Neighbor's claim on property?

jacks · Oct 19, 2015

I purchased some land a few years ago, based on the plat on file at the county courthouse. There is only one iron pin at one corner, the other boundaries are marked by treelines and creek centerlines. There are enough distances and headings on the plat to re-identify the corners. I came to find out that a neighbor who owns adjoining land set a steel pin ( maybe 20 years ago) which is at a location not indicated on the plat of my land. The location of the pin would indicate that my land area would be reduced by at least several acres compared to the plat. The neighbor said that the pin was set with the prior owner's permission.The land has only been used for timber during these years by PO of my land. I have title insurance, and want to have my land resurveyed. Would the PO have to have signed a deed or title transfer for the neighbor to have a legitimate claim to a portion of this land? What validity would any of these actions have if not filed at the courthouse? Any advice would be appreciated.

fastfarmall · Oct 19, 2015

Dont ever buy real estate with out a attorney with you.

jacks · Oct 19, 2015

I had the top attorney in the area representing me in the transaction.

BIG RUH · Oct 19, 2015

You need to have a survey of the property. Should have had it done before buying

fastfarmall · Oct 19, 2015

Well, he should be ab1e to answer you questions

jacks · Oct 19, 2015

I agree that a survey is needed. However, it is probably going to cost several thousand dollars, and neither my attorney or lender said that a new survey was required. There are probably some good arguments either way, but it appears that another buyer could offer without making the offer contingent on a new survey, and nnalert any contingent offer. As I understand it, title insurance covers any financial losses incurred due to subsequent valid claims on land that you purchase.

Goose · Oct 19, 2015

If the former owner of your property didn't object, your neighbor might be able to claim it by adverse possession.

da.bees · Oct 19, 2015

You desarve to lose part of your property simply for asking a bunch of old tractor collectors instaed of your lawyer and title company. Have you ever heard about "fiddling while Rhome burns"?

K Effective · Oct 19, 2015

I was once told that even the best survey is only as good as the two land owners agree that it is correct. We share a "four corners" with three other farms. The story from my Grandpa was always that the cattle fencing was installed three feet onto our property so he could maintain both sides. When the old guy to the east passed away and his property was surveyed, they located the ancient marker pin- three feet to the east of our east fence, but right on the north fence. More investigation on my part found another pin right in the north fence line at another junction. Seems Grandpa was half right...

Eldon (WA) · Oct 19, 2015

(quoted from post at 19:12:21 10/19/15) I purchased some land a few years ago, based on the plat on file at the county courthouse. There is only one iron pin at one corner, the other boundaries are marked by treelines and creek centerlines. There are enough distances and headings on the plat to re-identify the corners. I came to find out that a neighbor who owns adjoining land set a steel pin ( maybe 20 years ago) which is at a location not indicated on the plat of my land. The location of the pin would indicate that my land area would be reduced by at least several acres compared to the plat. The neighbor said that the pin was set with the prior owner's permission.The land has only been used for timber during these years by PO of my land. I have title insurance, and want to have my land resurveyed. Would the PO have to have signed a deed or title transfer for the neighbor to have a legitimate claim to a portion of this land? What validity would any of these actions have if not filed at the courthouse? Any advice would be appreciated.

Pins don't mean anything unless backed up by an amended legal description......unless he put a fence up according to the stake and maintained the property as his own for the required amount of years.

jacks · Oct 19, 2015

the only use of this land for the last 20/years has been timber harvest which was done by the owner that I purchased from. To claim adverse possession, I believe that it would be necessary to prove primary usage of the land in question. These laws are also probably somewhat different in different states.

moresmoke · Oct 19, 2015

You need the council of local professionals on this. If you are where
PLSS is followed you will get one answer.

If you are in an area where metes and bounds is used, it may be a tough
job for a very good surveyor to figure out. Have you looked at you
neighbors prosper description to see if it matches with yours? It
wouldn't be unusual if it didn't.

