Electrical Service to Pole Barn

IAtractorKid · Jun 22, 2015

Hey guys! As I mentioned a few weeks ago, I'm getting ready to have a pole barn built within the next couple months. 40x60 with 12' sidewalls. 30x40 will be heated and insulated, rest will be cold storage. Trying to get some quotes from electricians and they have some mixed ideas. I currently have 200 amp service to the house. Two of them want to run 100 amp service down to the shop (300') straight from that meter. The third guy wants to run a second service off the transformer about 30' away from my house and install a second meter at the shop. This would give me 200 amp service at the shop and an additional $10/month charge for the second meter; IF the power company will even allow that.

I guess my question is how much do I need???

Right now we are looking at 15 interior outlets, 1 exterior outlet, 4 pendant lights in cold storage, 7 T8 fluorescents in shop side, couple exterior overhead lights and 3 220 outlets for now. Heater will be radiant tube, couple overhead door openers, mig welder, 60gal compressor. Eventually a 220 electric/hydraulic shop press and maybe a 2-post car lift. Plus all your usual shop stuff.

Is 100 amp service going to be enough? Two are telling me yes, one is saying I need 200 if I can get it.

Thanks for any input from those with more experience than I!

CKain(MI) · Jun 22, 2015

Myself, I would try hard to make it work by connecting to existing service and same meter. You most likely get a 'residential rate' on electric kw use. A separate meter for the barn will not be that rate ! It will be higher!!

Paul from MI · Jun 22, 2015

It sounds like you are going to have a fairly significant load in the barn. Bear in mind that ratings of services to residences are based on not all loads being on at one time. In other words, a 200 amp service cannot actually carry 200 amps on a continuous basis. What kind of use conditions are you anticipating, will the compressor run at the same time you are welding, with all the lights on? Plus the potential need for expansion in the future. The other factor to consider is the 300' run to the barn. You will have to oversize the feeder to avoid a big voltage drop over that distance. I would look seriously into a separate service, but check on minimum charges and rates with the power company. Just some thoughts.

Calvin Innes · Jun 22, 2015

good evening,
You have expressed your present intentions but what of a few yeas down the road? ... a refrigerator, an arc welder, a larger air compressor, and probably outlets on the unheated side and how about outlets for plugging in the tractor in the winter months and who knows what else...
My recommendation is don't cheap out, put in a 200 amp panel and a separate meter. I have done this for my Morton Building 15 years ago and have never been disappointed. It runs 28 to 48 bucks a month depending on electrical usage here in north central Maine. If you have any questions, call the electrical company directly and they would be glad to discuss it with you. A 300 foot run from the house will have some current drop because of the distance but running a larger wire size would offset that. It will be a fun and satisfying project! best of luck!
Cal

jm. · Jun 22, 2015

I am the other way around, never blink an eye. Nothing like having a new building without enough electricity. Power company just relented here and now let us have two meters like you are thinking about, both being or low rate or at least the garage not being on commercial rate. That is if both are at the same location.

Spudm · Jun 22, 2015

I have a 200 amp service panel in the house that feeds the pole barn (about 200' away). Pole barn is about the same size, and runs the usual shop stuff just fine.

D beatty · Jun 22, 2015

Sounds like you should get a hold of a electrical contractor and the electric company and figure out what you need and what is required by electric company.

JMS/.MN · Jun 22, 2015

I don"t get it- here the REA runs wires to the pole, down to the meter, up the pole and to various buildings, each with their own service entrance, 100, 200 amp, etc. House is 200, dairy barn is 200, shop 100, corn drier 100, calf barn 100. All radiate from the yard pole.

Texasmark1 · Jun 22, 2015

My shop was 150' from the nearest pole with a transformer which also fed the house. The power company ran a 240 line from the same outlets on the transformer that fed the house along 2 intermediate poles they installed to a new meter at the shop with a full panel and earth ground. I think I paid them $150 for the work and the meters went up recently to $15 with the KWhr at 11c + 1c PCRecovery. I'm serviced by a coop and they buy all their power.

