Just heard about a farmer that took over the family farm and didn't know to put anything on the fields for 16years the crops keeped getting worse and worse till almost nothing last year he finally had the local again serves out he was told it will take 4years to get the land back up to par
- Thread starter brandon j
- Start date
Not doubting you but if you take something off it will need to be replaced. Your pastures are getting manure for the fertilizer but I am not sure how you are not running deficient on your P and K on your hay fields. Hay takes a lot of Phosphorus out of the soil to create the plant. Maybe you had an abundance of P when you took it over? A blind man can tell the difference at my place where the fertilizer from the neighbor's field has run off into mine and where the previous owner has depleted the nutrients.
ince I sold the beef cows and started with Bison the pastures have improved every year. I can graze nearly twice as many bison on the same area as i did beef cows. one year i had 400 head bison on it where 150 cows would've cleaned the place out
I take only one cut alfalfa/grass mix per year from the hay fields and leave the regrowth to replenish the soil.
I reseeded it once about 9 years ago after a severe drought.
Fertilizer kills the soil over time,..it is not natural.
People around me are starting to find out that repeated application of anhydrous makes the soil as hard as concrete.
Kickinbull
Member
another proved, anhydrous eats copper.
Kickinbull
Member
Consider this, what about large ranches out west? Do they fertilize their pastures?
Kickinbull
Member
I think in our area there is a much worse problem with operators overstocking and continous grazing. Right now, here, in the spring, I've drove to town to see the pastures as short as golf course greens on the hole.
I have a swamp of 8 acres, stays too wet too late to crop, but dries off to make grass hay. Because it is basically a peat bog it is naturally high
in built up nutrients, and in heavy rains some bit of nutrients filter into it.
So I would have a spot like you say, can make hay for decades and it doesn't wear out.
But that is kind of a special case.
On more typical soils and conditions, if you haul away grain or meat or hay from the land, you are removing protien and p and K that wears
down the soil.
The protien (N) can be manufatured by a legume crop, but the P and K and micro nutrients are being exported away. No amount of resting the
soil or only harvesting 1/2 crops will bring those nutrients back.
You are losing, long term.
In very rare special cases one starts with soils rich enough that the effects are not seen in several decades, but the net effect is still the soil is
being mined of nutrients as long as you are removing some grain, hay, or meat through grazing.
Simple mathamatics, you can't avoid that basic concept.
I'm glad you live in a spot where this removal works for you, but don't think that is a normal thing for everyone everywhere. You are blessed with
a special natural resource.
I am troubled with your leaving half of your crop spoil, only harvesting one hay crop. That seems counter productive, and wasteful of land and
resources. A person should try to do a good job and be more productive, make something of the resources they are given.
That might surprise you, and you are saying but but but.....
You feel you are taking care of your land by cutting production, holding back on it. I get what you are doing.....
But. You are holding your land back, other people have to raise stuff somewhere else to make up for your lack of production. Somembody else
needs to break open more land, or fertilize theirs heavier, to make up for what you aren't producing. In the big picture, your holding back might
be harder on the planet that if you just tried harder on the ground you are farming.
Just a different look at the how's and whys?
Paul
in built up nutrients, and in heavy rains some bit of nutrients filter into it.
So I would have a spot like you say, can make hay for decades and it doesn't wear out.
But that is kind of a special case.
On more typical soils and conditions, if you haul away grain or meat or hay from the land, you are removing protien and p and K that wears
down the soil.
The protien (N) can be manufatured by a legume crop, but the P and K and micro nutrients are being exported away. No amount of resting the
soil or only harvesting 1/2 crops will bring those nutrients back.
You are losing, long term.
In very rare special cases one starts with soils rich enough that the effects are not seen in several decades, but the net effect is still the soil is
being mined of nutrients as long as you are removing some grain, hay, or meat through grazing.
Simple mathamatics, you can't avoid that basic concept.
I'm glad you live in a spot where this removal works for you, but don't think that is a normal thing for everyone everywhere. You are blessed with
a special natural resource.
I am troubled with your leaving half of your crop spoil, only harvesting one hay crop. That seems counter productive, and wasteful of land and
resources. A person should try to do a good job and be more productive, make something of the resources they are given.
That might surprise you, and you are saying but but but.....
You feel you are taking care of your land by cutting production, holding back on it. I get what you are doing.....
But. You are holding your land back, other people have to raise stuff somewhere else to make up for your lack of production. Somembody else
needs to break open more land, or fertilize theirs heavier, to make up for what you aren't producing. In the big picture, your holding back might
be harder on the planet that if you just tried harder on the ground you are farming.
Just a different look at the how's and whys?
Paul
Most native plants respond very little, if at all to fertilizer, or irrigation for that matter. Here in Nebraska, the saying has always been take half and leave half.