01gentdc · Oct 19, 2015

adverse possession is for azh+les with plenty of money and corrupt attorneys and judges to make it so ,.. I still have a mist corner that is 30 ft off .. it aint worth the 10 grand it will cost to prove I am rite,..deed description is king ,I don't give 2 hoots in hidlie about adverse possession , or where someone drove their stakes ... Indiana law suggests to call for a legal survey ,, with all parties and all deeds traced.. any objection concerns gets immediate fair litigation among parties and by judge if necessary ,.a simple survey wont fly unlees it matches perfectly with your neighbors . I learned this after I had my 40 acres surveyed and my neighbor surveyed his,.. the findings were nearly rite 2 the inch in both surveys,,but the new owner neighbor refutes his own survey as being just //// . trouble is 10 yrs before I bought my field the previous owner of my neighbors field had moved the stake into the field I would buy in 1987. he got away with it since the owner of my field was dying in florida , and no one challenged him ...that was around 1975 , .I farmed it 15yrs before a old man told me what happened .. and did not have the money for a survey until the property switch hands in 2007... woulda been easy if everyone was dedicated to doing what is fair and just and follow the deeds ,,..but I am up against a big time operator that don't care who he runs over to get his way ..his health is poor and will be dead soon ,, so he will get plenty of dirt,. don't know though, whether st peter will let him come thru the pearly gates

LAA · Oct 19, 2015

You have a piece of land under mortgage which was purchased with no current survey, that means the lender was confident in the title company finding that everything from the most recent survey was correct, regardless of how many years ago that survey was made. If the PO (legally) signed over any of the land it would have been recorded in the courthouse and the deed and land description would have a ''less and except'' clause, the neighbor sounds like an opportunist with a 100 foot measuring tape. Pull up the pins that the neighbor placed and tell him if he does not agree then he can pay for a new survey, the pins have to come up because many adverse possession clauses have 30 year limits and he already has a 20 year head start.

EricB · Oct 19, 2015

While my wife and I owned property in the US we witnessed a neighbour two doors over move the property peg to their convenience. We did not report it or file a complaint. In
Canada where we live, the justice system is far too lax...murder gets anyone very little jail time among other serious crimes. However, if someone is convicted of moving a
property peg it carries a consequence of seven years in jail. What is the punishment for such a crime in the US??

Pair-a-dice farm · Oct 20, 2015

Lawyers love cases like this. I would suggest a lawyer that specializes in real estate law. Laws of adverse possession vary by state, county and circmstance. I've been involved in 2 cases and both seemed similar but the results were opposite.

VADAVE · Oct 20, 2015

"I agree that a survey is needed. However, it is probably going to cost several thousand dollars"
If you agree a survey is needed and are guessing at the cost you are making a mistake. Ask your "best attorney in the area" or go to the best surveyor you can find and ask him the cost.
If you are really concerned a survey is absolutely required and the only argument to be settled is adverse possession.

showcrop · Oct 20, 2015

I am far from an expert on this but I immediately had three points to offer, but others have already brought them up, so I will just say that it looks like you have gotten some good worthwhile advice here to help you to head in the right direction.

Traditional Farmer · Oct 20, 2015

Get in touch with the Title Company and let them spend the $$$$ and settle things that's why you get them in the first place and do NOT do anything on your own as that may screw up the case for the title company or worse for you, relieve them of responsibility.

dhermesc · Oct 20, 2015

Start with a survey. If the pin is on your property pull it up and make it dissappear and never say you know what happened to it. After its surveyed build a fence along the survey lines.

LAA · Oct 20, 2015

The title company already did their job, they researched and documented a clean title before purchase. I have never heard of a title company becoming involved in a boundry dispute with a neighbor and that coverage is definitely not included in standard "owners" title insurance. He can do anything he wants on his own land, if he knows where the legal boundaries are according to the legal description filed in the courthouse he would be foolish to let the current situation run on, his neighbor has been trying to pull a fast one and got caught, the PO was probaly either absentee who did not visit much or elderly and unable to check on his business and the neighbor was taking advantage.

Paul Janke · Oct 20, 2015

It at least used to be that for adverse possession to hold up in Montana you had to not only take over use of the property, but you also had to pay the taxes on that land. That could make adverse possession much harder to accomplish.

NY 986 · Oct 20, 2015

I see lots of varying opinions here. Interesting but the only thing that matters is the law in your state. If your situation is anything similar to New York the neighbor has quite an advantage at this point. You need to talk to a lawyer with a background in real estate in the state that you live in.

John T Country Lawyer · Oct 20, 2015

As an attorney who lives in a rural area I GET THESE BOUNDARY DISPUTE QUESTIONS ALL THE TIME........

