Geothermal

I currently have baseboard hot water as my heating source for my house, no ductwork and a 2 story house. Has any one converted this type of system to geo-thermal and if so how well has it worked for them. We at times get temps in the -20 range here. With a baseboard hot water system I am doughtful that this system will be able to keep up with -20 temps.

I know this is a tractor forum and this is not tractor related, but I will be using the Ford to clean up the mess in the yard from install.

Thanks in advance for all replies

Jim
I can't comment if geo will work with your baseboard heating but we just built a house and put in geothermal heat.

It's unbelieveable. Our heating and AC bills are a 1/3 of what are other house was-which was 1/2 the square footage and just as well insulated.

The extra cost was well worth it as we never plan on moving. My neighbor built his house first and told me how low his bills were with GEO and I did not believe him at first.

You can use Geothermal with water baseboard heat.

Yes it will keep up in -20 degrees if the system is designed right.

Only problem with the water heat is you have no way to use the geothermal heat pump as a airconditioner. You would have to run air ducts for air.

I assume you have no air or window air conditioning now.

Gary

Our house has hot water radiators, my research was that geothermal wouldn't work. The house should be designed for that heating system, lots of insulation and either warm air or radiant floor heat.

I doubt you will have enough finn tube radiation to compensate for the low temp water you will be getting out of the geo unit. most of the time these systems were designed for water temps around 160-180 degrees,Thanks Lyle

I did some research on this last year. I think
the max temp you can get is 140 F with geothermal. I also have
a boiler. So I set the boiler temperature limit at 140 degrees to see how the system would perform.
The result was that on those cold windy nites when demand was highest, the burner would shut off at 140 degrees water temp but the circulator would continue to run about 2 or 3 minutes and then the burner would come back on. In theory this is a better way to do it because you will get more even heat distribution. I found that
to be true but only slightly. My furnace is
oversized so I was wanting to determine heat loss as I was thinking of replacing the boiler with a high efficiency model.
I measured the burner on time when the thermostat called for heat until the thermostat was satisfied and then converted to a percentage.
My average burn time was about 25%. Meaning 15 minutes of burn for every hour.

Now I know I can get along fine with 140F water
on the coldest nites/days of the year. I live in east central Illinois. I have a 1600 sq ft house with full heated basement. Boiler is 140K
btu output.

Good luck

Lynn

Gary,
You are correct I have no air conditioning or duct work in the house. I do not need air conditioning or want it. My concern is as Lyle posted above that the current system was probably designed for a higher water temp than the geothermal can produce. I was thinking that maybe I could keep the oil as a secondary source for when the geo-thermal could not do its job. And also considered adding radiant floor heat to the first floor since I have access from the basement. I have good way of getting duct ork to the second floor, but I also had a thought of installing ducts in the basement and having 2 systems with one running through the current baseboard hotwater servicing the entire house. And then the second system would be forced air to the first floor only. Does this seem workable?

Thanks to all that have responded so far. Jim

Keep in mind that though you operating cost will go down the CO2 will go up. Electricity is mostly coal fired and only 1/3 produced gets to your house. So your better off heating with coal. Won't have to buy the stuff or dig up the back yard.

Coal would not work for me. To many hours and some days away from home or I would go with an outside coal furnace and tie into the existing baseboard.

Hi Jim,

A geothermal HP will not work for you as explained by the 2nd law of thermodynamics states;

"Heat flows from a warmer source too a cooler source."

Your boiler will out produce the heat that a HP can produce thus no heat transfer will take place.

A NG boiler is pretty cheap too use. If your boiler is undersized then you won't beable to keep up.

In your area, I would look at wood heat as that will be the most cost effective.

Solar hydronic would be my next choice.

T_Bone

T_Bone

I am not looking to use the geo-thermal as a suppliment to my current system, but as a total replacement. I would keep the oil fired boiler and have it kick in when the temps got to where the geo could not keep up. I am starting to dought the overall feasability of the cost of a system that would be only viable until the temps got to say maybe 10 degrees. I am gone 14 hours or more every day so wood would not work for me. I have considered maybe a corn stove to suppliment my current system, but would only use it while I was at home.