We are in sand, if you graze it too hard at the wrong time of year, you will have sand dunes in no time. I do believe in mob grazing, where you absolutely take everything off, but then let it sit until you get good growth again. I rotate grazing, and try to totally clean off one pasture each year. I don't use any form of mechanical clipping, other then maybe on some Eastern Red Cedars, but even them, if I put enough grazing pressure on, at the right time of year, the cows will control them.
We are in sand, if you graze it too hard at the wrong time of year, you will have sand dunes in no time. I do believe in mob grazing, where you absolutely take everything off, but then let it sit until you get good growth again. I rotate grazing, and try to totally clean off one pasture each year. I don't use any form of mechanical clipping, other then maybe on some Eastern Red Cedars, but even them, if I put enough grazing pressure on, at the right time of year, the cows will control them.
formenwhogrow
Member
Or a complete moron.
formenwhogrow
Member
The good ones address their nutrient needs, just as good farmers do. The good ranchers have built lots of fence and implemented grazing plans. They rotate their animals and are careful not to overstock pastures.
don't know about you bud but i farm because i wanted to and to make a living for me and my family with the least amount of work and costs.(work smarter,...not harder) i don't feel i should have to work my butt off to feed the ever increasing world population(it' a uphill battle anyway and not my responsibility).(quoted from post at 04:44:46 05/05/15) I have a swamp of 8 acres, stays too wet too late to crop, but dries off to make grass hay. Because it is basically a peat bog it is naturally high
in built up nutrients, and in heavy rains some bit of nutrients filter into it.
So I would have a spot like you say, can make hay for decades and it doesn't wear out.
But that is kind of a special case.
On more typical soils and conditions, if you haul away grain or meat or hay from the land, you are removing protien and p and K that wears
down the soil.
The protien (N) can be manufatured by a legume crop, but the P and K and micro nutrients are being exported away. No amount of resting the
soil or only harvesting 1/2 crops will bring those nutrients back.
You are losing, long term.
In very rare special cases one starts with soils rich enough that the effects are not seen in several decades, but the net effect is still the soil is
being mined of nutrients as long as you are removing some grain, hay, or meat through grazing.
Simple mathamatics, you can't avoid that basic concept.
I'm glad you live in a spot where this removal works for you, but don't think that is a normal thing for everyone everywhere. You are blessed with
a special natural resource.
[b:7cbc66b593]I am troubled with your leaving half of your crop spoil, only harvesting one hay crop. That seems counter productive, and wasteful of land and
resources. A person should try to do a good job and be more productive, make something of the resources they are given.[/b:7cbc66b593]
That might surprise you, and you are saying but but but.....
You feel you are taking care of your land by cutting production, holding back on it. I get what you are doing.....
[b:7cbc66b593]But. You are holding your land back, other people have to raise stuff somewhere else to make up for your lack of production. Somembody else
needs to break open more land, or fertilize theirs heavier, to make up for what you aren't producing. In the big picture, your holding back might
be harder on the planet that if you just tried harder on the[/b:7cbc66b593] [b:7cbc66b593]ground you are farming.[/b:7cbc66b593]
Just a different look at the how's and whys?
Paul
I use my land as nature intended to and not as society thinks i should use it which is basically just raping the soil in the long run.
Some of these fertilizers are made at great cost from oil and Natural gas so you can also say we are depleting those natural resources til there are none left.
If I am as you claim I am depleting my land in the long run by taking off meat and hay and return noting then i wonder how the prairies could sustain these millions of buffalo and elk and deer that roamed around for tens of thousands of years without dying off from starvation,..and the dinosaur's before that.
Why in the world would i take two cuts of hay if i need only one, sure i can sell that second cut and then turn around and spend the cash on fertilizer,..does that make sense to you?
I may look good for the bottom line of the fertilizer company but it does nothing for me but more work and headaches.
I work to live,...not live to work.
Paul[/quote]
I understand completely where you are coming from. One thing about the bison on the prairie is that the bison and Indians that ate the bison crapped and died on the prairie so their nutrients became part of the circle again.
Have you taken any soil samples? I would be curious to see how much nutrients you have in you ground.
As far as leaving a cutting: your ground, your choice. Leaving a cutting could help the soil. The litter left will support the microbes. The old way of raising cattle on pasture was that you were a grass farmer just harvesting with cattle. Now you need to think of being the microbe farmer that uses the grass to get their nutrients to the cattle.
While I agree that a natural compost and natural based fertilizers would be better for the soil, we are feeding over 6 billion and soon to be 7 billion mouths. If we go back to farming like we did in the 1950's, the population will need to go back to the 1950's level.
I understand completely where you are coming from. One thing about the bison on the prairie is that the bison and Indians that ate the bison crapped and died on the prairie so their nutrients became part of the circle again.
