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Does anyone here have experience with solar panels

P

Philip d

Well-known Member
Our government has a 40% rebate program on them now.
Private windmills were a fad here 15 years ago but turned into
a flop because of reliability and less than 1/2 the estimated
power production, providers going bankrupt and so on. Solar
should be a better more reliable source is it not? No moving
parts and it doesn?t require winds to be productive. Are they a
worthwhile investment that will have a short payback
considering a 40% rebate or are they just the newest fad in
renewable energy that in a few years will be deemed an
expensive unreliable energy source? It seems solar panels
have been in use for many years surely they?re more efficient
than wind power? Thoughts? To keep it tractor related they
could go on the roof of our barn that we have tractors stored
in.
 
Depends on what you are getting paid for the electricity produced. Here in Ontario, government programs paid up to 88 cents per kwh under the green energy act for solar produced electricity. Many free standing 10kw panels went up, each around 100k dollars with a 20 year contract. Payback was in about7 or 8 years, with all expenses paid by the owner. So many went up that the capacity of the rural infrastructure was in danger of being overloaded. Then because of opposition the contract price was lowered to 40 odd cents, and no new contracts were awarded, also because supply exceeded demand. The panels themselves lost efficiency over the years, and some have been damaged by wind. Roof top panels were less popular because they could not track the sun resulting in lower output. They are more popular on new construction due to the engineering required to the roof structure.Study the market trends, what you are getting paid for and the lifespan of the unit. Most here are satisfied with the unit if they got the higher priced contract. None are being built anymore though. I'm sure b&d will have some good comments.

Ben
 
Philip, this is probably he worst place for your question. You will get a lot of naysayers replying whom have little or no experience with solar but very adamant opinions. There are however one or two folks who I'm sure will chime in with some useful replies. That being said, I've been off the grid for 30+ years (yeah I made a lot of mistakes along the way) two things make this possible: one, SOLAR PANELS, and two, extremely frugal use of electricity. Whether panels make sense for any one individual is hard to say as there are soooo many variables (siting, location, objectives, grid-tie, non-grid-tie, usage, recoup expectation, etc.) to take into consideration. Sorry I can't elaborate more at this moment, my ride's here, but I'll check back later and will happily answer any more detailed questions that might arise.

JD
 
Everyone I know that has installed them has been pleased, and the payback forecasts were accurate.
 
I have looked into them several times. The main thing is what your going to be paid back for the energy you produce. The numbers in my area make it to were the pay back is close to the life expectancy of the panels. Meaning most of the panels I see talk about a ten year life and the pay back is usually in the 8-9 years. I know that the panels will operate longer than ten years but the fellows with them around me are saying they produce a lot less energy as they age.

I would also look at the weather in your area. I really have not heard of Canada being a Sunny place to live. You can find the number of sunny days or cloudy one and see what that number is for your area.

Also look into the structural demand they need for roof mounting in your area. With you being further north they more than likely will need to be steeper than your current roof slope. So that means a bracket to tilt them up. This makes them more prone to wind damage. The majority of the ones going in are now being mounted on posts on the ground.

So far the numbers just are not attractive enough for me to put in a system. The only way solar or wind is even an option is with massive government subsidies and regulations. I know "new" things take time to stand on it own merits but I am not sure of the long term solution that wind and solar would provide. Also uneasy of that government assistance. How many strings will there be in the future???

I know my personal energy costs have gone UP because of the renewable energy requirements on the utility companies. They are spending millions/billions to put in solar and wind farms. all the while tearing out the coal fire plants and some natural gas ones. I think much of this is the greenies plan to drive energy cost higher so consumption is lowered without being concerned what the effect is on the average person or manufacturing in this country.

What I can show you is that all the personal size wind mills around here did not last the expected time. All of them are NOT generating any electric here anymore. One local farmer says his is one expensive bird perch. LOL

I would find someone in your local area that has a system that is at least 4-5 years old and asked them directly how it is working.
 

Solar panels contain cadmium. A cancer causing metal. If the solar panels get damaged by hail or other storm damage, steps need to be taken to prevent the cadmium from leaching into the soil.
 
