- Thread starter NEsota
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I read that yesterday.
The current market for ethanol is 10% of the gasoline we use. We are close to filling that, so really no more demand until something changes there.
Grain prices have become chaotic from the Fund investors doing index fund investments. Scared anyone from investing in ethanol plants for the short term.
So they are looking at their other options in the area. That's been a good company, all their plants work well, good common sense person running that place.
A lot of folks assume that cellulose ethanol (made from wood chips, cornstalks, corncobs, switch grass, etc) will become possible in a few years. (Works in a lab, but not really ecconomically viable right now.) And that the govt will allow higher ethanol blends soon - 12 to 15 % anyhow.
--->Paul
The current market for ethanol is 10% of the gasoline we use. We are close to filling that, so really no more demand until something changes there.
Grain prices have become chaotic from the Fund investors doing index fund investments. Scared anyone from investing in ethanol plants for the short term.
So they are looking at their other options in the area. That's been a good company, all their plants work well, good common sense person running that place.
A lot of folks assume that cellulose ethanol (made from wood chips, cornstalks, corncobs, switch grass, etc) will become possible in a few years. (Works in a lab, but not really ecconomically viable right now.) And that the govt will allow higher ethanol blends soon - 12 to 15 % anyhow.
--->Paul
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Every barrel of ethonal that is used as fuel is a barrel of oil that we are not buying from people that want to kill us. We are past the piont that what ever we are useing as fuel needs to be cheaper then gasoline. We need to get away from imported oil.
I'm on board with drilling here.
The rest of your message has been disproven many times over. Perhaps you work for an oil company?
A 10% blend of ethanol does lose mpg in most vehicles. It also costs less per gallon. Research has found a 20% E20 mix is cheaper, and runs more efficiently.
If we had enough E85 on the market and could run actual E85 tuned engines that would use the much higher octane, _then_ we'd have a big jump in efficiency and mpg. But, it's a chicken or egg thing. Until petrolium goes up to show it's true costs, nothing else can compete with it, so we are stuck buying from people that want to kill us.
Small engines are fine, and filters fill up with the varnich that gasoline has depositied in your system - the ethanol is far cleaner fuel than gasoline. Silly comments there.
Are you surew you want us to pull the 9% fuel we get from ethanol today and go back to using 100% petrolium fuels? Do you really want to pay at the pump what that will cost? Might want to think things over.
Ethanol isn't perfect. But we are a lot better with it than without it.
--->Paul
The rest of your message has been disproven many times over. Perhaps you work for an oil company?
A 10% blend of ethanol does lose mpg in most vehicles. It also costs less per gallon. Research has found a 20% E20 mix is cheaper, and runs more efficiently.
If we had enough E85 on the market and could run actual E85 tuned engines that would use the much higher octane, _then_ we'd have a big jump in efficiency and mpg. But, it's a chicken or egg thing. Until petrolium goes up to show it's true costs, nothing else can compete with it, so we are stuck buying from people that want to kill us.
Small engines are fine, and filters fill up with the varnich that gasoline has depositied in your system - the ethanol is far cleaner fuel than gasoline. Silly comments there.
Are you surew you want us to pull the 9% fuel we get from ethanol today and go back to using 100% petrolium fuels? Do you really want to pay at the pump what that will cost? Might want to think things over.
Ethanol isn't perfect. But we are a lot better with it than without it.
--->Paul
Agreed.
If you have a high compression engine you won't see much of a drop off at all. My Freestyle with 10:1 compression sees no difference between 10% ethanol and "regular". My old Gran Marquis with a lazy 4.6 V8 did lose 1 or 2 MPG. If you have an E85 compliant vehicle mileage drops off about 20% when using E85 vs "regular".
As for food -vs- fuel - it’s a joke. The US lost more acreage to urban sprawl in the last 15 years than it currently has planted in corn. The fact is farmland is so cheap because the commodity prices are so low. 50 years commodity prices kept land values high enough that people were reluctant to convert it to housing sprawl, now it’s every retiring farmers dream to have their land sold for uses other than ag because it will triple the price.
Our food prices are so low it’s blamed for creating the fattest country on earth.
If you have a high compression engine you won't see much of a drop off at all. My Freestyle with 10:1 compression sees no difference between 10% ethanol and "regular". My old Gran Marquis with a lazy 4.6 V8 did lose 1 or 2 MPG. If you have an E85 compliant vehicle mileage drops off about 20% when using E85 vs "regular".
As for food -vs- fuel - it’s a joke. The US lost more acreage to urban sprawl in the last 15 years than it currently has planted in corn. The fact is farmland is so cheap because the commodity prices are so low. 50 years commodity prices kept land values high enough that people were reluctant to convert it to housing sprawl, now it’s every retiring farmers dream to have their land sold for uses other than ag because it will triple the price.
Our food prices are so low it’s blamed for creating the fattest country on earth.
john in la
Well-known Member
On one hand I think we need to get away from buying oil overseas. We could drill more at home or find other sources of power.
On the other hand I have a real problem with subsidized and or mandated products so we will buy them.
Ethanol is not the cure all some make it out to be. Yes it works well in my pickup because I use a full tank a week. I get a little less mileage at a lower cost per gallon. Even if it cost a few cents more a mile I am OK with that because it gets us away from oil.
But in my boat; tractor or lawn mower where it may sit for a few weeks ethanol can sure be a pain. The problem comes from humidity and the fact that ethanol attracts water. Just from normal expansion and contraction of the fuel from hot summer days draws in outside air bring water with it.
While I can reduce this problem by keeping my tanks full all the time this becomes a pain in the rear over time.
So while ethanol may help our farmers with higher price corn it still is not a 100% cure. If the government were to mandate ethanol in every gallon of gas we would have real problems here in the deep south where our humidity runs 95% on a regular basis.
