Organic farming questions

I know this is a sore subject for some, but I have some serious questions for those of you who do farm organically. I assume you can't use treated seed? nor BT corn? I bought some sweet corn that was raised organic, and they need to add some more birds to their fields. Threw out about half of it because of bugs. I am not really knocking the organic market. Shoot I haul lots of organic crops at such a premium over conventional crops that I might have to actually work for a living if they didn't exist.
I have seen some great looking organic fields, and I have scene some JUNK, but the same goes with conventional crops.
I did get a load of organic corn east of Watertown SD. Can't think of the name of the town, but they were building flamers, so I thought I would pass their web-site on to others. I have absolutely no connection to the place other then they had some good looking corn.
Flame farming

You have to use organic seed and organic feed . not even allowed to use railroad ties on the place for anything . Also you don?t just say oh skippity do dah I think I?ll be organic non organic land has to be farmed for two years organic at least before it can be organic an non organic milk cow even fed organic feed can never ever be sold for slaughter as organic and she also can?t be milked into the organic tank for two years . you have to pay an per acre fee and you have to keep all records of all field work yields how much manure you put on and everything else that you do on your farm .

If you had railroad ties before transitioning you can still keep them. This falls under the grandfather clause. You can not bring in treated wood after you are certified organic. Some rules seem silly, but rules are rules. Al

Friend went organic a few years ago with his 80 cow dairy. What a nightmare! Good thing his wife is good with paperwork. Plus form what I understand he is subject to no notice inspection 24/7/365. But he makes OK money compared to guys going the conventional path.

Rick

Must be magic because all the Organic 'Experts' here say organic farming is impossible but when I go into a grocery that sells nothing but organic food the shelves are full of all sorts of great quality
food.So apparently its magic or there are some farmers with more smarts and more farming skill than the folks here know.

Please someone, show me any veggies grain or meat that is NOT organic.

The one puzzling rule for me is that you can use manure from other farms that are not organic. So the manure comes from perhaps gmo crops that are perhaps fertilized and sprayed and perhaps pass through a critter that is treated with medicines.

And then spread on an organic farm field. To raise organic crop?

As you mention there can be many little rules and details. That just comes with the deal. But the manure thing seems a big short circuit to the whole deal. I could see if it needed to be piled/ composted three years, as three years seems to be the magic amount of time.

Not trying to complain about it, just a curious thing for me.

Paul

I have heard if you use manure from non organic livestock it does need to sit for awhile before spreading.

I am not currently a Organic farmer, let me make this point abundantly clear from the start.
Now I am on the road to having one of my farms, 160 acres Certified Organic. The certifying body that I am working with is called Pro Cert , and does Organic Certification in both Canada and north USA. And yes there are fees to be Certified Organic , it will cost me $800.00 each year for this one farm.
The Certifying body has a board that decide what is acceptable and what is not acceptable to meet their Organic Standards. In other words, they make the rules, and many of the rules seem arbitrary to most folks, but are based in not just no use of chemicals , or GMO technology, but based more in the whole idea of sustainability, humane care and treatment of livestock, and the general feeling that the plants and animals growing on the farm are allowed to do so within the regulations set down by both the certifying body and the final consumer of the products. An example would be , hens allowed to run free , not kept in cages. Or milk cows have to be allowed pasture, and not kept in total confinement barns. Are the eggs or milk going to be different, no much, but it is the idea that the cows and hens would be allowed to behave and socialize in a more natural environment.
My land must be farmed for three years with no chemical sprays, or fertilizer to be eligible to be Certified Organic. My cows , fed and housed conventional now , can be Certified Organic after one year of being fed organic feed, and kept in a manner compiling with Organic Standards. Livestock can be treated once with an antibiotic, with a prescription, under a Veterinarys care, and face double the withdrawall time. If a cow should need further treatment in subsequent years, she is allowed to be treated, but once restored to health, must be removed from the farm as she is no longer compliant with Organic Standards.
Anyone can claim to grow things ?Organic ? , and eat worms are common in organic grown corn. The bug that lays the eggs that hatch and becomes the eat worm are much more active during some points in the season than others. So the very early corn may be bug free, the main season corn could be loaded with ear worms. While the late season corn , which matured in September or early October can be totally bug free.. like everything, these pest have their season.
While I myself, am not a Organic Zealot, it is to me just a matter of producing a product, within a set of production protocols. And if there is a market for these products, and a premium paid to produce them, then why not if so minded go after it? It always seems most critics of Organic Production, can only see the do?s and don?ts as silly. I don?t try to question the logic of the rules for Certified Organic Production, I simply realize that if I want to sell into this high priced market, then my farm will have to be fully compliant with the rules governing Organic Standards.
It is much easier for Dairy farmers to accept the rules dictated to them, because Dairy farmers are already under the microscope of scrutiny from the milk processor and the milk inspectors. And the paper work and protocols Dairy farmers face now in conventional milk production, would be enough to make most of your heads pop off.
I may never become a fully Certified Organic Dairy, but the possibility does exist, and the incentives and premiums are increasing. And my farm is part way there, so..... I can always go back conventional with one pass of the sprayer. Bruce

(quoted from post at 22:11:31 08/23/18)
Please someone, show me any veggies grain or meat that is NOT organic.

