Pole barn poles rotted

Hi,

I have a pole barn used as a garage with a dirt floor. It's fairly damp in general and plan to have a concrete floor installed soon. There is a problem in that some of the posts are rotted where they make ground contact. A few are 6x6", and some others are 4x4". I cut one of 6x6 posts about 3 ft up from the ground, pulled it out (it just fell over) and tried digging down around it to see if there was a footer. But between the rocky ground and some solid wood still in the ground, that was near impossible and I stopped after about a foot or so.

It occurred to me that I can have them pour the concrete up to the existing posts, then install new posts sitting on top of the concrete floor and mate the old with the new by sandwiching between a couple 2x12's. I'd lose a little inside space by adding a post to the interior side of the existing posts, but not enough to matter.

What I'm not sure about is while I'll regain strength on forces pushing down on the roof, but what about lateral forces? With the new posts just sitting on the concrete, there is no resistance to say, wind. Although there are cross-members near the roof, and it hasn't had much support that way anyway since before I bought the place last year, maybe this is the wrong way to do it.

Thinking I could try to use my 3pt posthole digger and try digging adjacent to the existing posts enough to set a pole in concrete, but maybe this just going overboard?

Any thoughts appreciated.

new pole barns in my area are built with concrete posts like you're talking about, they make a steel saddle that goes atop the concrete post. it is made part of the post. just get some rebar and make your own that extend down a couple feet into your new concrete post then bolt your post to it.

Take 4 0r 5 ft long, by 4in. or 5in. angle iron 3/8 in thick drive down as far as your 8 lbs sledge will drive it next to pole. Drill 1/2 in . holes in the angle iron and through the pole and bolt it together.That will support weight and side wind. Bolt it twice at least.

hello. In my opinion and experience, the best result would be to use your digger and ideally go down
below the frost line. dig a hole, get one of those cardboard tubes used to fill with cement, and fill it
with concrete. Install a post saddle in the concrete and bolt your post to it. Saddles are available in
many sizes. If below the frost line your foundation will be secure and not move.
Kris

I've seen several pole buildings with the same, rotted off at ground level poles. Easiest fix is to dig a new hole right next to the rotted pole and drop in a ground contact rated pressure treated 4x4 or 6x6. Drill through the new pole and through the old pole and insert a bolt, a couple of flat washers, and a nut. Should be good to go for 20 to 30 more years minimum.

Farmerblair; go ahead and place the concrete for the floor. But box out or put forms around each existing pole. After the floor has cured remove forms at each post. Place a 4x4 or 6x6 short post on each side of your old post, supported by the new concrete floor, then nail or screw or bolt a 2x8 across all three. This will support your post when you cut off the bottom of the old post. Using the new concrete floor as a guide, you can cut off the old post. Dig out the old rotten portion of the post. How you end up securing the post to the new concrete you will place at each pole is a decision you can make. Using post support anchors someone else mentioned, or bolting angle irons to your post then attaching anchor bolts. Drill some one half inch holes into your new concrete floor, put some rebar dowels in and put in the concrete. Concrete beneath the pole should be 8-12 inches thick, tapered down from your new concrete floor. This method allows you to take on the replacement of one pole at a time as time and money permit, without allowing the roof to sag. We would probably all be surprised by how many pole barns have rotten timber poles just down below the floor/ground level. good luck with your project. gobble

A local company builds pole barns. They first put down a concrete slab and
attaches poles above ground to the slab.

That's how I'm going to build my next pole barn.

If I had your problem I would dig out rotted post using a motorized post hole digger and fill hole with concrete
to ground level. Then attach existing posts to concrete. If post were rotted
above ground I could scab on a post to existing post.

That's what I did. Ellis

google repairing rotten pole barn post

Best is to dig through the dirt beside the old post to below frost or 4 feet, put in a stub pole, and use long bolts (rebar) to sister the new post to
the old post.

Since you want to do a concrete floor, you can pour, make a fatter (deeper) foundation piece along the edge, and then use big angle iron type
brackets to bolt to the floor and to the remaining old post. This effectively turns your pole building, anchored into the ground, into a floating slab
building, so doing a few posts one way and leaving others the old way can be a problem if you live where there is frost and winter and such.
Just remember the wall needs sideways and upward stability with wind, and so you need the concrete and the brackets strong enough to hold
both the downward weight of the building, as well as the side pressure of the wind and the lifting pressure of the wind. If this is a car shed size
or a 60x84 size shed with tall sidewalls will make a difference here!