Had breakfast with my buddy yesterday, he related a meeting with a salesman regarding land leases for some solar arrays. I was surprised they were siting an area far from a switchyard, but there must be other considerations. He said there was talk of $1K per acre per year lease payments, which would be reasonable considering it is currently fertile irrigated corn/bean/seed corn/vegetable ground. This was in regards to about 240 acres he owns that are part of a 360 acre field- he suggested them taking the whole piece, I imagine that would be up for negotiations.

The utility I work for operates a solar field nearby, 40 acres produces about 4.6 megawatts. The plant I work at, on 640 acres, produces over 2200 megawatts.
 
If we were to look deeper into the idea we wouldn?t be looking to produce power into the grid to try to make money. I say that because of infrastructure costs but we would be interested in reducing our grid usage by a large enough percentage to make it a wise investment with little risk.
 

Depends on your expectations .
Is this net metering or only sale of electricity while sale to the utility ?
Inverters do fail on occasion and require replacement $$$.
The amount of sun in a region does vary , around here is known as " Grey-Bruce " due to numerous shared Goverment agency offices used by both Grey and Bruce County . Also known as "Grey-Bruce" because the sun is rarely seen from November until March .
Solar panels near Sarnia and Sault Ste Marie have higher output per year than here . Around here fixed arrays average 4.1 Kw per day per 1.0Kw of panel over 365 days . Trackers average 6.1Kw hr per 1.0KW of PV panel per day.
In Ontario the rate payer is forced to pay between 40.0 to 80.2 cents per KWHr hr to solar , even when wholesale grid rates are only 1-2 cents Spring and fall or during weekends . Over a billion $$$ a year spent to subsidize the production of solar and wind power AND to PAY Michigan, Ohio and New York to take the excess power.
 
Beware of the "rebates".
Not all rebates being advertised by the sellers exist.
AFAIK, the federal rebate/tax break is valid.

But many other rebates/tax breaks from the state or utilities are dependent upon being renewed every year or the program being funded sufficiently to cover all of the installations.

I know in Florida the state rebate program has to be funded every year by the legislature. Even though the funds being used for the state rebate are actually extorted from the utilities and their customers.
So every year the fund runs out and some that thought they would get a rebate get put on an ever growing list of people waiting on their rebate.
So it might take several years to get your rebate if you get it at all.
 
Were in a similar situation with leased land to a windmill farm
in the way that the pay market is poor at the moment and
we?re paid on a percentage of the gross. If we are eligible for
a cost share grant to install panels with an end result being a
large portion of our used home energy is free is the goal we?re
interested in. At this point I don?t have high hopes of profiting
from excess sales back to the grid.
 
I see this a lot like the government investing to put railroads in, if the neighsayors had won, we would still be walking across the country.

We need a strong energy diversity.
 
"I see this a lot like the government investing to put railroads in, if the neighsayors had won, we would still be walking across the country."

Your statement is a big hit-and-miss, lately a big miss. Anybody here ever heard of the company called Solyndra? A little reading about this on Wiki will jog a few memories.
The person who was pushing a lot of these "green" companies had a dismal record in this area.
 
(quoted from post at 19:45:41 08/18/19) I see this a lot like the government investing to put railroads in, if the neighsayors had won, we would still be walking across the country.

We need a strong energy diversity.
Click to expand...
And two hundred years later, the railroad still relies on government welfare because it doesn't make a profit.
 
Ive had a ton of experience installing solar panels on RV's AND LOVE THEM AND WOULDNT BE WITHOUT THEM. However that's NOT quite the same as a home installation. In a home set up it depends on 1) How much is you average sun time where you live,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,2) What is your geographical location,,,,,,,,,,,,,3) Are they to be fixed mounted at the best angle to the southern sky,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,4) Is it to be grid tie or you going to add battery energy storage,,,,,,,,,,,5) If grid tie whats the rate the utility will allow you assuming its even allowed Is it net metering ???? Whats the initial cost ???? 6) Whats the cost of electricity where youre at???????????