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Exactly!! "Organic" is the current buzz-word. If I do not fertilize, or make use of pesticides on my sweetcorn, I do not get a crop of sweetcorn.

I use approved organic fertilizers and products only on my sweet corn and produce plenty every year.Actually organic fertilizers and soil amendments are superior to chemical ones.

Yes there are rules for manure. It needs to be properly composted with records of temperature and time, or a certain amount of time on the field before harvest, that depends on the crop. There are also some products that can be used in the feed that will disqualify the manure from being used. At least that is what I remember from a number of years ago when I was doing it.

Paul, I know we cannot use manure that is not from organic production. It may be decided by the certifying agency. We have 2 large feedlots close by that are always wanting to dispose of the manure but when I called our agency they said it was a big no no.

There are good farmers that farm organically and there are lazy, stu pid farmers that farm organically. I've see crops from the good and bad sitting side by side and it's night and day. Some people seem to think that if you slap an "organic" label on something that means you can get 3x the price for garbage crops. The beauty of capitalism is that the consumer will figure out the good from the bad and the dummy will fail shortly, while the good farmer profits.

IOW- don't judge all organic farming by a few bad examples. I'm not organic, but a lot of the bad mouthing is simply that- bad mouthing.

Not sure why but I have always been a bit suspicious of the certified organic label, I guess I'm what they call a Doubting Thomas. In addition to all of that, am I correct in assuming that people who buy organic products do so in order to:

a) live longer
b) save the planet
c) make themselves feel good
d) all of the above
e) none of the above

Pretty sure answer d would what motivates people to buy Organic. Most consumers don?t know their arse from their elbow about agricultural, just want to feel that they are being proactive in their choices. Not one of these folks will want to give up any of their luxury items to ?save the planet ?. They aren?t going to give up conspicuous consumption of automobiles, or plane trips to distant destinations for fun and frolic. So they want to do their part in saving the planet by doing what they do best, blowing $$$ on ? feel good ? ideas. And that is of coarse, their right and choice.

I don't farm organic, nor do I ever plan to but I am not against it. Like Brett said we are free to pick and choose just about any farming practice to use as an example to enforce our beliefs.



When I was on the harvest we harvested wheat for an organic farmer in Colorado. He looked like an old hippie from the 60's but he was a very intelligent and progressive person. His wheat was clean and yielded respectably in comparison to neighboring farmers. I do realize raising wheat in Colorado is a world apart from raising row crops here in Iowa where we have black soil along with more rain and humidity.

Here at home in Iowa there is an organic farmer a few miles from me who will have one clean field, then another field of weeds. His crops as a whole do not look that good. The land he farms was owned by an eccentric old bachelor who did not want chemicals used on his land. The original land owner has passed away but the land is still organic so I'm guessing there is a no chemical stipulation in the lease.


An organic farm here in Iowa's row crop area does not need to be a weedy mess. When I was a kid we farmed organic, everyone did. We had clean crops, it just took a lot more man hours per acre to raise that organic crop including (groan) walking the corn and beans to pull weeds. We had more farmers with big families to provide the labor.

If organic farming was suddenly legislated as being the only farming practice we could use we wouldn't have nearly enough labor force to make it work. We would need many more steering wheel holders and grunt workers. Maybe someday we will have drone tractors that will pull row crop cultivators to handle the weeds but that's not going to happen anytime soon. The labor force that could walk the fields to rogue weeds is a hot topic I won't touch.

I think you confuse impossible with wanting evidence that it is viable. I'm not against it, I'm just a doubter. I've seen several folks try organic, but no successful ones locally yet. I've seen posts on the high price for organic crops but no figures on yield or cost of production, as well as any evidence of long term profit/loss. I've seen opinions that organic is safer, healthier, and more nutricious, but not one scientific study to prove that. You want to shut up the "so called experts", just post evidence and figures to back up your side. I would be all in favor of chemical free farming if it is actually safer, healthier, and profitable.

I will be watching your journey closely. I hope that you will be more forthcoming with info about costs and yields and such than other organic farmers so we can see how it really works out for yyou. Some real figures would help to determine if it's a viable option.

