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Tire pressure for ballasted vs unballasted tires

A

Aaron Ford

Well-known Member
I loaded my tires and noticed that they take more pressure to get the same result. Prior to ballasting, the tires only needed 8 lbs to start raising the edge of the lug (business card test). Now I need 13 to get similar results. The tires are 14.9x28 and are already set up with 250 per side in cast iron. Tire fill was -5 degree F antifreeze mix.

Normal?

Aaron
 
(quoted from post at 11:46:15 12/31/13) That is why 500lbs of external cast weight and a dry tire pulls more than 500lbs of fluid internal weight.
Click to expand...

b&d
Do you have any written facts to back up your statement or is this something you think??? Are you referring to ALL TRACTORS or just the higher HP tractors???? Also remember not every tractor owner is a nuclear electrician such as you and can afford cast iron weights.
 
The extra pressure is most likely because the tractor is heavier and needs more air to hold it up. 8 pounds is low for a tractor that is going to be used much anyway. The tires would most likely buckle under load if you got traction.
 

Gravity is pulling down harder on the tire and also the fluid is pushing out on the sides causing it to squat more. At the same time the column of fluid is pushing down all across the cross section of the tire, instead of down only through the sidewalls as with wheel weights. This is why fluid loaded tires will always pull so much better than tires weighted with an equal amount of cast iron.
 
I wondered about dry being better then liquid and I
wouldn't have thought so But I searched and found
that Michelin says liquid is not as good cause it
works from the bottom of the tire and makes the tire
have a smaller foot print then cast placed on the
axle ..
 

I firmly believe a Liquid Ballasted tire requires Less pressure to be properly inflated..

The weight is NOT "on" the tractor, but IN the tire and adding Buoyancy to each wheel..helping to lift the rim..like a Boat would Float..

I figure 14 lb for Air only and less than 8 for fully Ballasted. (for my older tractors)..

Let's have YOUR analysis on this B&D..!!

Ron.
 

Besides my last post, there is much less AIR IN the tire to Compress so the tire stays up better under impact at the lower pressure..

Ron.
 
http://www.clemson.edu/cafls/safes/agmec/undergraduate_studies/images/projects/brannon_setzler_michelin_ag_tires.pdf
 
Any time anyone speaks in terms of absolutes on a broad strokes topic, I tend to discount what they say. The results vary from tire brand to tire brand, from tread type to tread type, from traction surface to traction surface (ie soil, etc) and even from tractor model/brand to tractor model/brand. There is no absolute definitive across the board answer. As fuel for the argument, I've got a tractor that gets quite a bit better traction with fluid in the tires (to the tune of 570lbs per wheel) than it does with cast weights (to the tune of 775lbs per wheel) With that, I wouldn't claim fluid weight provides better traction than cast iron IN ALL CASES.
 
(quoted from post at 11:12:38 12/31/13) I wondered about dry being better then liquid and I
wouldn't have thought so But I searched and found
that Michelin says liquid is not as good cause it
works from the bottom of the tire and makes the tire
have a smaller foot print then cast placed on the
axle ..
Click to expand...

I searched all over the Michelin site but couldn't find this. Where did you see it?
 

I think advantage/disadvantage of liquid ballast has a lot to do with the size of the tractor and type of tires(radial or bias-ply). Here's an excerpt from the Michelin Data. BTW the tires Michelin were testing were Metric Radials
mvphoto2184.jpg
 
You should see the John Deere those guys @ "Clempson" cut-away to show how everything works inside. They did an outstanding job. Been a few years since Ive seen it, may have scraped it!
 
I see the absolute "always" in the post by showcrop, above.

I see no such absolute(s) in the post by B & D.

???

Dean
 
Fact, gravity pulls equally on any weight wether iron or fluid. The one variable between iron wheel weights and fluid in tires is the amount of give of the rubber tire. Thus the air pressure needed to keep the tire sidewall from collapse is greater in fluid filled tires do to the lack of volume and the result is less give of the tire and quicker breaking free or spinning of the tire.
Anyone who has ever driven a tractor with steel wheels know that, in spite of having lugs, the wheels spin quite easily when pulling hard in soft ground.
Thus tractors fitted with iron wheel weights will pull better that those filled with fluid all things being equal.
 
(quoted from post at 10:19:10 12/31/13)
(quoted from post at 11:46:15 12/31/13) That is why 500lbs of external cast weight and a dry tire pulls more than 500lbs of fluid internal weight.
Click to expand...

b&d
Do you have any written facts to back up your statement or is this something you think??? Are you referring to ALL TRACTORS or just the higher HP tractors???? Also remember not every tractor owner is a nuclear electrician such as you and can afford cast iron weights.
Click to expand...