See its NOT an easy simple one size fits all question but its sure worth looking at. Good luck. Ive been paying around 80 cents per watt for my panels. I currently have four on the RV roof for 1080 watts, I have a 2000/4000 Pure Sine Wave Inverter,,,,,,,,,,3 AGM Deep Cycle batteries of 520 Amp Hours,,,,,,,,,,An MPPT Solar Charge Controller.

John T Long retired n rusty Electrical Engineer so no warranty lol
 
Here's my story. I had 24 panels installed on my roof. With my compressor going, it's nice to see the meter putting power back into the system. Problem is I am not getting credit for it. I am getting credit for what I use, not the excess. My electric bill was what I pay for the loan on my panels. A little over 200.00 a month. I paid 9.00 last year for electricity, my panels made up the rest. I got around 7000,00 rebate. I thought I was getting a big fat check, is what the salesman said I would receive. How it works in California is, I get tax credit when I pay my taxes. I still get the 7K but not up front. Our electric co is always raising our rates. Mine should never go up. Now my tile roof leaks. Not bad, but a little over ne entry. They came out and did a repair but still a little leak. Stan
 
I think the Installer makes more money on solar panels than you. Useful life and return on investment are not guaranteed. Technology is also changing rapidly.
 
(quoted from post at 14:45:41 08/18/19) I see this a lot like the government investing to put railroads in, if the neighsayors had won, we would still be walking across the country.

We need a strong energy diversity.
Click to expand...

The railroad function day and night, summer and winter. By being the most economical and practical mode of transportation.
Your analogy of the railroad vs solar/wind power production does not apply. In fact it proves the fact that wind and solar are intermittent, unreliable , high priced sources of power that have to have backup systems .
Solar and wind only pay on remote utility grids where both baseload and peak power is provided by burning diesel fuel.
Take it from someone who is in the industry.
 
In my experience, my wife wasn't going to be happy until we had solar panels. Cost me $10k of a $27k system.
 
Philip: I was talking to a friend this afternoon about solar panels. He made this statement and it stuck with me: " Right now solar panel systems are just like you prepaying your electric bill tens years in advance". He is correct.

The organic dairy farm across the road has a system. They talk about how they "save" the cost of their month electric bill. They seem to skip the fact they spent $50K putting the system in. Even with the later tax credits your talking about a chunk of money laid out for the systems.


There is nothing else you use that you would do this on. So what makes solar/wind "special"???? Do you sleep better at night know your solar system is running???

I have also seen studies that show that are solar systems are not environmentally neutral if you look at the total picture starting with the manufacturing of the panels themselves.
 
He may very well be right JD,I remember the farm windmill craze and there was supposed to be a 10 yr break even point on a 50k investment. Most of them if not all only ran periodically the first 2 years ,they all are broken down now and no parts/service available. I?m not saying we?re not going to investigate but at the same time are going to remain skeptical unless it really seems to make sense.
 
We have a 30-panel 10,000 watt panel installation, with net metering and I have to say it exceeded my expectations. Been in operation for 10 months and almost 9000 kw-hrs so far. We are further north than Toronto and Madison WI.
 
I am from South Africa and went completely off grid 5 years ago. Installed a 10 kW system (10kw solar panels with 10kW inverter).Paid the system in 3.5 years and now having only some maintenance do be done such as the replacement of batteries. Batteries is the weakest link in the system.Lead acid batteries lifespan is about 48 months if managed well.
In the northern USA with a weaker sun and very cold winters such a system will be risky to implement.It will not be possible to heat your house in the winter from battery power.
My main costs were high fixed costs (line and maintenance cost from the supplier) and to replace some of the energy used daily didn't make financial sense. I had to go off grid. You on the other hand in a very cold climate, will not be able to generate 24/7 your own energy.
 

From what I see solar has to be done properly and under the right conditions. A long time friend, who is the same age as me, and a retired engineer recently put in a system himself with help from a third friend. He did his homework. He did not by a financed package. He is in northern NH where electricity is very expensive, and he sells excess to the utility at retail rate. The state gov't. just recently extended the net metering law. I find that I am spending more in the summer due to the need for more AC than we used to. Solar is no longer for southern latitudes only! While driving around I see a few solar systems where there are panels on both sides of a gable roof. What does this tell you? It tells me that solar system sales people urge people to have marginal systems installed that must have payback times that may be longer than the life of the system. My take is that solar power is here and totally cost effective but only if done right, and under the right conditions.
 

