downer cows

The USDA just banned downers from the food supply. I have to agree with Vilsack when he said it is "a step foreward for both food safety and humane treatment of animals". I believe more videos of Chino type operations, or if someone dies from made cow disease, we cattle growers will not like the legislative results.

This legistation has nothing to do with Mad Cow Disease. It is simply political posturing... and has nothing to do with safety or humane issues..

Sorry to disagree with you but this is a "feel good" law...

This will be a terrible burdon producers that now have nowhere to go with downers...

Where do you recommend they go?

Don't forget, a cow with a broken leg (not a disease) would still be considered a downer cow.

We have a friend who had a cow break a front leg. He couldn't take it to the butcher, even for his own consumption. He works with a good, small butcher shop. The owner came out and gave him pointers on how to go about butchering the cow. Nevertheless it was one h--- of a lot of work to do without notice using nothing but a loader.

Unfortunately, thinking people are not usually the ones who make laws in this country.

Christopher

I don't know what the answer is, but I've seen both sides of it. I've seen some VERY sick animals go to slaughter, ones that in no way should've entered the food chain. On the other hand, I've seen perfectly healthy cattle get loaded, and by the time they get to yard, have a broken leg or something similar. In cases like this, I have no problem with the animal being handled properly and being took to slaughter. It's a shame we seem to have no common sense laws anymore...

Videos like the one below shows the treatment of downers. It is an industry wide problem that will require more regulatory laws to be enacted.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhlhSQ5z4V4

Just another video revealing the problem of downers.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kok4ADtRM8g&feature=channel

I agree with you 100%. There's nothing I can add.

The people who make the laws may have good intentions but its just too bad that they have never had to work in the industry to get an understanding of what happens.

I didn't download the video, don't need to, I've seen the good, bad and ugly of the industry, however I take exception of your statement the your cut'n paste video shows "the treatment of downers" For years in production, transport, and consumption mostly I've seen good...

This is AN employee at A facility.... And what regulatory law could possibly be enacted that has compliance industrywide?

The plants that have an issue, need to deal with the INDIVIDUAL... not enact unenforceable "regulatory laws" that will have nothing to do with the employee problem...

Like I said, I've been there/seen that and had the issue delt with regarding the employee... That's how it's handled, NOT laws that do absolutely NOTHING for food safety, or humane issues.

I have been in the livestock industry for 36 years, I'm 36 years old, and I can say with confidence that the USA has the SAFEST, most humane food supply in the WORLD, and I've seen the feedlots in Spain, Portugal ect... If these laws make you feel better after finding that video, GFY, but don't think for a second that your food is safer!

OK, sorry GFY can mean 2 things, I meant GOOD FOR YOU, not the other...

So you shoot a deer during deer season, and you break its back with a shot that is a little off. Is that a downer deer?

Gene

Just a few comments. I have seen lots of cattle with broken legs, none have stayed down. Any animal we get with a broken leg goes on grain and is finished for our consumption. Never had a butcher refuse on. That story about a friend that had a cow that couldn't be processed cannot be true and should be disreguarded. This wasn't even announced till today. As for the "act of just one individual" nonsence, the company picked him and had a duty to supervise him and is responsible for his actions. Even if you disagree with that "the act of one employee" got that plant in Chino shut down and its owners in bankruptcy (please don't blame this president for that, it, along with the horse slaughter ban, happened under the last one).
As a producer it is my job not to have downers, but when I do they meet with a 223 slug and are placed in the tree rows to feed the coyote pack. I wouldn't let downer (or a sick one) leave the place and go to the packing plant or sale ring, my reputation is to important to me. I would not consider a deer I shot a downer any more than I would consider a cow that met with a captive bolt a downer. I would consider a pheasant or duck I shot a downer, and I do that a lot. This is the law of the land and I support it, not much chance we will go back. I fear those that think downers belong in the food supply will look silly when they make that argument. Perhaps you will be able to sell it if it is disclosed "meat in this package comes from a downer animal". If so let me know how that works out for you. Finally, how the Europeans behave has never been the standard for how I think Americans sould behave. But you are free to admire them if you want to.

Your attempt to misquote my post is interesting, I didn't say "one employee" I said "AN employee" but if you must change my post, and put it in quotes, GFY.

So should we regulate carrying a firearm at the post office? or maybe make it illegal to shoot post office employees? News flash for you in ND...there are laws already,when the law is violated, there are consequences...Is the post office responsible for the actions of employees who go postal? They picked him...

I don't think that calling Chris in Missouri a liar without any facts is kosher either, he said he has a friend that this happened to, maybeso, maybenot, but I digress...why disregard that as a lie????

I didn't blame any president for this, I only said it was political posturing, and meant to make people feel good...evidently it worked on you...I'd like to know who is going to define "downer"? Could you???

As a producer you have to realize that your industry may be very different than others, I will guess that you raise beef, if that is true, then you have little to no experience with ketosis. feel free to look it up.