Jim, although most sellers of those cast iron weights seem to think the weights are made of gold, they are not. I've seen plenty of them advertised at a price of $75 and even $100 EACH, and I keep seeing those same ads over and over again for months and years. I am in the market for at least 2 SETS, but I refuse to pay more than $35 each. Those weights are worth less than $20 each at the scrap yard.
 
(quoted from post at 18:08:42 12/31/13)
Firestone test track results. I would believe that info over Bubba's opinion.
Click to expand...

Could you divulge this Firestone track test number as I couldn't find it using Google? I'll ask again what HP tractors are you referring to and what type of tires(radial or bias ply)? BTW what does a submarine have to do with weighting of a tractor??
 
physics doesn't care what size or whether bias or radial. sorry if i'm interfering with your sparring time with b@d.
 
(quoted from post at 22:33:14 12/31/13) physics doesn't care what size or whether bias or radial. sorry if i'm interfering with your sparring time with b@d.
Click to expand...

Bobby
You're not interfering with me because that's why this is called a "DISCUSSION FORUM". I don't consider it sparring just because I ask b&d to provide facts for his statement. Do you understand the difference in the traction characteristics(physics) & footprint of a radial vs bias-ply rear tractor tire?? Have you ever witnessed a tractor under 40 HP develop tire power hop? I beg to differ with you "size does make a difference". I'd still like to know the number of & view the Firestone test about tires with different ballasts that b&d referred to.
Jim
 
(quoted from post at 11:46:35 12/31/13)
I think advantage/disadvantage of liquid ballast has a lot to do with the size of the tractor and type of tires(radial or bias-ply). Here's an excerpt from the Michelin Data. BTW the tires Michelin were testing were Metric Radials
mvphoto2184.jpg
Click to expand...

Good job cherry picking the information to support your argument.

From the 3 boxes above the two you posted...(condensed to maintain continuity)

Ballast
• MICHELIN & tractor manufacturers recommend the
use of cast iron weights for ballast.
• Compared to cast iron weights, liquid ballast is NOT
the optimum recommendation.

Why Liquid Ballast is NOT
Optimum
• Footprint size is decreased because added weight acts at the
bottom of tire, not on the axle.
• Traction and flotation are reduced due to a smaller footprint.
• Soil compaction is increased due to a smaller footprint.
• Tires are more vulnerable to impact &
• Ride comfort is decreased due to reduced air cushion.
• Power hop tendency is significantly increased.
• Tendency for damage to power train & steering system is increased.
• Tires are much more difficult to service & repair.

[i:17b731a748][color=blue:17b731a748]There are for more cons to using fluid for ballast than pros.
Especially if you need optimal performance for field work.
Fluid in radials used for tillage reduces the radial advantage to the point that bias ply tires would work just as well for far less money[/color:17b731a748].[/i:17b731a748]
 
(quoted from post at 09:46:25 01/01/14)
Jim Naden
Does this test include all ranges of HP tractors with radial & bias ply tires?
Click to expand...

What does that matter? The rules of physics still apply the same.
 
(quoted from post at 11:53:24 01/01/14)
(quoted from post at 09:46:25 01/01/14)
Jim Naden
Does this test include all ranges of HP tractors with radial & bias ply tires?
Click to expand...

What does that matter? The rules of physics still apply the same.
Click to expand...

Physics are different on radial vs bias ply tires AND low HP vs high HP tractors when it comes to TRACTION. Have you ever seen or heard of a low HP tractor with power hop??????
 
actually, the info he cherry picked has NOTHING to do with supporting his argument.
thanks for posting the facts.
 

Says here increasing air pressure or adding fluid stiffens the tire and reduces traction.

http://www.firestoneag.com/webres/File/Tire-Info/TireInfo-PowerHop.pdf
 
yes, i understand the difference between bias and radial.
jim naden's post off the michelin site plainly spells out this liquid ballast debate, and it doesn't seem to have a disclaimer saying something like "however, on 40 hp and under tractors, throw all this out the window."
 
what?
if a person wants to follow the arguments posted on this forum and who is replying to who, then you need to use the classical view. that modern view is worthless.
 
and the "today's posts" button at the top of the page of classical view keeps the new posts on top. makes things real easy to keep track of.
 
(quoted from post at 11:41:59 01/01/14) what?
if a person wants to follow the arguments posted on this forum and who is replying to who, then you need to use the classical view. that modern view is worthless.
Click to expand...