If solar panels were such a good thing, why not install them on the roofs of every house, condo, apartment buildings, shopping malls, etc., etc. Wouldn't even need to tie into a grid. Why turn our farmland into industrial, energy producing factories? Where are we going to grow the food needed to feed the world?
 
Not personal experiance but 2 towns close to me have there own solar fields and seen well satified, have talked about enlarging them. And have several big wind farms in 60 mile from me and have heard nothing bad about them. I have only heard of one turbine being taken down, that was on a farm that is now a shopping center. Would they rather see coal fired generating plants or necular? Seems most objection to them is people just do not like to see them. One belongs to local school system and is run only during school hours but somebody not knowing that would see it just setting a lot of the time.
 
I guess we are now saving the planet. The
nagging stopped so I presume she is
satisfied with our system. They are in the
back yard and kind of a pain to mow around.
I've though about putting sides around it
and making it into a garden shed.
 
(quoted from post at 06:03:01 08/19/19) Not personal experiance but 2 towns close to me have there own solar fields and seen well satified, have talked about enlarging them. And have several big wind farms in 60 mile from me and have heard nothing bad about them. I have only heard of one turbine being taken down, that was on a farm that is now a shopping center. Would they rather see coal fired generating plants or necular? Seems most objection to them is people just do not like to see them. One belongs to local school system and is run only during school hours but somebody not knowing that would see it just setting a lot of the time.
Click to expand...

Nuclear is absolutely the cleanest and most efficient means of generating electricity. They now have new technology that provides for a way to re-use the spent fuel rods until there is nothing left. NO hazardous materials to dispose of.
 
(quoted from post at 07:04:23 08/19/19)
(quoted from post at 06:03:01 08/19/19) Not personal experiance but 2 towns close to me have there own solar fields and seen well satified, have talked about enlarging them. And have several big wind farms in 60 mile from me and have heard nothing bad about them. I have only heard of one turbine being taken down, that was on a farm that is now a shopping center. Would they rather see coal fired generating plants or necular? Seems most objection to them is people just do not like to see them. One belongs to local school system and is run only during school hours but somebody not knowing that would see it just setting a lot of the time.
Click to expand...

Nuclear is absolutely the cleanest and most efficient means of generating electricity. They now have new technology that provides for a way to re-use the spent fuel rods until there is nothing left. NO hazardous materials to dispose of.
Click to expand...

Rusty, the problem with that technology is that the fuel rods made from the spent fuel are a lot more expensive than ones made from fresh uranium, so of course the cost of nuclear power would be driven up significantly, which makes it less attractive compared to other forms of generation.
 
Okay to address some of things posted in this thread:

First of all the OP was asking specifically about solar panels, conflating solar energy with wind energy is being a bit disingenuous and I think some you folks doing that know it. It's apples to oranges, about the only thing they have in common is they're both good for the planet!

Panels are very durable and most come with twenty year warranties (or longer). Just what does a warranty mean when talking about solar panels? The manufactures guaranty the panel will be putting out a certain percentage of their original rated output a given number of years from now. Generally this will be eighty percent at twenty or twenty-five years from now. So when their "lifespan" is "over" they're still going to be producing useful energy

Somebody mentioned cadmium, cadmium is used in a wide range of industries so that's kind of a moot point isn't it? Keep in mind that all the components of a solar panel can be recycled. I'm not aware of any company doing that presently, but rest assured that in thirty years when the current panels start being replaced somebody will figure out how to make a buck at it.

Invertors fail -yes they do! Mine failed less than two years after I installed it. Got it fixed under warranty. Hey Jimmydog put a lightning arrestor on it next time! Also the cost of invertors, just as panels, has been dropping significantly over the past ten years or so. Heck the very first solid state invertor I bought back in the early 80's cost 280$ and was only 400 watts! You could buy a bigger one than that now days for twenty bucks at about any auto parts store.