Have you taken any soil samples? I would be curious to see how much nutrients you have in you ground.
As far as leaving a cutting: your ground, your choice. Leaving a cutting could help the soil. The litter left will support the microbes. The old way of raising cattle on pasture was that you were a grass farmer just harvesting with cattle. Now you need to think of being the microbe farmer that uses the grass to get their nutrients to the cattle.
While I agree that a natural compost and natural based fertilizers would be better for the soil, we are feeding over 6 billion and soon to be 7 billion mouths. If we go back to farming like we did in the 1950's, the population will need to go back to the 1950's level.
don't know about you bud but i farm because i wanted to and to make a living for me and my family with the least amount of work and costs.(work smarter,...not harder) i don't feel i should have to work my butt off to feed the ever increasing world population(it' a uphill battle anyway and not my responsibility).
I use my land as nature intended to and not as society thinks i should use it which is basically just raping the soil in the long run.
Some of these fertilizers are made at great cost from oil and Natural gas so you can also say we are depleting those natural resources til there are none left.
If I am as you claim I am depleting my land in the long run by taking off meat and hay and return noting then i wonder how the prairies could sustain these millions of buffalo and elk and deer that roamed around for tens of thousands of years without dying off from starvation,..and the dinosaur's before that.
Why in the world would i take two cuts of hay if i need only one, sure i can sell that second cut and then turn around and spend the cash on fertilizer,..does that make sense to you?
I may look good for the bottom line of the fertilizer company but it does nothing for me but more work and headaches.
I work to live,...not live to work.
[/quote]One thing about the bison on the prairie is that the bison and Indians that ate the bison crapped and died on the prairie so their nutrients became part of the circle again. [/b:e4dd43b461][b:e4dd43b461]Have you taken any soil samples?[/b:e4dd43b461] I would be curious to see how much nutrients you have in you ground.
As far as leaving a cutting: your ground, your choice. Leaving a cutting could help the soil. The litter left will support the microbes. The old way of raising cattle on pasture was that you were a grass farmer just harvesting with cattle. Now you need to think of being the microbe farmer that uses the grass to get their nutrients to the cattle.
While I agree that a natural compost and natural based fertilizers would be better for the soil, [b:e4dd43b461]we are feeding over 6 billion and soon to be 7 billion mouths[/b:e4dd43b461]. If we go back to farming like we did in the 1950's, [b:e4dd43b461]the population will need to go back to the 1950's level[/b:e4dd43b461].[/quote]
That might be so but animals die and are more likely to eaten by other animals versus decomposition on a rather small spot versus the hundreds of acres they supposedly depleted of nutrients.
Yes, somehow every sample i have ever taken and had analyzed were always short of nutrients, either in my native country and later in 4 different places across Canada where i have lived.
In other words, there is apparently few places in the world that are sufficient in nutrients and does produce dick all without man made fertilizer.
Who would've thought that Mother nature could've been so wrong and knew nothing about the conditions how to grow things right. :roll: ( thank the Lord that man came on the scene to the rescue or the world might've resembled Mars by know :lol
Good for you,..keep at it,..i doubt if it will earn you a medal or an applause though.
Fine by me, IMO..there's way to many as is right now.
I'm glad we live in a society where we can view things differently and make our lives as we see fit.
No, nothing you said really makes sense to me, but that is ok it doesn't need to, and you can farm your farm as you see fit I don't have
problems with that.
Just in a friendly conversation, seems all backwards to me is all, you use up twice as much stuff to produce what you do, I don't get why
someone would choose to do that.
Paul
No, nothing you said really makes sense to me, but that is ok it doesn't need to, and you can farm your farm as you see fit I don't have
problems with that.
Just in a friendly conversation, seems all backwards to me is all, you use up twice as much stuff to produce what you do, I don't get why
someone would choose to do that.
Paul
Pair-a-dice farm
Well-known Member
I'm not sure how cattle and bison differ in what they leave behind. I built up some of my ground by simply grazing and feeding hay on fields that had previously been cropped for years. Cattle add organics back to the soil that can't be artificially duplicated. My land only has a few inches of top soil. However the fields where I cut hay have to be fertilized or they don't produce enough to pay for the fuel to cut it. Due to winter time flooding I, usually, can't feed on my hay fields. If you take something off of a field and carry it somewhere else, eventually you or the next person will have to replace it in order for the field to produce.
Some land should've been left in the natural state and never been broken.
I have some real sandy spots in some pastures that have never produced anything with or without fertilizer.
I've just let it revert back to nature,..wildlife needs a place to hide too.
I have around 400 acres of virgin bush on my place as well, some of it is really productive soil.
Breaking it today would cost more than i will ever get back in my life time. It bloody well can stay bush for all i care, good place for the deer the moose the bears the birds and the bees
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