Quote who you responded to. Reduces confusion and freezes what they said so they cannot change the wording as you saw it.
 
(quoted from post at 13:20:53 01/01/14)
Says here increasing air pressure or adding fluid stiffens the tire and reduces traction.

http://www.firestoneag.com/webres/File/Tire-Info/TireInfo-PowerHop.pdf
Click to expand...

b&d
You need to work on your grammar comprehension. I'll probably be accused f snipping what I choose but SO BE IT. BTW this article addresses power hop not adding ballast(liquid or dry)
mvphoto2198.jpg

mvphoto2199.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 13:01:05 01/01/14)
(quoted from post at 13:20:53 01/01/14)
Says here increasing air pressure or adding fluid stiffens the tire and reduces traction.

http://www.firestoneag.com/webres/File/Tire-Info/TireInfo-PowerHop.pdf
Click to expand...

b&d
You need to work on your grammar comprehension. I'll probably be accused f snipping what I choose but SO BE IT. BTW this article addresses power hop not adding ballast(liquid or dry)
mvphoto2198.jpg

mvphoto2199.jpg
Click to expand...

What '80s era manual did you dig that out of?

Using liquid ballast to eliminate power hop was always the LAST resort to be used.
Front tire construction has advanced for MFD tractors to make power hop control much easier without adding liquid ballast.
 
(quoted from post at 15:41:51 01/01/14)

What '80s era manual did you dig that out of?

Using liquid ballast to eliminate power hop was always the LAST resort to be used.
Front tire construction has advanced for MFD tractors to make power hop control much easier without adding liquid ballast.
Click to expand...

ASK BUICKANDDEERE as he's the one that dug it out of the cobwebs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:
 
with respect, if classical is used, there is no need to quote. in fact, your quoting did not show on your reply to me, and yet i knew what was going on.
i suppose i could use quoting in classical, but i don't see how to do it.
 
yes, that is a fact. it says liquid is better than nothing, to which i agree, and then it says if liquid is your only choice, then michilen tires work as well as any other tire with liquid in them, to which i can't disagree.
it says NOTHING about liquid being better than external ballast.
 
(quoted from post at 16:12:44 01/01/14) i thought we were debating which gives better TRACTION, internal or external ballast?
Click to expand...

I agree but I'm not the original poster of either fact sheet. All I did was take out excerpts. Since you & Mr Naden seem to be the more knowledgeable on ballasting how about one or both of you providing the facts?
 
(quoted from post at 13:41:59 01/01/14) what?
if a person wants to follow the arguments posted on this forum and who is replying to who, then you need to use the classical view. that modern view is worthless.
Click to expand...

Fact is Modern keeps up with replies better than Classic. I guess it all boils down to which view one is accustomed to. BTW you can't quote another poster just by clicking on quote while using Classic.
 
(quoted from post at 16:30:50 01/01/14) my apologies tx jim, i see now that you stated it was about power hop and not ballast.
Click to expand...

No apologies necessary as we were just discussing ballast(dry & liquid) and it got off the beaten trail. I do think liquid ballast is more advantageous with bias ply than radial type tires.
 
lol jim, yes i know, that's what i've been saying all along. i think you misread my post, or maybe i shouldn't have put that question mark at the end.
 
(quoted from post at 16:37:52 01/01/14) lol jim, yes i know, that's what i've been saying all along. i think you misread my post, or maybe i shouldn't have put that question mark at the end.
Click to expand...

Unless I'm mistaken M w J is the person that posted the Michelin article not Mr Naden
 
Any tractor that has more tractor than tire will experience power hop in certain situations. It was a fairly common thing on my 7710 at certain speeds...

Rod
 
that's what i thought. thanks for clearing that up about using quoting on classic.
as for modern keeping up with replies better than classic, i'm not sure what you mean. i've never had a problem knowing who's replying to who when using the "today's posts" button.
i think the powers that be (YT) need to just pick one or the other.
 
I don't entirely agree with that... There are situations where a dry tire with no ballast is better than a liquid ballasted tire. I can recall plowing with a dry tire in furrow that continuously held more traction than the liquid ballasted tire on land. On any other day that might have been different... but that day, that's how it was. More often tho, on a hard surface, something is better than nothing.


Rod
 
(quoted from post at 07:06:38 01/02/14)
b&d
Here's a copy of page 10 you referred to which appears to me to contradictory. It mentions radial but not bias ply tires.
mvphoto2222.jpg
Click to expand...

Jim

Did you stay up late or get up early ?
 
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