Who pays 100% up front for things....well houses and cars come to mind. Yeah I know loans yada yada. Just think of how much you could save if you did pay cash. Why should energy be any different? While I'm certainly not a fortune teller, one thing I think we can both can agree upon is that what you pay for utility supplied energy is not going to be the same in twenty years as you are today. Hmm wonder which way the price will go? My rate is for the most part fixed.

Not even environmentally neutral, what ever that means, seems like a pretty odd thing to say when comparing solar to coal or other fossil fuels. Doesn't it make sense that if we're going to have to mine we should mine stuff that doesn't involve releasing CO2 into the atmosphere to liberate the energy?

Solyndra? seriously? So what! One solar panel manufacturing company goes belly up, there's plenty of them out there doing just fine, making nice profits. Think of it like casinos, just because one guy can't make it work doesn't mean nobody can. Plenty of casinos out there turning nice profits too. And don't get me started on subsidies, what with the subsidies and tax breaks for the fossil fuel industries. I know some believe we just can't get by with out fossil fuels and for the present time we would have a hard time doing without them. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do everything possible to reduce our reliance on them. The evolution to green energy will not happen over night like flipping a switch or something it will be gradual and not nearly as painful as some of you seem to think. Oh and if there is something we definitely can't get by with out, it's an INHABITABLE PLANET.

Batteries are a significant part to the cost of an off-grid system. However my battery banks last 8-10 years. I'm on my second set right now and they need to be replaced, and this will probably be the last time I go with flooded lead acid. I expect that in ten more years with the rate of innovation we're seeing in the field I will be buying something superior by then. Oh and heating with electricity (resistive load) has got to be the most inefficient way to heat anything.

Philip, I think you kind of answered you own question when you say you're not trying to make a buck selling energy back to the utility company. I also gather you live north of me, while you may not gather as much light in the winter you will still get a respectable amount. I do. There is something called snow glare and boy it can really amp things up. Since you're not interested in off-grid you'll save some money there but I'm thinking your installation will involve some hoop jumping on the part of the grid tie-in. As for roof mounted; panels are most efficient when the sun's rays strike perpendicular to face of the panel. Most roof mounted are permanent placement so it makes sense to add extra capacity to compensate for the loss of seasonal efficiency.
If your roof is strong enough you could always add a movable racking system. You'll just have to climb up on the roof twice a year to change their position. Also snow will build up on them even sometimes when they're vertical. Since you're planning on not being 100% reliant on them, snow build up won't be the issue it is with me. I have my panels mounted on poles in the ground and occasionally go out and brush the snow off with a push broom. Interestingly enough it seems like every time they let me off the farm, I drive by places and see more and more solar installations, almost all of them on the ground. Well my fingers are starting to get tired. Philip, I think if you do your do diligence (careful design, reasonable expectation, do as much of the work as you are capable of yourself) you'll be pleased with the out come.

JD
 
(quoted from post at 08:20:48 08/18/19)
Solar panels contain cadmium. A cancer causing metal. If the solar panels get damaged by hail or other storm damage, steps need to be taken to prevent the cadmium from leaching into the soil.
Click to expand...

Rusty, while it is true that cadmium is harmful, you would have to grind the damaged panel up in order for there to be significant damage. Since available stocks of some of the rare elements in solar cells like gallium and indium are being depleted, any deteriorated or damaged cells will need to get recycled in order to have the materials to make more.
 
(quoted from post at 09:14:54 08/19/19)
(quoted from post at 07:04:23 08/19/19)
(quoted from post at 06:03:01 08/19/19) Not personal experiance but 2 towns close to me have there own solar fields and seen well satified, have talked about enlarging them. And have several big wind farms in 60 mile from me and have heard nothing bad about them. I have only heard of one turbine being taken down, that was on a farm that is now a shopping center. Would they rather see coal fired generating plants or necular? Seems most objection to them is people just do not like to see them. One belongs to local school system and is run only during school hours but somebody not knowing that would see it just setting a lot of the time.
Click to expand...

