responsibility/liability ????

Hey folks,
Just like to get your opinions on an issue we encountered the other day...

We sell horses, cats, and dogs sometimes at or shortly after birth. Obviously, they can't leave yet, so in the contract we stipulate that in the case of sickness, injury, or death while in our control that we will make things right by refunding all or a portion of money/cancel contract IAW the buyer's wishes.
We also bought 3 mares in the States over the last couple of years and and the sellers (3 different ones) all put this in the contracts as well (until loaded and sighned for by transporter).

Just sent an inquiry about another horse (baby) and was told that we'd have to take out insurance because once we paid it will be ours and they would not be responsible.

That would make me responsible for these folks' carelessness, bad fences, and general dangerous conditions and bad husbandry. Makes me question the credibility of the seller.

Same would apply to a tractor or piece of equipment that would be paid for and picked up later.

Am I looking at things wrong?

Dave

My opinion is that once they get your money, they're not giving it back no matter what. All the burden is instantly shifted into your hands. Beware! This guy is not stupid. He is strictly business. No ethics what so ever. If something happens, you get your money from the insurance company. It's kind of like the saying "Grab the money, & Run". Personally, I wouldn't do any business with them. It sounds one sided. They could care less about you, once they get your money. That's one of the problems in todays world. The way you are use to doing busness, is the way I've always known it to be.

It appears that the seller has experienced bad dealings with other custoemers in the past and is covering his rear with an iron clad protection contract. Maybe it was his fault and maybe out of his control but at any rate he wants protection from furhter liability. Look for references and BBB complaints before doing business with him.

Dave: It's been my experience, whether it be livestock or equipment, you have a truck for hauling right there the minute you lay your money down. There has just never been enough profit in this farming business to fight over liability after the fact.

It also can be two sided. In my home town we had a cattle buyer, would come and buy cattle, pay for them and truck would be by to pick the animal up in a few days. In some cases he left them for months, especially where he knew the would be well fed. Folks generally growled about him, and how he managed to get a extra hundred lbs. out of the vendor. Profits being what they were, no one ever did any more than growl. As a young farmer, I knew this about him. One day he showed up, bought a cow, paid me, and his truck would be along in a few days. A week went by, and one morning, blizzard conditions I called the guy, told him that by noon his cow was going out the door. His truck arrived at 11AM. I sold him the cow because I needed the room, who's cow should I kick the door in a blizzard.

Cash and truck go hand in hand, whether your buyer or seller.

(quoted from post at 03:36:33 05/29/09)
Cash and truck go hand in hand, whether your buyer or seller.

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We don't have that option because we have to have a closed deal (BOS, etc) prior to arranging pickup and expect to pay boarding fees from the time animal is weaned to being picked up.

Horse owners can be a breed all their own not like cattle or dog owners not all but a good enough segment that every base has to be covered.
So I can see why the fellow would have a contract like you described.Do you know the seller?

A demand for me to get insurance would give me pause as well. Perhaps it is just a case of once burned, twice shy. But I certainly don't like the feel of it.

Unless they were a breed I absolutely had to have, and couldn't get anywhere else, I'd stop and not buy.

Well....stop and think about it a minute.

As a dealer in any commodity...livestock, automobiles, real estate, food, etc., the gist of the business is to SELL the goods, get them out the door and replace the inventory and keep things moving. You cannot become a storage center for sold goods. After all, the goods are SOLD and belong to the buyer.

Obviously, if the buyer/seller is at point A and you are at point B, some acknowledgment of the distance must be taken into consideration before the sale is completed and arrangements made......as in; you have 5, 10 or 30 days to pick up the goods. This should all be taken care of during the sales negotiations.

However, unless you make additional agreements on the health and welfare of a live critter after the sale, once the cash passes hands......it becomes yours to insure and/or take the losses should the critter become sick or die. The seller cannot be expected to become a wet nurse for your property until you find time to come get it.

