- Thread starter hadley
- Start date
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
Nope.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
Just to be clear, the critical value of a condensor is its capacitance. It's capacitance is tuned to the coil inductance. Since the inductance of six and twelve volt coils are the same, they both need condensors with the same capacitance. (Really, most coils are actually six volt coils, regardless of their labels, but that's another discussion.)
Sometimes there is a difference. It is more about the coil windings and not the system voltage. Many so-called "6 volt" systems use the
same coils as some "12 volt" systems.
The condensor is there to balance the electrical arc across the points in an attempt to keep it even. So the capacitor is rated in
microfarads and is supposed to be matched to the inductance of the coil.
Long story short - yes, condensors/capacitors vary, but not by a huge amount. In tractors they can run from .18 MFD to .28 MFD. If one is
not matched correctly the engine still runs fine. The points just burn out prematurely.
My Ford tractor with a 6 volt system has a coil with 1.1 ohms on the primary and calls for a condensor with .21 to .25 MFD.
You can find these sort of specs on any tractor, battery or mag if you research it.
same coils as some "12 volt" systems.
The condensor is there to balance the electrical arc across the points in an attempt to keep it even. So the capacitor is rated in
microfarads and is supposed to be matched to the inductance of the coil.
Long story short - yes, condensors/capacitors vary, but not by a huge amount. In tractors they can run from .18 MFD to .28 MFD. If one is
not matched correctly the engine still runs fine. The points just burn out prematurely.
My Ford tractor with a 6 volt system has a coil with 1.1 ohms on the primary and calls for a condensor with .21 to .25 MFD.
You can find these sort of specs on any tractor, battery or mag if you research it.
teddy52food
Well-known Member
Can you explain how that happens? Why don't we harvest that extra voltage?
Hadley, great question here's the deal.
First of all, regardless if the condenser (aka Capacitor) is used in a 6 or 12 volt system, that's (6 or 12 volt system relative to the condensors insulation properties) in the scheme of things NOT MUCH DIFFERENCE. The voltage withstand rating, or the insulation value if you will of the condensor, IS MUCH HIGHER THEN 6 OR EVEN 12 VOLTS anyway and may be the same if used on a 6 OR 12 volt system. The critical factor is the capacitance which, if properly matched to the inductance of the coil, increases the life of the points and reduces the situation where there's mounding on one set of the points and deep pitting on the opposite side, one among other SIGNS OF AN IMPROPER SIZED CONDENSOR.
If the condenser is undersized or not even there at all, the coil can still produce a spark, but the points will burn prematurely.
Some time back I spoke with a rebuilder who claimed nearly 50% of the condensors he buys in bulk are out of spec grrrrrrrrrrrrrr
SUMMARY there's not much if any difference in the voltage withstand or insulation value of a condenser regardless if used on a 6 or 12 volt tractor HOWEVER there's a HUGE difference if its not sized correctly to match the coils inductance.
Hope this helps, best wishes n God Bless
John T
First of all, regardless if the condenser (aka Capacitor) is used in a 6 or 12 volt system, that's (6 or 12 volt system relative to the condensors insulation properties) in the scheme of things NOT MUCH DIFFERENCE. The voltage withstand rating, or the insulation value if you will of the condensor, IS MUCH HIGHER THEN 6 OR EVEN 12 VOLTS anyway and may be the same if used on a 6 OR 12 volt system. The critical factor is the capacitance which, if properly matched to the inductance of the coil, increases the life of the points and reduces the situation where there's mounding on one set of the points and deep pitting on the opposite side, one among other SIGNS OF AN IMPROPER SIZED CONDENSOR.
If the condenser is undersized or not even there at all, the coil can still produce a spark, but the points will burn prematurely.
Some time back I spoke with a rebuilder who claimed nearly 50% of the condensors he buys in bulk are out of spec grrrrrrrrrrrrrr
SUMMARY there's not much if any difference in the voltage withstand or insulation value of a condenser regardless if used on a 6 or 12 volt tractor HOWEVER there's a HUGE difference if its not sized correctly to match the coils inductance.
Hope this helps, best wishes n God Bless
John T
It acts like a bunge cord. The greater the weight of object getting slung out there on a bungee,
the more capacity the cord needs to return weight to neutral positiion. Instead of weight it is
electromotive force and we want to balance it to get a full collapse of the coil voltage with
little arcing or lost energy across the points. Cave man explanation.
the more capacity the cord needs to return weight to neutral positiion. Instead of weight it is
electromotive force and we want to balance it to get a full collapse of the coil voltage with
little arcing or lost energy across the points. Cave man explanation.
