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This guy is pressing my buttons

F

flying belgian

Well-known Member
Up here in Mn. cutting and baling hyway ditches is a big thing. I run several farms along state hyway 14 so I bale those ditches. While I'm there I ask the adjoining land owners if I can bale theirs. Been doing some of them for 50 yrs. Between 6 of us we do everything from Mankato to Nicollet. About 8 miles. Now this year some new kid thinks we are getting rich so without asking anyone he comes in and starts mowing. When he did it on one of my farms I called him. You cut my ditch. He said he checked with the state and they said nobody owns the road ditch. The state owns it. I said I know, everybody knows that. But it's just common courtesy to ask the land owner as he may want it. He said -where is that written? It is not written it's just the way its been. So he convinces me to let him have a fourth of mine that he cut since I got the other 3/4 cut for free. Ok. Now yesterday he cut another 1/4 mile in front of one of my farms. I call him and said alright now I'm taking all the first piece you cut. He asked how come I didn't tell him that new piece was one of mine too. I said I'm not going to go up and down that hyway telling you who's is who's. The guy went nuts and I have to admit I raised my voice too. He has the whole neighborhood in an uproar.
 
Well, lots of things happening. Fifty year old "the way it's always been done" are OK but someone could argue "first come, first served" is better. I certainly see your point though. I've heard that a lot of farmers will not cut and bale ditch grass, too much crap in it.
 
Unfortunately, he is probably correct and within his rights to do what he is doing. Even though you have been cutting and baling it for many years, it still does not belong to you legally.

if I were in your place, I would sure be upset as you are. In my old neighborhood, we had something going on with parking. There were not enough spaces for all of the residents' cars. Each homeowner seemed to think that they owned the parking space in front of their house. The authorities said different. The street is public as are the parking spaces.

I suggest you try getting the laws changed or even try to get an agreement from the state for the maintenance of the ground in question. That would define who has rights to it and who does not. In the meantime, you can try to get it cut before the new guy when it is getting close to cutting time.
 
You must have some wide shallow ditches around my area you'd get a bunch of tree branches.If the state says first come first serve that's the way it is you know the old saying.
"Early cutter gets the ditch hay".
 
As I understand it, In Mont., the adjoining landowner has first rights to the hay, but he must carry
heavy liability ins.
 
(quoted from post at 14:43:14 08/03/19) Up here in Mn. cutting and baling hyway ditches is a big thing.
Click to expand...

Better to negotiate with the new guy and come to some sort of agreement/deal.
If it escalates to the point of anyone complaining to the road department, or worse gets the popo involved, the outcome will likely be not in your favor, his favor or anyone's favor.
 
It?s fought over around here. The ditches are generally well sloped and the state and county takes wide easements or right of ways. Thousands and thousands of bales of hay made around here from road ditches.

The state came up with some new rules on state highways a couple years ago. Think they put the new rules on hiatus for a while, as they were pretty silly?

I hadn?t realized until receintly that the state buys the land the state roads are on. So the kid is technically right, but it?s more complicated than that, and it has always been the landowner has the rights to the hay that came from their farm first. Pretty poor for him to be jumping in.

Country and townships are easements, the landowner still owns the land and should be under the land owners control.

Paul
 
Here is a link, but this stuff has been changing every 6 months for the past 3 years so don?t know what current.

https://www.dot.state.mn.us/mowing/faqs.html
MN hay
 
I cut ditch hay 1 time actually 2 my first n last time in 1 ,cost me more than it was worth,new 18.4x34 took a beer bottle dead center cut a big round hole in middle of tire.
Life is too short to be unhappy over this kinda thing
 
I do not know what MN DOT actually says. In Iowa you have to get permission from the state DOT to mow the ditch hay. You also can not do it before certain dates because of nesting birds. In Iowa the adjoining land owner has the right of first refusal. In our county the DOT makes anyone wanting to mow the ditches in front of land that others own, get a written permission from them. This for everything that is not limited access four lane highways. I would go talk to the MN DOT in person and find out what is actually the law.