Nuclear is absolutely the cleanest and most efficient means of generating electricity. They now have new technology that provides for a way to re-use the spent fuel rods until there is nothing left. NO hazardous materials to dispose of.
Click to expand...

Rusty, the problem with that technology is that the fuel rods made from the spent fuel are a lot more expensive than ones made from fresh uranium, so of course the cost of nuclear power would be driven up significantly, which makes it less attractive compared to other forms of generation.
Click to expand...

Still cleaner and more efficient than either wind or solar.
 
(quoted from post at 09:18:27 08/19/19) Okay to address some of things posted in this thread:

First of all the OP was asking specifically about solar panels, conflating solar energy with wind energy is being a bit disingenuous and I think some you folks doing that know it. It's apples to oranges, about the only thing they have in common is they're both good for the planet!

Panels are very durable and most come with twenty year warranties (or longer). Just what does a warranty mean when talking about solar panels? The manufactures guaranty the panel will be putting out a certain percentage of their original rated output a given number of years from now. Generally this will be eighty percent at twenty or twenty-five years from now. So when their "lifespan" is "over" they're still going to be producing useful energy

Somebody mentioned cadmium, cadmium is used in a wide range of industries so that's kind of a moot point isn't it? Keep in mind that all the components of a solar panel can be recycled. I'm not aware of any company doing that presently, but rest assured that in thirty years when the current panels start being replaced somebody will figure out how to make a buck at it.

Invertors fail -yes they do! Mine failed less than two years after I installed it. Got it fixed under warranty. Hey Jimmydog put a lightning arrestor on it next time! Also the cost of invertors, just as panels, has been dropping significantly over the past ten years or so. Heck the very first solid state invertor I bought back in the early 80's cost 280$ and was only 400 watts! You could buy a bigger one than that now days for twenty bucks at about any auto parts store.

Who pays 100% up front for things....well houses and cars come to mind. Yeah I know loans yada yada. Just think of how much you could save if you did pay cash. Why should energy be any different? While I'm certainly not a fortune teller, one thing I think we can both can agree upon is that what you pay for utility supplied energy is not going to be the same in twenty years as you are today. Hmm wonder which way the price will go? My rate is for the most part fixed.

Not even environmentally neutral, what ever that means, seems like a pretty odd thing to say when comparing solar to coal or other fossil fuels. Doesn't it make sense that if we're going to have to mine we should mine stuff that doesn't involve releasing CO2 into the atmosphere to liberate the energy?

Solyndra? seriously? So what! One solar panel manufacturing company goes belly up, there's plenty of them out there doing just fine, making nice profits. Think of it like casinos, just because one guy can't make it work doesn't mean nobody can. Plenty of casinos out there turning nice profits too. And don't get me started on subsidies, what with the subsidies and tax breaks for the fossil fuel industries. I know some believe we just can't get by with out fossil fuels and for the present time we would have a hard time doing without them. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do everything possible to reduce our reliance on them. The evolution to green energy will not happen over night like flipping a switch or something it will be gradual and not nearly as painful as some of you seem to think. Oh and if there is something we definitely can't get by with out, it's an INHABITABLE PLANET.

Batteries are a significant part to the cost of an off-grid system. However my battery banks last 8-10 years. I'm on my second set right now and they need to be replaced, and this will probably be the last time I go with flooded lead acid. I expect that in ten more years with the rate of innovation we're seeing in the field I will be buying something superior by then. Oh and heating with electricity (resistive load) has got to be the most inefficient way to heat anything.

Philip, I think you kind of answered you own question when you say you're not trying to make a buck selling energy back to the utility company. I also gather you live north of me, while you may not gather as much light in the winter you will still get a respectable amount. I do. There is something called snow glare and boy it can really amp things up. Since you're not interested in off-grid you'll save some money there but I'm thinking your installation will involve some hoop jumping on the part of the grid tie-in. As for roof mounted; panels are most efficient when the sun's rays strike perpendicular to face of the panel. Most roof mounted are permanent placement so it makes sense to add extra capacity to compensate for the loss of seasonal efficiency.
If your roof is strong enough you could always add a movable racking system. You'll just have to climb up on the roof twice a year to change their position. Also snow will build up on them even sometimes when they're vertical. Since you're planning on not being 100% reliant on them, snow build up won't be the issue it is with me. I have my panels mounted on poles in the ground and occasionally go out and brush the snow off with a push broom. Interestingly enough it seems like every time they let me off the farm, I drive by places and see more and more solar installations, almost all of them on the ground. Well my fingers are starting to get tired. Philip, I think if you do your do diligence (careful design, reasonable expectation, do as much of the work as you are capable of yourself) you'll be pleased with the out come.