Janicholson
Well-known Member
The coil and condenser resonate, as the spark dies out across the plug being fired, the condenser is charged from the last spark collapse. This voltage rushes into the coil and charges it again. the coil then has its magnetism collapse producing voltage in the condenser (it might be in the 250 volt range) The resistance of the wires, and eddy currents in the iron core of the coil deplete this resonance until there is no voltage remaining. Remember the coil and condenser are in series. Then the points close, switching only ignition voltage from the battery. Kettering Ignition principles enplanes it. In the image it is the squiggle from 1.0 to 2.0, the points close at -4.8ms Jim
If the condenser is undersized or not even there at all, the coil can still produce a spark, but the points will burn prematurely. " Yes,'a spark'.....but in many cases it will be of insufficient energy to make an engine run, as so much of the energy stored in the coil will be dissipated in the arc across the opening points, that would have been quenched by the condenser and thus applied to the spark plug arc.
teddy52food
Well-known Member
Here we are looking at a small ing. coil. What if we wound up a coil with miles of wire? Put a small charge to it & what would be the outcome? Way more than the input!
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
> Can you explain how that happens? Why don't we harvest that extra voltage?
You can't "harvest" voltage. The only useful thing you can harvest from an electrical circuit is energy. Energy equals work. Or power, which is just a rate of work.
All the energy you put into an ignition coil and its associated condensor is converted into heat. Most is used (hopefully) by the spark across the plug gap. Some is used to arc across the distributor points. And whatever is left is dissipated by resistance in the primary coil winding and ballast resistor. The voltage spikes seen at the condensor are an indication that energy is being momentarily stored in the condensor, but ultimately that energy is dissipated by resistance in the system.
You can't "harvest" voltage. The only useful thing you can harvest from an electrical circuit is energy. Energy equals work. Or power, which is just a rate of work.
All the energy you put into an ignition coil and its associated condensor is converted into heat. Most is used (hopefully) by the spark across the plug gap. Some is used to arc across the distributor points. And whatever is left is dissipated by resistance in the primary coil winding and ballast resistor. The voltage spikes seen at the condensor are an indication that energy is being momentarily stored in the condensor, but ultimately that energy is dissipated by resistance in the system.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
> Here we are looking at a small ing. coil. What if we wound up a coil with miles of wire? Put a small charge to it & what would be the outcome? Way more than the input!
Teddy, you can't get more energy out of an electrical device than you put into it. I know you have a fascination with perpetual motion machines, but nobody has made one yet, and nobody will.
Teddy, you can't get more energy out of an electrical device than you put into it. I know you have a fascination with perpetual motion machines, but nobody has made one yet, and nobody will.
teddy52food
Well-known Member
Who said anything about perpetual motion? A match can light a firecracker or a train car load of dynamite. But does the power of the explosion come from the match? Think about it. Getting over a hundred volts kicking out of a little coil, How much more out of a big coil.? A lot more! E=MC2
teddy52food
Well-known Member
The voltage spikes seen at the condenser are being produced by the windings of the coil triggered by the 6 volt input. The energy stored in the condenser is lost when the points close & it goes to the ground.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
> Who said anything about perpetual motion?
Teddy, you have a long history of perpetual motion posts, although you keep insisting you're talking about something that isn't perpetual motion but sure sounds like it is. Like (I hope) your daddy used to tell you, there ain't no free lunch.
Teddy, you have a long history of perpetual motion posts, although you keep insisting you're talking about something that isn't perpetual motion but sure sounds like it is. Like (I hope) your daddy used to tell you, there ain't no free lunch.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
> The energy stored in the condenser is lost when the points close & it goes to the ground.
No, that's not what happens. If there's any energy in the condensor when the points close again, it will be returned to the coil. And at the speeds our old tractors run, all energy in the coil and condensor is dissipated by resistance long before the points close. The oscilloscope screenshot Jim posted illustrates this very well.
No, that's not what happens. If there's any energy in the condensor when the points close again, it will be returned to the coil. And at the speeds our old tractors run, all energy in the coil and condensor is dissipated by resistance long before the points close. The oscilloscope screenshot Jim posted illustrates this very well.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
Going back memory lane, let's revisit some of your perpetual motion claims.
<a href="https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ttalk&th=887306">Teddy52Food. Re: Joe Newman's device</a>
<a href="https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=nboard&th=624376">OT Joe Newman</a>
<a href="https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=farmall&th=577093">Joe Newman</a>
The web never forgets.
<a href="https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ttalk&th=887306">Teddy52Food. Re: Joe Newman's device</a>
<a href="https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=nboard&th=624376">OT Joe Newman</a>
<a href="https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=farmall&th=577093">Joe Newman</a>
The web never forgets.
teddy52food
Well-known Member
If your mind is closed, you have to open it as I can't do it for you. His machine, Big Eureka was putting out around 7000 times the input. He hooked up a generator & made it self=running & was dead shortly after. Wonder why?????
Janicholson
Well-known Member
Take that little squiggle out of the primary ignition trace with 20 dollars of inverter electronics. It has maybe 10 ma of current, and you then change it to 14.5 volts to charge the battery. It is way upside down on the cost to create the technology to recover a negligable squeeek of energy. I agree it could be harnessed. What put it there in the first place? about 3500 times more energy when the points closed and the coil was saturated. The energy did not come from the wires, it came from the battery/charging system. Jim
Similar threads
We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.
Copyright © 1997-2024 Yesterday's Tractor Co.
All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.
Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters
Website Accessibility Policy