I know different certifiers view or rule differently on things? anyhow those around me that are in organics, have said manure is not a problem where it comes from. Anyhow that is what Ive been told, perhaps i wasn't told the full story or something.

Thanks.

Paul

I was under the impression one needed a three crop rotation for some organic certification; but i see a fella near here is growing organic sweet corn for hthe second year in a row. He did have a cover crop that did not grow well due to our weather this year, but i wouldnt think that would be enough 'rotation' to a different crop.

no big deal to me, just interesting how the rules are interpreted.

Paul

The evidence is in every organic grocery you go in,no one is going to give you a blue print for success for there isn't one I have ever heard of.Since you not going to be a buyer no one is
going to waste their time trying to prove anything to you.If you're making good money selling your crops to the Chinese then keep on doing it.

They are bad mouthing what they can't do and hope no one else can either.

That only shows that it is available, it tells nothing about farmer profits or long term viability. You also haven't addressed safety, nutrition, or any health benefit. If there is no verifiable benefit how can you say it will survive long term? When the economy is good it is easy to get folks to spend. But when things get tight you will have to be able to verify an advantage. I would love to be able to farm that way, but so far you have offered nothing to contradict my experience which is that I've never seen an organic farm last more than 10 years, and those usually lost a ton of money. I've been thinking about farming my farm with low imputs, not really organic, but low chemical use and if possible grow my 9an seed etc. I may try banding herbicide on the row and getting by with cultivating. If that works I may try organic.

I will chime back in. Any of you guys that eat Kellogs cereal for breakfast are supporting organic grown grain.
I still contend that a good farmer can grow certified grain and produce it just as clean as his neighbor that sprays. A pizz poor farmer can't grow anything even with chemicals!
Again I have scene some excellent organic crops, but I have had some rejected at the mill too.

Face it nothing would ever change your mind would be a total waste of time to try and frankly I couldn't care less what you raise or eat.Someone that honestly would like to find out more I have lots of information on places they can access information.Its guys like you that is driving the organic industry so keep it up.

In other words you have nothing

A little factual support for my side. It appears that I'm not alone.
Organic farming trends

Apparently your reading comprehension skills ain't hitting on much.Why would I waste time and effort on you? So think what you want grow what you want and continue to produce the lowest priced
commodities if it works for you fine.Producing for people wanting the cheapest thing they can get is not a good plan in my opinion.

Lol, too bad you have to resort to insults rather than substance. Oh well.....

Most people that buy organic produce do so because they want to have some assurance that it was raised without potentially toxic chemicals.
At least in a grocery store, produce from all over the world can contain some evil pesticides and less than wholesome growing techniques.

In general, organic and organically raised produce is not necessarily any different in taste or even quality. BUT, it is also not laced with pesticides, residues of herbicides, and whatever else. Not just a "feel good" thing, either.

My humble belief is that we are too dependent on chemicals in farming. I'm not convinced of the long term safety of some of the products in use today. Something that you eat today with no obvious effects is not necessarily going to be free of effects over 10 years or more of exposure. As a shining example, I point to tobacco. One can smoke a cigarette today with no obvious ill effects. But, over 10 years or more of smoking, the effects will become more apparent. The same goes for produce loaded with pesticides or herbicides.

Try raising cereal grain with no weed control and see what happens . I?ve raised it and harvested it on many different farms on all types of soil it?s great if you want to lose half sometimes more in yield from weeds choking the crop out but go ahead supper farmer do want nobody also can on farms over 200 square miles

Yes compost is great for the soil and it is better than chemical fertilizers but it costs 3 times as much it?s getting popular around here thousands of semi loads get spread here in the fall but compost also has weed seed in it not much survives but some still does . Sweet corn and other row crops and pasture are easy to do organic because you can cultivate to keep the weeds controlled . Pasture with just a little bit of management will choke the grass and weeds out buy itself once it?s established . I sprayed my pasture for the first time in 35 years this year it?s been a terrible year for weeds this year . With the onsetting of this drought the weeds will continue to be a problem but they can be managed pretty easy

The organic label is put there buy the government and you pay to get it . The same government that nobody trusts when it come to conventional farming and testing to make sure your food is safe

It is not just manure it is every single thing you do on your farm from tillage seedbed prep and seed used and record of where it came from to how much fuel you used

I'm not "organic", but I'm also not for dumping whatever chemical the current chem salesman recommends on everything in sight. I've seen what indiscriminate use of wormers has given us over a decade in sheep. The same thing will happen with other stuff. A little bit, used wisely and conservatively when needed, is one thing. Spraying because "it's time to spray" is going to come back and bite us eventually.