Hot water heat

I am looking at a home to buy that has hot water heat and am in over my head on the subject. The home is 100 years old and has a natural gas boiler that looks to be fairly old. The home is about 3200 sqr feet. So I have a couple of questions for anybody with experiance with these systems. 1 How long do the boilers last? What kind of maintance to they need? 2 How long does the pipes and radiators last? 3 What does it cost to replace a boiler if needed? Any other tips on the subject? Thanks for the help!

Don't know a thing, but I lived in a place once had hot water heat in the floor. Man I hated it, your feet got hot and you couldn't get away from it, had to put feet up on a chair or a coffee table ALL THE TIME. I hated it.

"Fairly old" is a bit vague. Our boiler (propane/natural gas) is a little over twenty years old, and the previous boiler (oil) lasted twenty years. So I guess I'd be real suspicious if the boiler is much older than 20. If it's thirty years old, better assume it's on its last legs.

Changing out a boiler is not a huge job, although the boiler for a 3200 square foot house is going to be expensive. Generally speaking, pipes and baseboards last a long time; most of our baseboards are original; the only ones I've replaced were done as part of remodeling projects.

Like a furnace, you need to periodically clean the burners. Like a water heater, you need to periodically drain the boiler to remove sediment. Pumps do wear out although ours is going strong at twenty years. The only repairs I've had to do was replace the Honeywell motors on the zone valves. The motors didn't fail, but the switches inside them (which tell the controller when the valve is open) went bad.

I would think the life of a hydronic system depends a lot on water quality. If you have very hard water, things are going to plug up and wear out. We have a water softener, which I'm sure helps.

If the floor was too hot to stand on, then the system was installed or adjusted improperly. There should be a mixing valve to keep the water temperature low enough to be comfortable.

I added floor heat to our kitchen by simply rerouting the 3/4" pipes so they go back and forth between the floor joists. I didn't add the metal plates usually used to improve heat transfer, since the water comes out of the boiler at 175 degrees F. This setup works great; the floor is slightly warm and the kitchen is at a comfortable temperature, even though there's only a single six foot baseboard in the kitchen. (I also added a "toekick heater" to add a bit more capacity; it's difficult to get enough baseboard into a kitchen because of all the cabinets.)

We live in a 110 year old house with an electric boiler (no nat gas available and no propane setup in place) augmented by wood heat. The one thing I've learned about hot water heat and passive baseboards is that it is a very slow responding system. We really can't turn the heat down at night because it would take three or four hours before the house was back up to temperature unless the wood stove is helping out. Some nice aspects of it are the quite operation (faint hum from the circulating pump and a few pops and pings as pipes heat and cool) and the lack of drafts from moving air. On the flip side, this lack of moving air is also what causes the slowness of response so it's good and bad.

I'd agree with the 20 year estimate - give or take. Comes down to how lucky you are. I remember the boiler coming out of my parents house - that thing had to have been at least 50 years old, but I don't think they build them like that any more.

Most people have a service contract - and the contact info is very likely attached to the boiler somewhere. If I were buying a place and the boiler was a concern - I'd probably find that info and call them. They'll know more about it than anybody.

cast iron radiators themselves, the only time I've seen them fail is from power outages when the system freezes... THAT gets ugly.

i have hot water baseboard heat in my house, also installed a forced air furnace with central a/c. the boiler is nice. even heat, no temp swings like with forced air. i have the furnace cleaned and checked yearly, no big deal. did put a new boiler in about 12 years ago, maybe 2g installed.

I would give my eye teeth for hot water heat. Radiant floor heat would be that much better. Anyone who's ever had hot water and then has to go to hot air...well, the dust and dirt alone are enough to drive you nuts.

I look forward tot he day I can ditch this hot air system and put in an outdoor wood boiler and base board hot water, if not radiant floor heat.

Feet too hot in the winter? Come to my house, you won't have that problem...

You want to find out about hot water or radiant heating systems the go to place is heatinghelp.com Dan Holohan's website devoted to all such things including steam heat.

We have hot water heat (some radiators in certain zones, some baseboard in others and radiant heat in the floor of my shop and one zone of the house).

Always liked hot water over hot air. It is a steady warm heat and the radiators/ baseboard keep radiating long after the furnace has stopped running. With any hot air system it always seemed the minute the furnace quit, it started getting cold again. JMHO

The radiant heat in the floor is good once it gets cold and stays cold. Not so nice in the spring and fall when the temps outside fluctuate allot. The temp drops at night so the in floor heat kicks on. Then about mid morning the temps outside rises and the furnace shuts down but, the floor continues to radiate heat for many hours and you end up opening windows to be comfortable.