MY FREE PROFESSIONAL LEGAL ADVICE IS CONSULT A LOCAL ATTORNEY WHO SPECIALIZES IN BOUNDARY DISPUTE ISSUES AND REAL ESTATE AND DO NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT HANG YOU HAT ON ANYTHING ANY PROFESSIONAL (including me) OR NON ATTORNEY SAYS HERE. This area of the law is very LOCAL and STATE and fact sensitive and absent thorough trained professional legal research anything posted here isn't worth much (nothing actually lol)

Different states have way different common law or even codified statutes regarding ADVERSE POSESSION and its ONLY your states laws that matter here NOT Billy Bob or Bubbas state. Even so it requires an ACTION TO QUIET TITLE and there are several hurdles that have to be jumped before you can get a judgment or legally enforceable boundary established. THESE ACTIONS ARENT EASY OR FAST OR CHEAP and require expert surveyors opinions and extensive facts be determined.

In Indiana to prevail in an action to quiet title involving adverse possession the plaintiff has to establish HOSTILE OPEN CONTINUOUS ADVERSE NOTORIOUS POSESSION FOR YEARS . There are whole sections in a law library on this and I cant cover it here lol

In Indiana there is a process for A LEGAL SURVEY by which a boundary dispute can be settled but no idea if your state has such IF SO ITS THE EASIEST CHEAPEST ROUTE IN CASES

In any State a Surveyor DOES NOT ESTABLISH JUDICIAL BOUNDARIES. They can ONLY render expert opinions. If they do a survey that DOES NOT mean that becomes a legally enforceable line ONLY A COURT CAN DO THAT. A different surveyor may have a different line and opinion A COURT CAN ORDER ANBD RESOLVE A DISPUTE (absent Indiana legal survey option)

I don't see any Title Insurance Company helping at all. Any doubts they have already excepted in their A or B exceptions

CONSULT A LOCAL REAL ESTATE AND BOUNDARY DISPUTE ATTORNEY AND DO NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTT TAKE ANY ACTION BASED ON ANYHTING POSTED HERE MINE INCLUDED ...........................

You may well have a good case I cant say absent a thorough research and getting all the facts nor can anyone else

John T BSEE, JD Attorney at Law

Pair-a-dice farm · Oct 20, 2015

From my experience all tile insurance covers is any lien held on the property that the title company may have missed during a lien search. All a surve3y does is show where the property line is supposed to be, adverse possession can change that and in my opinion is nothing more than legalized land theft. My wife lost 20 acres of good farm land simply because she didn't know where the property line was and when her father died the neighbor simply moved over and took the land. My wife continued to pay the taxes but since the neighbor farmed it for 7 years it became his. How that happens varies a lot by state and even county.

JOB · Oct 20, 2015

Minnesota has a 15 year adverse possession law and some states have a 7 year possession, not sure who they are though.

dhermesc · Oct 20, 2015

Without a fence in place the claim of adverse possession is much harder to make. Simply driving a pin and claiming the former owner verbally approved is a weak to nonexistant case, especially if no other real claim to the property has been made (no property tax payments etc..) - stealing wood from time to time doesn't make one the owner.

jimg.allentown · Oct 20, 2015

Well, after reading through this thread, I can only offer a few of my thoughts....

Your land and boundaries are recorded and certified on your deed as well as in the county government's offices. Since a landowner has been (presumably) paying taxes on the disputed land, that should offer him a stronger case against adverse possession.

It has always been my understanding that a survey is the final word on where the boundaries are. Surveys are based on cold, hard fact, and not on a surveyor's opinion. That is why they use their special equipment to precisely locate boundaries. I would think that even several surveyors would agree on where the boundaries are.

It would also seem to me that adverse possession is similar to squatter's rights. I would also think that a certain amount of common sense (yeah, I know) would be applied to the circumstances. BUT, if you steal my car, and drive it for several years, the still does not make it yours. Why should it not be the same as that for land????

Overall, I suggest that you listen to what the other posters have said. GET A SURVEY, GET LEGAL REPRESENTATION, and don't depend on what you read on a tractor forum. That there is the best advice you can get!!

NY 986 · Oct 20, 2015

In New York adverse possession is similar to squatter's rights. The party that pushes does not need a fence to make the claim. I've heard of successful AP by simply leaving lawn chairs on the property in question in conjuncture with keeping wild growth (not mowing by the way) from taking over. Most of the time AP comes into play because of an absentee neighbor owner or one who is not capable of monitoring their boundaries.