My overall concern is that although I do not think this world will ever run out of oil, world politics and eco nutjobs will create shortages. I do not want to be late in the game looking for a viable way to heat my house. Where I live you can not install an outdoor coal/wood furnace. Even geo-thermal with the wells are being monitored and I suspect at some point around here will be banned. They have already passed local legislation here prohibiting wind mills. Try to figure the logic in that one. We want green energy, but don't put up any windmills.

Coal is a pain. Just pointing out a flaw in the heat pump propaganda. I personally built 100 sq ft of solar hot air ($400) to cut my Wisconsin heating bill in half. Dosn't help much in Nov or Dec because of clouds but in Feb and Mar the furnace (boiler) barely ever starts.

If you are going to keep the oil as a back up, why wouldn't coal work for you? You fire the coal good and hot before you leave in your out door furnace and you would be surprised how long it will hold a fire. I used to have a Heather coal fired Boiler with an old oil boiler as a backup where we used to live and could leave for a couple days and come back to a few embers in the furnace. A good size coal boiler will hold a fire for 12-14 hours easily. If your coal fire did not last long enough, your oil would come on to take over. Also I'll bet an outdoor furnace will be a lot cheaper then a geothermal, but it's your $$$ JMHO

Circus,

Can you explain your solar system. It sounds like something of interest!

Thanks
Jim

Be prepared for much higher electric bills with a heat pump.
I have geo thermal w/ air duct system. Very efficient, but unfortunately have high electric rates here in CT.

Solved that with a grid tied solar array. I'm now broke but finally self-sufficient & don't give a darn or worry about world energy problems. Figure that into the cost equation (good federal incentives now), and it all makes sense- to me anyway.

Not easy to explain. It's a thermal siphon space heater. Green house glazing in front of blackened sheets of steel in a insulated frame with ducts through the houses exterior wall. There aren't any companies involved due to the low profit and custom nature of solar. Check out builditsolar I'll Email you sketches and photos.

Hi Jim,

Then a solar hydronic system is what your wanting at 160ºf average heat available. You already have the water distribution system available. You might want too consider adding a few wall mounted hydronic/fan units too increase your heat flow too a room. The fans can be solar powered very easy and cost effective.

4ftx8ft solar panels are very easy for a DIY project. The underground storage tank is the biggest build of the project. This way you can keep your oil fired back-up on days "if" you run low on solar heating(doubtful but possible).

I'm always very cautious of "I've got a secret way to heat your home" type guys that do not publish there systems in public. Passive solar air systems have been used for thousands of years so it's nothing new. The problem with passive air is that 12hrs of night time air storage is a huge design problem where the same is accomplished with water very easy.

If you have a Co2 problem inside your home, you'll have that problem no matter what type of heating your using. A Co2 problem is caused by not enough outside make-up air.

Most newer homes do have a indoor air quality problem due too the chemical off gassing of the building materials used. This "can" be a very serious problem too some people.

T_Bone<---45yrs ASHREA HVAC Design Engineer, Indoor Air Quality Engineer, Energy Management Engineer, AWS-CWI, Retired

T_Bone

After your post I searched solar hydronic system and this looks like a very good option for me. Thanks for the info.

Jim

Hi Jim,

A solar hydronic collect is very easy too make and doesn't cost very much for a DIY project. Search the "tool forum" archives on this website for what I've posted in the past about solar hydronics.

If calculate you need a 4000gal concrete storage tank for your area, I sure would consider a 6000gal tank as it's a one time, life time cost and only cost a couple hundred extra. A good fall project for a swimming pool contractor.

About the only collector more efficient is a parabolic collector that makes a steam system. Steam designs are not for residential use from the dangers associated with steam.

T_Bone

Jim,

Look into the air-to-air heat exchangers, my dad has the same set up as you and could not get a geothermal system to work in his house, he went with an air-to-air heat exchanger (works down to 0) and provides air conditioning as well. Units cost him $3,400 installed (2 units in 3,500 square foot house). The technology is changing so fast that better products are coming on the market all the time.

I have an open-loop geothermal system and love it (but I have forced-air in my house).

Joe