As to furnace age. It all depends on the shape of the furnace and the conditions it is setting in. Ie: damp basement with lots of moisture, could mean its rusty and on it's last legs. Good dry conditions, could last a very long time.
Hope this helps

If you are looking to buy the house why not get a inspection by somebody that specializes in boiler systems and can tell you how old and over all condition of system? Some times the little extra cost up front can save you money in the long run.

The house I live in has hot water heat.

The original system and oil boiler was installed in 1961 when I was a child. The boiler was replaced with a propane boiler in 1987. The replacement boiler was installed by Bubba and was always troublesome. I replaced it with a new boiler in 2004 or 2005. The rest of the system is original. No problems since.

Love the system. It is clean, quiet and efficient.

Things to consider:

Baseboard registers need to be exposed for efficient operation, and this limits how rooms are arranged and used.

A system failure or prolonged power outage in extremely cold weather could result in freezing of the pipes and registers, which would be catastrophic. I maintain my own system (Most heating/AC folks are not competent to work on hot water systems and will not do so.). For this reason, I do not leave the house for extended periods of time, e.g., vacations, in the winter. Filling the system with glycerine rather than water would eliminate such concern but I have not done so.

Dean

Ditto on D Beatty's suggestion. Ideally, try to have it inspected by the local shop that you will most likely go to when you need service on the system.

Most people seem to either love or hate hot water heat.

I have seen many 100 year old homes with original radiators and piping. Most of the original boilers were gravity flow, so no pump. It has probably been replaced with a pump and newer boiler.

I would plan to replace the boiler if anything less than 90% efficient.

I still have my original oil fired boiler that is 44 years old--140,000 btu 4 zone. Tired of fuel oil prices so plan on replacing it with natural gas boiler---less maintenance also.
Have baseboard slantfin thru out the house.

(quoted from post at 04:54:43 07/20/14) I would give my eye teeth for hot water heat. Radiant floor heat would be that much better. Anyone who's ever had hot water and then has to go to hot air...well, the dust and dirt alone are enough to drive you nuts.

I look forward tot he day I can ditch this hot air system and put in an outdoor wood boiler and base board hot water, if not radiant floor heat.

Feet too hot in the winter? Come to my house, you won't have that problem...

Click to expand...

Bret, interested in a project? This boiler was a backup to a solar system I recycled, rarely used. Way too big for my needs. Wood with fuel oil backup. Obviously needs a shed. I can load, but you don't want it in a pickup.

Hot water or Steam??If it has radiators it could very well be steam,then it needs checked closer for condition.Todays high efficiency boilers don't work too well on steam because of the high temps.needed.

We built our home in 1973 and was far enough from the city so we started with an oil fired boiler. Filled our 500 gallon tank the first time for .18 cents a gallon. That was the year that Big Oil started their "shortage" and everything has gone up since. Gas company ran natural gas in the mid 80's and switched furnaces. Much cheaper!! In 2005 we switched furnaces to a wall mounted Trinity boiler system. Started with a system that took up most of the utility room to a unit mounted on the wall. House is all baseboard heat both on the main floor and the basement. Two zones. Have never had an issue with any piping.
The only thing I would do differently today would be infloor heating in the basement and forced air upstairs cause the air conditioning with is a pain-in-the-butt. We turn the heat down at night and it only takes 15-20 minutes to warm up in the morning (unless its -30 outside).

Thanks for all the input, I figure the boiler to be over 30 years old, fairly large and does not look like anything modern that I have look at on line. I think my biggest challange will be to find someone that knows how to service and work on them to give an honest opinion on what it needs. The house does also have a forced air furnace with the central airconditioning unit that is maybe 5 years old. I am hoping that this unit is big enough to use as a backup heating unit in case of boiler failure. I will have a home inspection done prior to sale but I wanted to know what I am "in for" on the boiler part.

Doesn't the 5 year old forced air furnace with AC kind of through up a red flag? If the old boiler is in good shape there would be no need for forced air furnace. I would lay odds that the boiler hasn't been used the last 5 years.

The house I grew up in had a boiler that was new about 1910 in a different house then moved to this house and converted from coal to oil in 1963.It failed in the early 2000 "s.The insulation in the older boilers will probably be asbestos which could be a problem when replacement time comes around.That old cast boiler we had had a sort of refractory cement all over the exterior of the boiler and no one knew what to do with it.It is still in the basement although moved to a corner.Something that no one has mentioned is that the minerals from your water will settle out in the boiler.The railroads and factories spent a lot of money and bother softening their boiler water when the world was powered by steam.