You have to look at this on both sides of the coin. It protects you if you are the seller/dealer. If you are the buyer, it prompts you to retrieve your property and get it home where you can care for it.

And as to your question about this particular seller......the minute I felt uneasy when negotiating a sale, I'd walk. Anytime a seller takes the high road and becomes an arrogant a$$, he gets to keep whatever he has and I move on to the next vendor, usually after I have told him to ram his goods up his personality hole.

(quoted from post at 04:08:50 05/29/09) .Do you know the seller?

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No, we don't even see the animal until we pick it up in Luxemburg. Trust is a big factor along with pedigree and pictures. Needless to say, the trust factor is gone and no getting it back. We won't be buy from that person.

Dave

I agree. I recently made an oral agreement to buy an old truck but the guy needed to drive it a couple of weeks yet and take the hitch out of the bed. When it broke after 6 weeks he said I could come get it but if I wanted it fixed I would have to pay the shop for it. It was to be a parts truck anyway so I went ahead and bought it with the broken part on it. He then wanted my to give him his hitch back if I ever took it apart even though he had 6 weeks to do it. I don't think so.

By the way, he deals in horses and I doubt like heck if I agreed to sell him a horsey and then it came up lame he would ever pay the full amount or the vet bill too before the money changed hands.

Too many times people want to buy something and then use your farm for storage for free. That is a kind deal to take care of an animal for a while but too much risk for me for someone who may take forever to come get it.

Dave,We raise and sell horses.Lets say you look at our horses either in person or online etc.If you choose a horse, we consider it to be sold when we have received a downpayment and a written contract which stipulates that you will insure your horse, has been signed.Young horses in particular are flighty animals prone to injury.If your new horse trys to run through a fence before you can pick it up, that is now the insurers problem.Also if someone comes to view our horses, your horse is not for sale, period.No matter if this buyer is prepared to pay far more than we agreed you would pay(it happens).We believe that insurance protects the interests of both buyer and seller. Best of luck with your new horses.

I think your sale terms are the exception, not the rule. I've never, ever not seen a contract including the ones I use that didnt either say at time of sale it is the purchasers sole responsibility. If I hold property or livestock and am negligent then thats a claim for the seller against my liability coverage.

My significant other used to be an equine and other large animal insurance adjuster before she switched back to property and casualty. She says thats the standard of the industry, on the date the sale is effective it is no longer the sellers property. Legally, the seller cant continue their policy since they dont own the property and lack an insurable interest unless the payment is simply a deposit of purchase pending inspection. If they sell it to you and cant insure their interest and it dies and they refund your money then they lose out all the way around.

While I have never purchased an animal sight unseen, I know that in the horse industry it is not unusual for a foal to be sold long before it has been weaned. Sometimes foals are sold before they are born.

While I am suspect of the seller's demand for insurance, in these days of crazy lawsuits, the seller is probably just trying to protect themselves.

The question that needs to be answered regarding this particular seller is what kind of reputation does the seller have? What kind of place does he have? You might ask the seller his reasons for requiring insurance.

There would be other questions, too. Such as, how would any medical issues be handled and the related cost. Lots to think about in this kind of purchase. But buying anything, whether livestock or material items, can be a gamble.

Dave: Cash and truck, are my policy, whether buyer or seller. If that can't work, I don't need the item or the money.

When I write the check it goes in my trailer. When they write the check it goes in A trailer.

I am a bit supprised you could even buy insurance on something like that. To much risk, I would walk away.

I agree with the others. Under the current setup they can stop feeding the foal the day your check clears and be free and clear. Sounds like someone you don't need to be doing business with.

Given the current horse market I'm surprised they aren't paying you to take it.

Thanks for the warning Dave. Guess I'll never buy a horse from Luxemborg now. Good luck getting an insurance company to pay expecially since you are dealing with 2 different countries and then there are all the loopholes and exclusions an insurance policy would have.