Had a fellow pull one on me like this years ago. We had mowed/made the hay on this one farm for years. We paid the landlord for 50% of the hay at market valve. We fertilized and limed the ground. We did all the work. It was very good farm ground but the land owner want the field in hay. Well one year a fellow came in and talked the land owner into a per acre rent. Selling the land owner on the steady income. The trouble is the "rent" was lower than what we had been paying. The fellow "renting" the hay field did not even own any livestock and had to rent or borrow hay equipment to make the hay. This was when hay was not very high in price. Just the whole deal was kind of fishy. The second year the renter plowed the field under telling the landlord that the hay stand was not good enough to bail anymore. So it was planted into row crops. The renter told this tail or another for four years before there was hay in the field again. The landlord figured out real quick that the fellow wanted crop land not hay ground. We have rented the ground for 18 or 19 years since then. We have a written contract that states we will only crop the ground one year out of five for rotation purposes. Everyone seems happy as the Grand daughter is now the owner and signed the last contract for ten years.

I made it a point to talk to every land owner that the fellow rented ground from. Within several years they all found him cheating on the spoken rental agreements. He only farms his Mother's place now. No one locally will rent to him.
 
I lived in Mankato at one time but that was about 60 years ago. Still have family up that way so if you know any one with the last name of Marg you probably know some of my family
 

What I see here is that there are "the laws" and then there is also "the way things are done". The experienced guys know about the permits for the most part, but don't worry about them because good character and honesty trumps letter of the law. Here in NH a piece of hay ground will change hands now and then. If you have been doing the hay you will stop in and introduce yourself to the new owner and offer to explain the system, and 9 times out of ten things just continue on. The new landowner could perhaps know someone else in the town who makes hay and might in passing tell him that he could have the hay, but this other hay maker would say "well thank you but I can't because that is so and so's field". Or if you are asked to take over a field from someone else you would say well I have to talk to that fellow first. Everyone in the hay business knows that there is a lot involved the up-keep of the ground. This sort of system can of course be upset by someone who is unscrupulous, but this sort of person's behavior catches up with them soon.
 
I have seen farmers baling ditches while visiting up north.
Often wondered how you worked out who cuts what.

Is land that scarce up north you need to mess with road side trash (beer bottles) just to get some unfertilized hay????

I could picture you guys shooting one another if you had some river levees around you like we have here.



cvphoto32082.jpg
 
The right-of-ways must be a lot cleaner than they are here in NY. You couldn't give me ditch hay. Not even for bedding.
 
For every time you screw someone over you?ll get screwed ten times. might not be today might not be next week but you?ll get it . If that kid took something you?ve been doing that?s not right . And here the property owner owns the road to the center of the road
 
(quoted from post at 12:15:45 08/03/19) Here is a link, but this stuff has been changing every 6 months for the past 3 years so don?t know what current.

https://www.dot.state.mn.us/mowing/faqs.html
MN hay
Click to expand...

Paul I checked with the state this spring for my nephew. They more or less suspended the permit thing except on limit access and double divided. They were supposed to start charging for cutting the ditch grass. Bunch of farmers got mad and started to file lawsuits. Not about cutting. But about home owners who were mowing lawn clear out to the highway. They said if you are going to charge us and make us get permits then you have to charge them and make them get permits. They did not repeal anything. Just suspended it indefinitely. That was about 5 weeks ago when I contacted them.

Was the same way here for years. You mowed what fronted your property and then talked to other land owners. No legal requirement to do it. Just common courtesy. No legal recourse if someone does cut it without asking.

Rick
 
Since the ditch hay seems to be of some value looks like the reasonable way to solve the problem is for the state to get the people that want to cut the hay to place bids for the rights to cut said ditches from point A to point B and use the money to do road work.Then it'd be clear who had the rights to the hay.
 
I'm pretty sure in Ohio if you own road frontage you are paying the property taxes to the middle of the road. Good chance it is that way everywhere and that should give you some sort of right to the grass ?
 
I've been to your part of the country this time of year John. You have more dry ground on the levees than anywhere else! I went down near Lake Okeechobee today to shoot a Sporting Clays tournament and that part of Florida is not getting any wetter it's just getting deeper!!!! Lot of rain here the last few weeks.
 
(quoted from post at 15:53:32 08/03/19) I'm pretty sure in Ohio if you own road frontage you are paying the property taxes to the middle of the road. Good chance it is that way everywhere and that should give you some sort of right to the grass ?
Click to expand...