There is a very large agriculture related world out there, and your slice is not indacitve of the entire industry, be careful what regulations you side with... the next one might be someone wanting to regulate yours...and you wouldn't want those of us who don't understand your industry to be complacent. since we don't have an abundance of Coyote here, maybe I would not mind if there was a ban on coyote harvest, or feeding for that matter...By gawd what would you do with your downers then?

BTW, who said anything about Europe?

If you support the labeling of every package of product, who will be deciding the definition of downer??

(see how easy it is to misquote you wanting to label every package?)

Perhaps I owe the other Chris an appology, but my point was whatever was announced today will not take effect for mouths and had nothing to do with his friend trying to get the cow slaughtered.

Don't know what to make of your Coyote feeding ban. Guess I will but up a sign that says "Coyote don't eat the dead cow! Mountian lion, fox, badger and racoon have at it)". My neighbor is gonna be in big trouble cause he feeds sheep to coyotes all the time. Furthermore, a ban on shooting the postman wouldn't hamper my lifestyle much.

Actually this is not a new. A slaughter ban on downers already exists but there is an exemption that allows a cow to be slaughtered if it goes down after it passes initial inspection and a vet says it is ok. This gets rid of that exemption. So, downers is a concept already in play and presents none of the defination problems you worry about. Beef cattle is what I do. I am proud of my product and am happy to have it labeled for what it is. If someone is proud of their downers fine, just label it so and see how the consumers react. I have no fear of informed consumers, do you?

I am not sure if you oppose all food safety regulation or just believe that sick cattle present no health risks, either to humans or other animals they may come in contact with in transit. To be blunt, I dont want some trailer to haul a cow sick with bovine TB to the packing plant only to have that same trailer haul cows to summer pasture later that day. I don't like moving around sick animals around, but you can feel different. Similarly, do you think the owners of that plant in Chino did not get held responsible for the conduct of AN employee and experience the consiquences ? Perhaps if there was a flat out downer ban it never would have happened.

Don't worry about my feeder calfs, they are on hay and grain is gradually introduced. About the Europe you said no one else brought up, Marc Mi brought up conditions in Spain, Portugal ect, as being worse than here. That is Europe.

Had a cousin with the same type of problem. All the processors were worried about fever(infection) being in the meat. They would not take it.

It was already against the law to take a downer cow.If it could'nt walk on its own power it was a downer.

You still are not looking any further than your own part of the industry, just as the other poster said. You evidently don't understand that for those of us in the dairy end of things, having a cow considered a downer does not make it sick, let alone make anything wrong with the meat from that animal. Yes you can have downer cows that are sick and there could be problems with the safety of that meat, but we have more that are the exact opposite. Cows get all sorts of ailments that make them unable to get up or to weak to stand. Like a fresh cow after a hard birth that never gets up again, is her meat unfit to eat? Or the cow that has a DA and has lost so much stregth she can't get up? Or the cow that slips on frozen or wet cement and breaks or rips something? There are 10 times as many cows that go down with something that has no effect on meat quality as there are the ones that have some illness or ailment that makes them unfit to eat. So your support of blanket regulations screw us out of a perfectly reasonable revenue source.

You call it a "feel good" law. have you stopped to think where your beef ends up, if it is exported then maybe these are a requirement of that country before they will accept your beef, I'm surprised you are allowed to sell them,out here you can't take a sick or injured animal to the saleyards,if you do they won't be sold, you're in trouble. we also have "property identification" which means any beef can be traced back to the property of it's birth . This is the price to pay if you export and these ideas are hatched from without.

I think us in the beef industry have to be sensible and think of ourselves as food producers first but I hate these blanket laws, I agree with ya Marc.

I've worked the slaugtor houses. where downers where taken. And have seen the inspections. don't see what is wrong with using the meat. Most of the cows had a broken bones. Yes moving them was a problem. But 1500lbs of anything is hard to move. The good thing, is life wasn't prolonged for a downer. We took care of it right away.

Too many people falling for the fake evidence presented by the vegetarians.

Have you ever tried to move a 1800 lb holstein without using a piece of equipment? It does not work. alot of you people see videos and think ALL farmers are inhumane with our animals.You are wrong. How else do you move a down cow? Or should we just let them lay there and suffer. I guess we cant make everyone happy.

I agree,still not seeing the big picture...Maybe my coyote comparison was to weak to connect...try this, I'll use barbed wire...

HSUS sends pictures to a politician of an animal that has been cut up real bad in b.w, says "we need legislation to BAN this practice, it's cruel and outdated..."

Then the 20/20 expose shows america a 60 minute feature on how unthinkable it is to allow these horrid practices, innocent animals are SUFFERING across the entire country everyday, The people that use b.w are painted as not caring about the welfare of their stock. (while most viewers have never been to a farm/ranch and sit at home agreeing)

The politician goes to capitol hill and has gathered many hours of video, and thousands of photos of animals tangled, and the aftermath of the injuries... after seeing the "evidence" many other lawmakers join in the fiasco...