On the how much, get or download a copy of the National Electrical Code and they will take you through it among other things. I did my shop 30x50 x12 + 50 x 15 roof extension covered area, welder service, power tools, work bench power, refrigerator, ac/heater outlet, lights and all for right at $1k. Got all the parts at the orange big box store. Course I built it in Jan '05 so things have probably increased in value and I didn't use Cadillac fixtures and any fancy stuff. Was a shop for working and used parts suited for the job.

JD Seller · Jun 22, 2015

You will be at the limit of the 100 amps with what your doing now. I had that issue in my first shop. IF many things where running in the shop you could tell the voltage drop when you would try to weld. Especially 7018 rods vertically. I had to shut off everything I could to make the welder work correctly.

So if you think you ever will add more stuff drawing larger electric loads I would put in the second meter with a 200 amp service. As for the additional charge. A shop is not going to be "free" you will use more electric than you think if you weld much. If you file a schedule F or a business return having a second meter for the shop makes it much easier to deduct the electric cost for the shop. Even if not your shop should run you $30-50 each month. That is less than $2 a day. Not a BIG expense compared to may other things you get or use.

Cory Schmidt · Jun 22, 2015

I would go for the 200 right away. 100 might cover it but you wouldn't have much room to expand.
Could you get a new meter closer to transformer then run a new line to the house and one to the new building behind that single meter?

That's how our power is hooked up here. When the shop was put up, we got ahold of the power co. and had them put in a new transformer on the other side of the yard. They put a meter in near that transformer that feeds a main panel for the buildings. Then got rid of other feed. There's a feed (from this main panel(done by private co) to the greenhouse, shop and house. The house ties to the original rewired main switch panel out to the other buildings(barn and shed(that feed the other shed(s)). *** All this if I recall/ figured right how it was wired 15+ years ago.***

Steve@Advance · Jun 22, 2015

To determine the needed amps you'll need to add up the amp draw of the appliances that will be in use at the same time.

Start with the lighting, heating, and air compressor. Those are the main amp draw items. The others are intermittent, not likely to all be in use at the same time, so add about 35 amps or so to cover them. Anything else that might be added later, just use the same guide lines, if it's a continuous draw, add the full value, if it's intermittent the 35 amps added earlier will cover it. Then add about 20% just to be safe.

Next do the same with the existing house load. Either add the load, or turn on the lights, range, heat or AC, etc., check the amps with an amprobe, add the 20%.

Then add the 2 results together. If the number is around 180 or more, you'll need to go with another service, IF the electric company will let you. They may require you to up your existing service, depends on their policy.

Jim in rush co · Jun 22, 2015

I have a 400 amp double barrel lug meter base with 200 to house and 200 to barn and only one bill. I would talk to electric co.

fixerupper · Jun 22, 2015

You need to pull your power from somewhere separate from the house. Intermittent heavy draws from the shop messes with whatever is computerized in the house. When the 60 gallon compressor that should pull 27-30 amps if you have a true 5hp motor kicks in there is a small dip in voltage. The wire welder is another bad one. All this small repeated voltage variation takes it's toll. The computer router will be the first to go. We finally got our farm's power divided up properly last summer plus another 100 amps coming in to the farm and that pretty much ended our computer glitches in the house.

504 · Jun 22, 2015

My minimum is $25.00 per meter per month.I ran 200 amp from the meter to the shed and the house, the REC said if I did not have enough amps they would be out to replace the transformer. I figured I will pay for the extra wire I had to run in 24 months, and only I meter charge. Talk to the power company and start your search from there.(yes you want 200 amp service)

redtom · Jun 22, 2015

An unrelated question regarding building size? Why not 40 x 64? I was headed the same way as you when the lumber yard pointed something out. In my area poles are set on 8' centers. 9 poles to make 64 ft. If you go 60' you need ...9 poles, 8 on 8' center and one more on 4' center. So same number of pole can get you 4 more ft. Or as I think of it now, maybe you're stick building. Just a thought.

Dean · Jun 22, 2015

Doing the same thing as we speak.

Currently have 200A service at house with 20 KW back up generator about 75' from where new pole barn is being built next month.

Also have existing pole barn built 5 years ago with separate 200A service that always comes in at about $10.50/month. Existing pole barn is about 125'
from where service will enter new building.

Will put 200A service in new building.

Run from existing building is longer, thus more expensive but powering from residence will be backed up by generator.

To install service from residence must bore beneath paved driveway and install 2" conduit.