Nope, not here. Original place is 200 acres. Get taxed on 196 cause a state highway cuts through part of it.

Rick
 
If they let it out for bids the farmer would likely have to put all kinds of approved signage when mowing, raking and baling plus likely also have to have certified safety escorts front and back, and provide proof of commercial insurance. By the time a person complied to all that, it would become a money loosing proposition.------Loren
 
There is always someone who thinks they can move in on an age old gentleman?s agreement no mater what it is.

The reality of ditch hay is that it is the worst free hay You can put up. First you have to deal with all the litter, diapers, paper, styrofoam, bolt, tires, dead animals, beer bottles, and other hidden junk. After you make 2-3 passes you hope you don?t puncture a tire on all that junk or hidden culverts. The final product is a bale with all that junk in the bale. So you don?t dare grind it. Even if you feed it whole some dumb square nosed cow will eat it. Free hay isn?t worth fighting for. Principle yes. Ditch hay no.
 
In Texas the state owns the land all numbered highways are on. The Farm to Market Road in front of my house, they own a 100 foot wide strip. AFAIK they have to hire somebody to mow it a couple times a year. They definitely cannot mow until the BlueBonnets have made seeds.
 
Just finished combining my wheat for the season. Real disappointing yield. Anyway I just now read all your responses. So I will answer a few of your questions. When state hyway was built in 1936 they leased the land from the farmer. Then when they expanded to four lane 6 years ago they bought the right away. County, some is owned by farmer and some the county bought. and township farmer still owns to middle of road. Yes we are suppose to fill out a permit and provide certificate of insurance for one million dollars insurance which some years I do and some years I don't. We are encouraged to wait cutting until after pheasant hatch August first but as mentioned law never passed.
There are volunteer groups that go through ditch twice a year and pickup trash in exchange for a sign recognizing them. So the only real trash is beer cans and the baler usually tumbles them along until they finally roll off to the side. State roads are seeded with a alfalfa/clover/grass mix so it is real nice hay. I am baling and selling all the hay as I don't have any cattle or horses. Most everyone baling around here is selling it to horse people as there is no cattle for 30 mile around Mankato. Alfalfa is hard to raise around here as it is too humid and takes to long to dry down. The horse people don't want alfalfa anyway. They want grass and land right around Mankato is selling for 20,000-30,000/acre and renting for 250-350/.acre so you cannot afford to raise grass on it. I have built a quite a clientele over the years selling small squares of straw so since I have the hay equip anyway I put up 5 to 10 thousand bales of ditch and meadow hay a year. At $4.00/bale I do alright. Sell most right off the wagon so only have to handle once. If customer wants to pick off ground they save 50 cents bale. So, what do you think now?
 
I would say that you should get the hay by your ground. Everyone should fill out the paperwork to be fully legal. Since your selling the hay and more than likely he is too, then I would say first come first served on the hay on ground that is not by your farm. Your both just trying to make an extra buck. If you were needing the hay to feed I would feel a little different in favor of the fellow feeding it. Just selling it??? Whoever gets there first with the proper paperwork filled out.
 
There isn?t many glass bottles any more.

If you mow them once or twice a year they staypretty clean. With the strong winds the past couple years most trash blows into the first 12 rows of the fields.

Driving around this evening thinking of this thread, hard to see many ditches that are not hated off.

Paul
 
Thanks, that is how I mostly thought it had gone down.

Flying B is on mostly new 4 lane now, build a couple years ago from a 2 lane.

Paul
 
must be a lot different there than in West Virginia. All the ditch hay gotten there would have to be cut with hand shear clippers.
 
"They definitely cannot mow until the BlueBonnets have made seeds." You can thank Ladybird Johnson (Lyndon Johnson's wife) for that. I remember
when she got it passed in the state legislature.

On the 100' Fm-Mkt strip, back when Reagan was pres. and "simplified" things like tax laws............., cities would run out the highways in all directions and
annex those strips making their city large enough (X x Y equals area of the city...don't remember the numbers....8 miles comes to mind) to qualify for
federal (US taxpayer) funding to build city utilities, like wells for drinking water and septic systems. Since the citizen didn't own the land they didn't need
to call a special election to approve the annexation.