Lots of houses like this. Had water heat originally,(A/C not heard of or was a 'luxury'), to add A/C, one way is furnace, a/c & ductwork.

Find a licensed mech contractor you trust to look at it, self certified (proclaimed) run of the mill house inspectors-the ones that give 'everything' a once over usually know just enough to give trouble. Most reports I've read even have a disclaimer--'consult a qualified/licensed person'.

Adding central air to a house with hydronic heat can be very expensive due to the ductwork, so it's not surprising they put in heat as well. The incremental cost of a furnace would not be much over the central air.

Is that a gas furnace, or electric? If it's gas, you probably don't need to worry too much about replacing the boiler. But if the forced-air heat is electric, better figure on replacing the boiler.

(quoted from post at 11:00:44 07/20/14)

(quoted from post at 04:54:43 07/20/14) I would give my eye teeth for hot water heat. Radiant floor heat would be that much better. Anyone who's ever had hot water and then has to go to hot air...well, the dust and dirt alone are enough to drive you nuts.

I look forward tot he day I can ditch this hot air system and put in an outdoor wood boiler and base board hot water, if not radiant floor heat.

Feet too hot in the winter? Come to my house, you won't have that problem...

Click to expand...

Bret, interested in a project? This boiler was a backup to a solar system I recycled, rarely used. Way too big for my needs. Wood with fuel oil backup. Obviously needs a shed. I can load, but you don't want it in a pickup.

Click to expand...

Bet that would supply enough heat Tom! The logistics involved in moving it sound a little daunting....

Bret, came here on an F350 flatbed. Don't think it weighs much more than 2 tons. After I got it here I had a boiler guy out, who asked how much heat I needed.

I figured it would be great to load weekly. That won't work, the fire would go out. This was backup to 416 sq ft of solar panels. Pretty sure the oil burner was never used.

5/16" steel, a lot of it.

We bought our place (1,950 sq. ft.) in 2002 and it had the original system that was installed in 1947. Had to replace the boiler (it's oil fired) and a circulation pump. Otherwise using the same pipes and radiators and oil tanks. It was about $3,200 then to install it, not counting the small cost to fix the basement steps that broke when they carried down them. Due to the price of heating oil being almost $4 a gallon we put in a heat pump for the milder times of year, but sure do like the oil heated water when it's cold out!

Our church has hot water heat, and I think when we needed to replace the boiler because the old cast iron one cracked and started leaking badly, it cost almost $30K. The church was built in 1958 and the fairly large boiler was originally oil fired, but had been converted to natural gas in the 70"s or early 80"s.

I think that original boiler was pretty oversized, as when the church was built, fairly little insulation had been used. The church could be warmed up fairly quickly, even when it was very cold outside. Over the years, various improvements were made to the church, including adding much insulation, so it was less expensive to keep it heated. The old boiler worked well, and it was repaired a number of times, but when it cracked the last time, we were told that it was too corroded and thin to be repaired again.

The replacement boiler was designed for natural gas and has mostly stainless steel construction. It is supposed to be a much higher percentage of efficiency, as it is supposed to be a condensing type and required a condensate drain line. The new boiler occupies about a third of the volume the old one did. It was somewhat of a pain to remove the old unit, but we got it done by breaking up the cast iron with sledge hammers. Most of the old piping was reused, but we added several new pumps for new zones for a little more efficiency. None of the radiators were changed a bit.

The year following the replacement, we closely monitored the costs of heating the church. We were a little disappointed when we only ended up saving a couple of hundred dollars worth of gas, which was WAY less than we had been told we would save. But maybe the weather was colder, and maybe the old boiler was working a lot more efficiently than they had estimated. At least we are pretty sure the new boiler will work for a long time, hopefully without the tinkering that the old one required the last 20 years of its service life.

Before I bought a house with a boiler of unknown condition, I would check to see how much it might cost to replace it if it failed. The cost might be shocking! I also would be careful about examining the piping, as iron pipe has a limited lifetime. It might be a nightmare to have to tear out all the old system and replace it with new and also be very expensive.

On the other hand, a hot water heating system gives wonderful comfortable heat. I would guess that an old hot water heating system would detract from the sales price of a house as compared with a hot air system where the components can be replaced for lots less money if or when they fail. When you are negotiating the price, you might keep that in mind. Good luck!