Sounds like a high dollar horse so you must be loaded to begin with. Anyway it doesn't sound like it is a slaughter horse you are taking to the butcher. Must be a royal lippizaner or something. Why not just drive over with your trailer and pay after you've looked it over and have it ready to load if you are going to have some big Eurobucks involved? Besides Luxemborg is a nice area to drive through and some of them even speak englais as I recall.

(quoted from post at 20:16:04 05/29/09) Thanks for the warning Dave. Guess I'll never buy a horse from Luxemborg now. Good luck getting an insurance company to pay expecially since you are dealing with 2 different countries and then there are all the loopholes and exclusions an insurance policy would have.

Sounds like a high dollar horse so you must be loaded to begin with. Anyway it doesn't sound like it is a slaughter horse you are taking to the butcher. Must be a royal lippizaner or something. Why not just drive over with your trailer and pay after you've looked it over and have it ready to load if you are going to have some big Eurobucks involved? Besides Luxemborg is a nice area to drive through and some of them even speak englais as I recall.

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The horse in this case is a paint (last 3 were Quarter Horses) and in the States. They have to go to TX for 30 days quarantine then fly to Luxemburg.
Not loaded at all which is why we buy from the States. Can get a much better animal with the pedigree we want and ship it here cheaper or at a comparible price than we can get a joe blow here.

Dave

Thanks Dave. Sounded like there was more to the story. You indicated when you sell under contract you stipulate that you refund when things happen that are under your control but that is probably local sales. Good for you in that that regard. Would you do the same if someone in the states wanted to buy one of yours in Germany? Even with such a contract, unless you spell out in dollars how much is going to be paid for what losses and what isn't covered, it is just ripe for a lawsuit anyway.

But, I'm not sure most sellers would agree to such a contract unless there was extra bucks for daily care, vet bills, release of liability if another horse kicks it, etc., rabid skunk bite, wire cuts, steps in a hole and breaks a leg, and all other issues that can happen to a horse in your care.

In this case I would think that you would want insurance to cover any loss whatsoever. And whose control is the horse in when a transporter picks it up, spends 30 days in quarantine, takes it to the airport, during the flight, and then during the period before pickup in Luxemborg? Sounds to me like there are multiple parties with all of them needing contracts. When something goes wrong everyone will be blaming someone else so I don't blame the seller here. What if the horse dies in flight? What if the horse doesn't pass a coggins test or gets some other disease before the flight or after? The transporters, airlines, and quarantine people would try to claim the problem came from the seller. I completely understand the seller's position.

This is NOT your standard sale barn or farm purchase of a horse. Too many other parties and variables here. I personally would want to get insurance or be prepared to lose my money paid. But I've seen five hundred dollar paints and papered megabuck paints. Not sure what you are getting, but a mega buck paint would be worth insuring. Especially with all the money you are spending to board it in quarentine for 30 days, transportation, and the airline flight. If this seller is in the business of selling megabuck horses I understand his position of protecting himself. Are you having a vet check the horse and is it your vet or the seller's vet? You wouldn't know who a trustworthy vet is. They don't run tests for all possible diseases and problems anyway. Even if there was a good vet check before the sale, the other parties are still going to blame something on the seller after the vet check and while in the seller's care. A no win situation and a bunch a messy litigation that no seller wants to get involved in.

Good luck on this. And I don't mean any offense by arguing against your position but you did ask for opinions and this is my 2 cents worth(1943 steel pennies adjusted for inflation).

You sure make it sound complicated :roll:

The lady wrote back and decided to go with our contract (she has full responsibility until it leaves transporter loads and signs for it. All other party's are insured. We get a sound/healthy horse or no horse and all money back. Negative Coggins test is part of the original contract. We play the vet check by ear. If someone is buying from us, we give them names and numbers for vets within 60 miles and let them set it up. We haven't had a vet check done on any of the mares we bought and shipped. Just pictures, a few questions, and a gut feeling. We won't sell an unsound/unhealthy animal except to the butcher.
I don't imagine anyone in the States would want to buy a horse from here.

We're still looking for the right match.

Dave