A second part of the Reagan doins was that the cities would get themselves a city police force and post ticket hungry radar cars out at the extremes of
the city limits to collect revenue. I do think he was one of our better Presidents however.
 
I have never seen any interstate highway where the right-of-way was ever harvested for hay.
That is 35 to 60 acres per mile on average of possible hay.
 
Well, FB, now that you have revealed the extent of your involvement, you have likely exposed the real issue. No doubt the local know-it-alls are sure you are baling 20K+ bales and getting $6 each for them with no cost of inputs. They see you making this $120K for free, and figure they have a right to its well. Which they kind of do, legally, if not conventionally. Heck, they probably have it figured out how you are getting paid to harvest the hay and sell it for your own profit, and get the equipment for free, too!

IF the state owns this property, as it appears is so, and it has a process to get the hay, you would need to follow that process. Otherwise, you have explained the situation to the other guy, told him how things used to work, but he has no binding reason to follow that convention. HE truly is first come-first bale. As some have suggested, the more the state gets involved, the less likely anyone can afford to do this anymore.

I'd suggest you do what you can to protect what you have harvested in the past by following whatever rules there may be. You'll have to be first to cut if there is no other rule. Talk to the other guy, it may make it easier to understand where he is coming from and how much of a threat he really is. He likely will get some of "your" land, but also isn't likely to keep it for long once he finds out how much work it is.

On a (hopefully) unrelated note, are you familiar with the Kettner family near there? They are shirt-tail relatives of my wife.
 
Kettners, yes. There are many around the Nicollet area. Nice people and well respected. One managed Nicollet Grain elevator for years. His name was Leon Kettner.
 

One of the most amusing calls an urban policeman makes is when a homeowner calls to complain that someone else parked in front of HIS house. People think that because they own the house they have first rights to park in the street in front. It is always a delight to tell them they are wrong, even if they have been routinely parking there for 100 years.

The state should prohibit any of you from profiting by taking the grass off. At least they should charge you a fee and it should be clear that it is first come, first served.
 
Anything profitable will eventually attract competitors. Maybe the state needs to assign "hay permits" like deer tags, or by lottery, or though sealed bids with the adjacent land owner having first refusal at the highest bid price.
 
I just had the mental image of the MN DNR or a county sheriff busting someone for baling ditch hay without a permit or during the nesting season, and then confiscating: the tractor; baler; another tractor with loader; several hay trailers and trucks, like they do with hunting and fishing violators. That kind of easy windfall would attract the local authority's scrutiny really fast, maybe delay property tax increases a little bit too.
 
(quoted from post at 13:51:57 08/04/19) That kind of easy windfall would attract the local authority's scrutiny really fast, maybe delay property tax increases a little bit too.
Click to expand...

HAHA! your sense of humor is awesome!! you crack me up....posting something as funny as to think governmental property theft will delay tax increases.lol
 
That's one of the things I love about YT, learning about different parts of the country. I had seen other states where farmers were baling the road sides so I wasn't totally unaware but it still makes me smile. Here, the state pays contractors (a lot) to bush hog and weed eat road sides. 3x per year. I don't think they do it often enough so I pay a girl 12 hrs a month to weed eat the road banks in front of the farm and mow the median and top of the bank every time I mow the yard. You're welcome to come do mine ;).
 
(quoted from post at 13:58:20 08/04/19)
(quoted from post at 13:51:57 08/04/19) That kind of easy windfall would attract the local authority's scrutiny really fast, maybe delay property tax increases a little bit too.
Click to expand...

HAHA! your sense of humor is awesome!! you crack me up....posting something as funny as to think governmental property theft will delay tax increases.lol
Click to expand...

Tlock, You are very rewarding of ss55's sense of humor!
 
I don't make hay anywhere, but I like to point out we have a bottle return law in Iowa that gives you back your nickle deposit and that for years has helped cut down on bottles in the grass a lot.

The big supermarket chains have fought renewals of the law, but lost.

Yet there is trash of all kinds out there.

What irks me is the grain haulers dumping what rattled down in the outlets on the way back north from Cedar Rapids. Check out I380, exit 55 northbound some time!

I must not have much to do if I have time to care! lol Leo
 
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