What I would not do is try to encase a pole in the poured concrete floor. No! The poles are anchored to the subsoil, the floor slab floats on the
clay and frost. The two will move several inches to each other over the year, you do not want them both ways fixed to each other. Put slip
plastic around the poles to keep a sliding seam between the poles and the concrete. Bad things happen over the years if you try to go both
ways in most climates.

Paul

Any concern with headers between the posts being built too light to hold the trusses or rafters? Ours were on one barn and the posts were
rotted off. After concrete we just studded up walls on the floor and lifted them into the cavity between the posts. We need studs anyway to make
an office in one end.

Every house built on a slab just sits on top of the slab and is accorded to the slab by nails driven into the concrete or anchor bolts every few feet. So your worry or lateral forces can be dealt with.
What a house built on a slab has that you need consider is a footing with rebar below frost line and wide enough to hold the weight.

What I would do is dig out the old post and pour a cylinder footing just below the post.
This will get your wood above grade and give you something solid to set the post on.
They sell metal anchors you can set into the wet concrete that you can attach a 6x6 post to.

FarmerBlair, What you need are these, go to www.permacolumn.com they made just for this application & new builds, Alan

We just repaired about 7 rotted poles on our building. Researched lots of methods. We dug rotted sections out....put cardboard tubes in.....put saddles with long re-rod extending down into wet concrete in cardboard tubes.....worked great. Some of the poles had also been repaired by previous owner by digging down along rotted poles....removing rotted sections......putting new pole in ground running up several feet parallel to older pole.....bolt them together with long bolts.

I got some used cutting edges from the road commission. They almost always have piles of them and are harden steel with holes drilled in them. I pulled the rotted poles out after cutting them off at ground level, put 3-4 feet of cutting edge in the hole and drilled holes through the old post and installed threaded rod. Then pour cement in the hole that the old post came from. I form up a foot or so to keep the steel from ground contact. I have done this many times and feel a 1 inch thick steel plate will last the rest of my lifetime. Al

Im a retired building inspector. Ordinary treated lumber at the lumber yard does NOT have enough chemicals to last in the ground for the life of a building. That stuff is rated only for decks and fence posts. Here's how much chemical you have to have for a permanent foundation or permanent building pole;
It may be special order;

?NatureWood? Alkaline Copper Quaternary ACQ
Minimum 0.60 pcf ACQ for Structural / Building Pole / Foundation Use

?Micro-Pro / Smart-Sense? Micronized Copper Quaternary MCQ
Minimum 0.60 pcf MCQ for Structural / Building Pole / Foundation Use

?Micro-Pro / Life-Wood? Micronized Copper (tebuconazole) Azole MCA
Minimum 0.23 pcf MCA for Structural / Building Pole / Foundation Use

Ordinary lumber yard poles might not have enough chemicals.
Those poles might only be approved by the manufacturers for decks or fence posts, NOT for permanent structural building foundations.

Neighbor has this problem. Poles been in ground 40 years. Called pole building company. They want $375 per post to repair.

Poles and posts in the ground rot out in the top 12" to 18" of dirt because of aerobic microbes that live in
that area. To prevent or stop rotting pour used motor oil around the post several times a year. This cuts
off oxygen to the microbes. Scratch the dirt around the post back a little to make a dam to keep the oil
from spreading out. It's never too late to start doing this. Yeah I know the EPA doesn't approve.

Ditto, I have used their brackets and they work well.

Sounds to me like the biggest problem is the digging. If you've got hard ground with lots of rocks, it's not a matter of "just dig down beside it." You may as well be chipping away at solid granite for all the good you're doing.

Unfortunately there is no easy solution, other than to ignore it and let the building fall over. It may well be worth $375 per post to get some younger, stronger backs in there to do the hard work.

Another option is an electric demolition hammer. Not a full size jackhammer, one of the smaller handheld ones, with a spade bit, to loosen up the soil and rattle the rocks so you can dig them out.

FBH ....... years ago I remember a friend building a new house with a wooden basement ...... the product "Wolmanized" lumber and plywood seemed to stick in my memory bank, I'm sure you've experienced it in your travels. Here's a link to their products that would apply in this case on the post here, lots of reading but lots of valid information at the same time ....
Untitled URL Link

Many thanks to everyone with the great suggestions and ideas on this problem! It really helps out.
Blair

This topic got me worried, so I went out and probed some of my barns posts for rot. Thankfully, didn’t find any.