JD
Click to expand...
No. We are comparing alternative energy sources to proven, time tested and reliable sources of energy. Sources that DO NOT require thousands of acres of valuable crop land in order to function. If you want to place a solar panel or wind turbine in your own backyard, where it will be noticed by only you, then go for it, but it will never pay for itself.
 
(quoted from post at 09:41:34 08/19/19)
(quoted from post at 08:20:48 08/18/19)
Solar panels contain cadmium. A cancer causing metal. If the solar panels get damaged by hail or other storm damage, steps need to be taken to prevent the cadmium from leaching into the soil.
Click to expand...

Rusty, while it is true that cadmium is harmful, you would have to grind the damaged panel up in order for there to be significant damage. Since available stocks of some of the rare elements in solar cells like gallium and indium are being depleted, any deteriorated or damaged cells will need to get recycled in order to have the materials to make more.
Click to expand...

But are they recycled? Or are the damaged panels just left there?
 
(quoted from post at 15:45:36 08/19/19)
(quoted from post at 09:18:27 08/19/19) Okay to address some of things posted in this thread:

First of all the OP was asking specifically about solar panels, conflating solar energy with wind energy is being a bit disingenuous and I think some you folks doing that know it. It's apples to oranges, about the only thing they have in common is they're both good for the planet!

Panels are very durable and most come with twenty year warranties (or longer). Just what does a warranty mean when talking about solar panels? The manufactures guaranty the panel will be putting out a certain percentage of their original rated output a given number of years from now. Generally this will be eighty percent at twenty or twenty-five years from now. So when their "lifespan" is "over" they're still going to be producing useful energy

Somebody mentioned cadmium, cadmium is used in a wide range of industries so that's kind of a moot point isn't it? Keep in mind that all the components of a solar panel can be recycled. I'm not aware of any company doing that presently, but rest assured that in thirty years when the current panels start being replaced somebody will figure out how to make a buck at it.

Invertors fail -yes they do! Mine failed less than two years after I installed it. Got it fixed under warranty. Hey Jimmydog put a lightning arrestor on it next time! Also the cost of invertors, just as panels, has been dropping significantly over the past ten years or so. Heck the very first solid state invertor I bought back in the early 80's cost 280$ and was only 400 watts! You could buy a bigger one than that now days for twenty bucks at about any auto parts store.

Who pays 100% up front for things....well houses and cars come to mind. Yeah I know loans yada yada. Just think of how much you could save if you did pay cash. Why should energy be any different? While I'm certainly not a fortune teller, one thing I think we can both can agree upon is that what you pay for utility supplied energy is not going to be the same in twenty years as you are today. Hmm wonder which way the price will go? My rate is for the most part fixed.

Not even environmentally neutral, what ever that means, seems like a pretty odd thing to say when comparing solar to coal or other fossil fuels. Doesn't it make sense that if we're going to have to mine we should mine stuff that doesn't involve releasing CO2 into the atmosphere to liberate the energy?

Solyndra? seriously? So what! One solar panel manufacturing company goes belly up, there's plenty of them out there doing just fine, making nice profits. Think of it like casinos, just because one guy can't make it work doesn't mean nobody can. Plenty of casinos out there turning nice profits too. And don't get me started on subsidies, what with the subsidies and tax breaks for the fossil fuel industries. I know some believe we just can't get by with out fossil fuels and for the present time we would have a hard time doing without them. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do everything possible to reduce our reliance on them. The evolution to green energy will not happen over night like flipping a switch or something it will be gradual and not nearly as painful as some of you seem to think. Oh and if there is something we definitely can't get by with out, it's an INHABITABLE PLANET.