Excavator can bore and pull conduit but have not yet gotten estimate for that.

Will likely know tomorrow.

Dean

MarkB_MI · Jun 23, 2015

The reason your electricians are in agreement is they're both right. 100 amp service is the minimum, and it will be adequate to handle the loads you describe. But for a shop of that size, most folks will opt for 200 amp service. 100 amp service will be cheaper in the short and long term, but 200 amp service will give you much more flexibility in the future.

The thing about a big building is it can hold a lot of stuff, and some of that stuff might need a lot of juice. Let's say you bring home a big welder from an auction, only to find that while it can run on single phase, it draws 100 amps. Your 100 amp service isn't going to work, if you want to weld with the lights on.

My shop has 100 amp service tapped off my 150 amp house service. It works great, and my electrical loads are similar to yours. But my shop is only 1200 sq ft., you'll be putting a lot more stuff in yours.

MarkB_MI · Jun 23, 2015

>Intermittent heavy draws from the shop messes with whatever is computerized in the house.

If the electrical service to your house is adequate, there's no reason you should see voltage fluctuations in the house caused by shop loads. Now if you only have 60 amp service to your house and try to tap it to power your shop, sure you'll have problems. But you shouldn't try to tap 100 amp service from 60 amp service. Tapping 100 amp shop service from 200 amp house service is a totally different situation.

cannonball · Jun 23, 2015

For those that want to run 2 services on one meter...
&storeNumber=0129&kpid=3080791&kpid=3080791&cm_mmc=SCE_PLA-_-RoughPlumbingElectrical-_-Switchgear-_-3080791%3AMilbank&CAWELAID=&CAWELAID=1368055994]Untitled URL Link

charlespretzer · Jun 23, 2015

I have a 100 amp to my shop. Working pretty much by myself, I have one machine running at a time unless the compressor kicks in. Never had a problem. Not sure why the size of your shop would make a difference
unless your heating with electricity.

John T · Jun 23, 2015

As usual lots of opinions to electrical questions here. Its my opinion (retired AC Distribution Design Engineer) while a 100 amp service could get you by, Id go ahead and get 200 amps now which could save you money in the long run if you ever needed to upgrade. Sure it may cost a bit more now, but you're set and no more future upgrade charges.

John T

dr sportster · Jun 23, 2015

Power company inspector told me the average home in my area draws 35 amps.All electrical work should plan for future expansion as stated in the begeinning of the code ,true but the reason everyone that changes to a 200 from a 100 is more because they think they need it and it is a sellling point if they ever sell the home. If the average is 35 A guy with a welder and machine shop would not be that much more. Of coarse the electrician would add up your loads and do some calculations but he would have to know math.{ the hard math like addition].

dr sportster · Jun 23, 2015

So do you NEED it probably not . But do you want it because your friends and neibors all have it Absolutly . 200 amps Yeah. That's what I realy meant.

buickanddeere · Jun 23, 2015

You want this panel installed just below the existing electrical power meter. This way power is sent to both the house and shed through the one meter. There is also a safe and handy connection for a generator instead of jacklegging back through a welder plug.

http://www.reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?TWB2012DR

Texasmark1 · Jun 23, 2015

Mine runs from $29 to $36 year round, small farm, retired, just me keeping things fixed plus a little creature comfort while doing it.

showcrop · Jun 23, 2015

I have talked to the Coop about running them both from one meter because for many months the basic service charge in my shop is more than what I use in electricity, but they say that I can't do it the way that I asked them.

dr sportster · Jun 25, 2015

If you want to avoid the extra meter run to the shop from the 200 amp house panel. There is no sense in paying for an extra meter.

buickanddeere · Jun 25, 2015

(quoted from post at 20:47:13 06/22/15) I currently have 200 amp service to the house. Two of them want to run 100 amp service down to the shop (300') straight from that meter. The third guy wants to run a second service off the transformer about 30' away from my house and install a second meter at the shop. This would give me 200 amp service at the shop and an additional $10/month charge for the second meter; IF the power company will even allow that.

Is 100 amp service going to be enough? Two are telling me yes, one is saying I need 200 if I can get it.

Thanks for any input from those with more experience than I!

How will the shop/shed be grounded ?

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