat the bolt head red hot, let it cool for 30 seconds or so and gently try to turn it out. If it moves, go back and forth with gently pressure. Don't quench it. If it doesn't move wait longer for it to cool. You may need to heat it a couple times. If you don't have a torch set with oxygen, you won't get it hot enough. You could put a little weld on the bolt head too. It as another option to heat the bolt. If you can grind or cut off the back part that protrudes would also help.
 
Heat and penetrating oil: I concur with the other posters.
I used that on some VERY rusted studs of an exhaust manifold. What did the trick in the end - to my surprise - was using an air impact wrench. Set the wrench at a low torque value so as not to twist off the studs. Alternately I switched the air impact wrench form clockwise to counterclockwise. Say 5 "clicks" counterclockwise, 5 "clicks" clockwise, 5 "clicks" counterclockwise, etc., adding more penetrating oil as the nut started to move. It took at least five minutes for each nut, so patience is key.
 
>Many times with aluminum, the bolt will take the threads out with it.

Which is why the only safe way to remove a fastener from a hole threaded in aluminum is to heat the fastener.
 
Lots of good ideas...mine, and it has worked in the past.

Tools;
-Coarse rag that has been soaked in cold water
-If you don't have a cutting torch..use one of those small ones you can buy from a hardware store..

Process;
-Wrap the rag around the thermostat top housing..just up from the gasket..
-Heat the bottom housing..don't worry about that smoking rag..you shouldn't be working the heat up that far anyway..
-Hit the head of the bolts..about like you would use to set a shingle nail before driving it..
-Turn the bolts out..using medium force..

Your fortunate there is a lot of clearance...for if you do twist off the heads, like others have said, it will be a simple matter to drill out the shank and retap the holes..

my 2 centavos..
 
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