Batteries are a significant part to the cost of an off-grid system. However my battery banks last 8-10 years. I'm on my second set right now and they need to be replaced, and this will probably be the last time I go with flooded lead acid. I expect that in ten more years with the rate of innovation we're seeing in the field I will be buying something superior by then. Oh and heating with electricity (resistive load) has got to be the most inefficient way to heat anything.

Philip, I think you kind of answered you own question when you say you're not trying to make a buck selling energy back to the utility company. I also gather you live north of me, while you may not gather as much light in the winter you will still get a respectable amount. I do. There is something called snow glare and boy it can really amp things up. Since you're not interested in off-grid you'll save some money there but I'm thinking your installation will involve some hoop jumping on the part of the grid tie-in. As for roof mounted; panels are most efficient when the sun's rays strike perpendicular to face of the panel. Most roof mounted are permanent placement so it makes sense to add extra capacity to compensate for the loss of seasonal efficiency.
If your roof is strong enough you could always add a movable racking system. You'll just have to climb up on the roof twice a year to change their position. Also snow will build up on them even sometimes when they're vertical. Since you're planning on not being 100% reliant on them, snow build up won't be the issue it is with me. I have my panels mounted on poles in the ground and occasionally go out and brush the snow off with a push broom. Interestingly enough it seems like every time they let me off the farm, I drive by places and see more and more solar installations, almost all of them on the ground. Well my fingers are starting to get tired. Philip, I think if you do your do diligence (careful design, reasonable expectation, do as much of the work as you are capable of yourself) you'll be pleased with the out come.

JD
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No. We are comparing alternative energy sources to proven, time tested and reliable sources of energy. Sources that DO NOT require thousands of acres of valuable crop land in order to function. If you want to place a solar panel or wind turbine in your own backyard, where it will be noticed by only you, then go for it, but it will never pay for itself.
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I agree. If someone wants to foot the bill themselves, go for it. The problem is that a lot of this is based on a lie. Look at the OP- "The gov't is giving us a rebate." No, the gov't isn't giving you a rebate. The gov't is taking our tax dollars and supporting an industry that can't survive without it's support. It's a bribe to get consumers to buy something and the gov't underwrites the cost with money that could better be spent on any number of things, or better, left in the pockets of the tax payer. Lets remember Solyndra was one of dozens of failed "green energy" companies that bilked the US tax payer out of billions of dollars. Saying, "So what?!" is why we have the problems in the deficit and debt we have now. You know the old saw- "A billion here, a billion there, before long you're taking real money!"

You want to put you own money into a solar array, have at and good for you! You want me and everyone else to pay for it? Forget it.
 
(quoted from post at 11:40:23 08/19/19)
(quoted from post at 09:14:54 08/19/19)
(quoted from post at 07:04:23 08/19/19)
(quoted from post at 06:03:01 08/19/19) Not personal experiance but 2 towns close to me have there own solar fields and seen well satified, have talked about enlarging them. And have several big wind farms in 60 mile from me and have heard nothing bad about them. I have only heard of one turbine being taken down, that was on a farm that is now a shopping center. Would they rather see coal fired generating plants or necular? Seems most objection to them is people just do not like to see them. One belongs to local school system and is run only during school hours but somebody not knowing that would see it just setting a lot of the time.
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Yeah rusty, once you figure out what to do with all the waste. Once we start paying for taking care of what has been accumulating
Nuclear is absolutely the cleanest and most efficient means of generating electricity. They now have new technology that provides for a way to re-use the spent fuel rods until there is nothing left. NO hazardous materials to dispose of.
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Rusty, the problem with that technology is that the fuel rods made from the spent fuel are a lot more expensive than ones made from fresh uranium, so of course the cost of nuclear power would be driven up significantly, which makes it less attractive compared to other forms of generation.
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Still cleaner and more efficient than either wind or solar.
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Well rusty, clean to me does not include thousands of rusty barrels of nuclear waste. Once the picture is complete and the time bomb is dismantled maybe then it can be called clean.
 
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