Meanwhile those of us who don't use barbed wire take your approach, (hey, I don't need the stuff, why should I care...Sure, ban the wire)

Meanwhile Chris in ND is wondering "why the he!! can't the other producers see what is going on here? Surely they understand MY situation, thousands of acres, electric may not be possible, without the barbed wire my cows will be all over the place..."

Now the commitee to research this asks their "experts" (other farmers) in the industry (farming) their opinion... depending on the outcome they are looking for, maybe they ask hog producers, (who don't care)Poultry farmers (also dont' need it) and the report indicates that a high percentage of "industry experts" agree, barbed wire is neandrethal, and should go...

Months later Chris is visited by the BLM, advising him that his spread is in violation of the new legislation...He wonders how did this happen?

I really have enjoyed our chat here, but surely you can see how things aren't always as simple as they seem.

Your statements implying that I support sick, and diseased animals in the marketplace is insane, I think that anyone following the thread can see through that...I just think that "downers" is a general term that will cause a lot of financial losses, and discard tons and tons of usable product, while you may only come across this issue on occasion, there is the big picture.

BTW, I am still on the side of logic, when they come to take your barbed wire, I'll be there for you!!!

If No one has gave the Cow MEDS ...They do make good HAMBurger...It is easy to see how SOME DAY THIS COUNTRY AND THE WORLD ARE GOING TO STARVE TO DEATH

I guess banning downers from the human food supply is splitting hairs. A sick downer should not go for human consumption, makes sense, But I would think a anmial with a DA,or injured leg would be ok. Yes any down anmial is hard to move, but I think people have to move it as humanly as possibly, you cant beat the he$$ out of it. Any way if they cant go into the food supply, rather than wasting it, couldent it go for pet food? or do they? just my thoughts

Jay ever wonder how much infection might be in the cows you said would be ok ???





MAY GOD BLESS THE USA

I understand that, I think you would be able to tell, so if the cow was sick you dont use it for food. If a perfectly good cow breakes something and you know it, than it should be fine for beef. I think one guy on here said, any cow like that, he has butchered for himself.

I thought that downers were already banned. The slaughter house we use has signs up that say they will not accept animals that can't walk on their own, and the signs are not new.

Wesley you are correct. But there has been an exemption that says if an animal goes down after that animal is inspected and a vet gives the ok it can be slaughtered and enter the food market. This encourages producers to move their sick cows to the killer market before they become downers, often the stress of transport us enough to do it. I have seen down, sick, almost dead cows that were zapped and wipped untill they got out of the tailer and crossed the line at the plant and fell down again. I am not sure how the guys that have downers on their farms are getting them into the packing plants, or maby I do. I think the guys that are defending using downers are missing the big picture. Nowdays everybody has a digital camera or a video cam and they are just waiting for some idiot to abuse a cow and put it on the internet, and it is getting easier all the time to identify disease outbreaks and trace them to the source. All of this causes consumer revolt against the beef industry and encourages even worse legislation. As others have indicated it is to bad we cattle producers and processors couldn't have figured this out ourselfs, but we didn't and now we have a law.

Chris your right, stuff like that, zapping a cow to get into the plant is unacctable, I dont care who you are. It really gives a black eye to the industry.

Same tactic as the gun haters use.And people keep falling for the same old lies.

As many reasons as there are for a cow to be down, it seems more logical for the veterinarian on duty to make the call as to whether it is safe to eat or not.

I decided to post another reply in the interest of peace.

My friend's cow went down after an ice storm a little over a year ago. He did not intend to sell this cow retail, but he didn't want to waste the beef. I don't know whether it was a federal or state regulation which prevented the butcher from accepting the cow. It could be the butcher's idea. Again, I don't know. I didn't think to ask about it at the time.

I take a number of hogs each year, as well as some lambs to a different butcher (who is much closer to our farm). My wife sells the meat by the pound to her egg customers and at farmers' market. My kids are actually raising a couple of bottle calves (Holstein cross) this year, the meat from which they hope to sell at farmers' market sometime next year. My butcher is very upfront about the fact that he will NOT ACCEPT ANY animals which cannot walk off the trailer by themselves.

I understand the need of people in large metropolitan areas to feel that their food supply is safe. Personally, I'd rather buy direct from the farmer/rancher than a grocery store. But I guess some people see things differently. I used to see nothing wrong with grocery store meat until we started raising our own.

The point of my earlier post was that blanket regulations on a national level WILL have consequences. People will be disadvantaged and even hurt. Not just rancher/farmers (and yes, even feedlot operators) but also consumers. Think of the folks on limited budgets. Ground beef is obviously...uhh....I can't think of a kind way to say this......something people with less money can afford. I should know. The reason we started raising hogs was the ever escalating price of meat in the grocery store. If you shrink the supply of ground beef type animals, you WILL raise the price of ground beef. I'm not suggesting diseased animals should be consumed by people. However, before blanket regulations are enacted, folks should really think about what they are doing.

I hope this reply contributes something of substance to the disussion.

Christopher