JOB · Oct 20, 2015

I had a surveyor cross my line by starting from an erroneously placed section corner, he platted my property as his own, and had it recorded. The
county even had the overlap marked on the county records. But nothing was ever said to me. The County surveyor did an extensive re survey and
relocated the section corner back to the 1850 or so position. The county surveyor prorated the quarter/quarter line so the NW quarter has an extra ten feet on
the south and the SW quarter of the NW quarter is minus ten feet on it's north side. I had a 20 foot overlap I did not know I had, until a neighbor
with the overlap had a survey done. He has title insurance. Lawyers exchanged phone calls and letters for three years and nothing got accomplished until
my lawyer sued the neighbor. The end result was we settled on the new prorated quarter/quarter line and the neighbors title insurance paid me what I
lost and title insurance paid the neighbor to the north what he lost.

I would suggest to talk with a real estate attorney.
Or you could have your property surveyed. If the line is not where your neighbor says it is build a fence. Then tell your neighbor to sue you and if
you lose you will remove the fence. Title insurance will not do anything unless there is a law suite. Property line disputes will cost money.

I would still talk to a real estate attorney before you do anything. Good Luck

JOB · Oct 20, 2015

Some states require that you pay taxes on the property you want to claim adverse possession on. Minnesota does not and it sounds like NY does not either. All stated have adverse possession laws but the law varies from state to state.

old-ford-fan · Oct 20, 2015

(quoted from post at 08:57:15 10/20/15) Start with a survey. If the pin is on your property pull it up and make it dissappear and never say you know what happened to it. After its surveyed build a fence along the survey lines.

>I like this idea, although I can't recommend it. You could just be plowing there and hit it and remove as something in the way. Don't know what the laws are in whatever state you are in, but I would think that a metal stake buried in the ground might not really meet the open and obvious parts of adverse possession - you shouldn't be required to walk around on your place with a metal detector over every part of it. There should be reference points from buried official survey markers elsewhere. With modern GPS, they should be able to pinpoint within some number of feet where this one would be. Otherwise they could survey from other reference points to figure it out - maybe if indication that this marker was moved or tampered with? Check with a good lawyer.

Traditional Farmer · Oct 20, 2015

Well my neighbor and another landowner are in almost exactly the same type dispute and the title company is footing the bill.He'd really be stupid to hire lawyers if the title company will do it for him.

Zachary Hoyt · Oct 20, 2015

I heard a few years ago that adverse possession had been ended in NY except for cases where there was an actual difference of understanding of where the lines had always been. This makes it impossible to claim a property that you have known was not your own, however long you used it or maintained it. Here is a link I found with a quick Google search that describes the changes to adverse possession in NY.
Zach
Here

dr sportster · Oct 20, 2015

That AP does not work in my state . People have tried to pull that and the judge denies the claim everytime. It is not their property.

NY 986 · Oct 20, 2015

Thanks for posting that. There was a case west of here in the last couple years but it must have been filed prior to the date listed in the article. The article states that no new cases can be filed after the date mentioned but does not preclude anything on record previous to it.

NY 986 · Oct 20, 2015

When I say new cases I mean those that may have fit the old guidelines but not the current ones. Like the article stated AP cases can only be filed if there is a legitimate legal question as to boundaries versus taking advantage of an inattentive neighbor.

MSS3020 · Oct 20, 2015

had huge issues when I bought my place years ago.. First thing was I received letter from the attorney from farmer to the east.. stated that he wouldnot recognize the pins that the surveyors put in the ground marking property.. he only acknowledged the old fence row. The old fence was not even around still except may be a couple hedge posts scattered sparsly along the line.. I got an attorney.. she told me to document the lot line....by mowing it and keeping it up and document it by photos.. every year..which I did. Well turned out the guy died shortly after so that went away with new ownership...BUT I still keep it up..

jacks · Oct 20, 2015

Thanks to all for the advice. It sounds like my best course of action is to schedule a consult with my attorney and get his recommendation on how best to proceed. In my opinion, there is a wealth of valuable experience and advice routinely posted on this forum, much of it from guys who have been through similar situations and are willing to help out.

jacks · Oct 20, 2015

Thanks to all for the advice. It sounds like my best course of action is to schedule a consult with my attorney and get his recommendation on how best to proceed. In my opinion, there is a wealth of valuable experience and advice routinely posted on this forum, much of it from guys who have been through similar situations and are willing to help out.

Hobo,NC · Oct 20, 2015

What stands out to me "prior owner's permission" BTDT he did not own it but thought he did... The transaction was all in good will know money involved even tho I had a attorney document it and recorded at the court house he did not own it I was SOL push come to shove....That's more common than you would think it would be.

Neighbor's claim on property?

Member

Well-known Member

Member

Member

Well-known Member

Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Member

Well-known Member

Member

Well-known Member

Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Member

Member

Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Well-known Member

Member

Member

Well-known Member

Similar threads