On the other hand I have a real problem with subsidized and or mandated products so we will buy them.
Ethanol is not the cure all some make it out to be. Yes it works well in my pickup because I use a full tank a week. I get a little less mileage at a lower cost per gallon. Even if it cost a few cents more a mile I am OK with that because it gets us away from oil.
But in my boat; tractor or lawn mower where it may sit for a few weeks ethanol can sure be a pain. The problem comes from humidity and the fact that ethanol attracts water. Just from normal expansion and contraction of the fuel from hot summer days draws in outside air bring water with it.
While I can reduce this problem by keeping my tanks full all the time this becomes a pain in the rear over time.
So while ethanol may help our farmers with higher price corn it still is not a 100% cure. If the government were to mandate ethanol in every gallon of gas we would have real problems here in the deep south where our humidity runs 95% on a regular basis.
fixerupper
Well-known Member
For the people who claim such bad mileage from ethanol-start keeping a log book in all of your vehicles, record EVERY gallon and mile and dollar spent for at least a couple of years, IF you can discipline yourself to do so. You can't just go around saying "well I drove to California and back and this fuel gave me such and such mileage.
Run at least 2000 miles at a time using one fuel then the other. It doesn't matter how you drive, at the end of two years it will have averaged out. Do this the year-round. Then report back to us. You might have worse mileage from ethanol, but you might not. At least you'll have the true facts in hand. Jim
Run at least 2000 miles at a time using one fuel then the other. It doesn't matter how you drive, at the end of two years it will have averaged out. Do this the year-round. Then report back to us. You might have worse mileage from ethanol, but you might not. At least you'll have the true facts in hand. Jim
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Right now we do buy oil from people that want to kill us and we will run out of oil someday. So we have to find another energy source. Now would you rather accept the short comings of ethanol (or modify your vehicle accordingly), or have to get rid of everything you own that runs on gas since the only other alternatives are electric and fuel cell power. (biodiesel is another topic)
I do keep good records. Drove a 2003 ford tarus for employer (flexible fuel vehicle). Put at least 40k per year. Millage test was done as follows. 2 weeks on E 85 (with the same sales route) and 2 weeks with the regular gas. 30-35 % differance in millage. Dont know what else you would like for book keeping
john in la
Well-known Member
"Chases Water"
Say What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Ethanol attracts water. That is why it works in Stabil fuel conditioner. It will attract any water available and break it into very small molecules so that it will pass threw the engine.
On the other hand it will attract water right out of the air in high humidity locations such as boat fuel tanks.
Back in the early 90's I saw a 15,000 gallon tank at a gas station that got water in it. Ever time the tank was stick tested for water with paste it passed but people were complaining about the gas quality. All the water was suspended in the tank and would not settle to the bottom. We finally tested the tank by putting paste on the whole stick rather than just the bottom of the stick. When we pulled the stick out it was polka-doted all the way up the stick from the reaction on the paste.
Say What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Ethanol attracts water. That is why it works in Stabil fuel conditioner. It will attract any water available and break it into very small molecules so that it will pass threw the engine.
On the other hand it will attract water right out of the air in high humidity locations such as boat fuel tanks.
Back in the early 90's I saw a 15,000 gallon tank at a gas station that got water in it. Ever time the tank was stick tested for water with paste it passed but people were complaining about the gas quality. All the water was suspended in the tank and would not settle to the bottom. We finally tested the tank by putting paste on the whole stick rather than just the bottom of the stick. When we pulled the stick out it was polka-doted all the way up the stick from the reaction on the paste.
orry, rebel (but I do like your handle), ethanol has an affinity for water & in simple terms, sucks it up like a sponge. That is why is is the primary component of such gas-clean-up products. If gas alone has water added to it, they separate and when the water hits the engine it won't run, BUT adding alcohols to the gas water mix causes the water to be suspended in the alcohol and and little by little it passes thru the engine, maybe not running its best, but at least running vs stalled. It didn't 'chase it away', it sucked it up.
for some other posters:
I've had more than my share of ethanol problems with it in older equipment.
Anyone using it in old eqmt or storing it for months will have had bad experiences too. You don't even need to try to start one to know it isn't right.......just smell the rotten mess, you will know instantly!
And as for not losing mileage, well if you don't notice it, you are not observant enough, don't care, etc. , if you claim same mileage. If you have the latest gee-whiz computer read outs, it is immediately obvious, & if you don't careful records will reveal the loss. Actually, you needn't do anything except observe the facts:
gasoline energy content: 115,000 BTU/gallon
ethanol energy content: 75,000 BTU/gallon
That is a 35% reduction or loss relative to gasoline or what you would see if you ran a tank of pure gasoline against a tank of pure ethanol.
The reason you don't see or miss the loss is that it is diluted by running only 10% ethanol in 90% gasoline. Which puts you in the position of measuring a 4% loss......requires care.
Ethanol is NOT a better fuel than Gasoline. It takes more ethanol (Alcohol), to get the same bang you get from the same amount of gas. That's why alcohol fueled race cars need to INCREASE the carb's jet size to run properly. We are paying MORE per gallon for this ehanol scam. And we are going to pay alot more in the way of taxes to fund/subsidise this garbage. This has been tried before in the mid 70s, shown to be a waste, and stopped. If it is such a great fuel, why are boaters having so much trouble with it? I've read where marinas are getting rid of it and selling straight gasoline. Where do you get your info about the greatness of ethanol? Name a source, I like to read where 20% ethanol mix is cheaper and has a higher octane than gasoline.
Jack
Jack
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
we have plenty of corn, you must believe oil companies propaganda, can"t see you so I can"t say if you are dumber than you look
john in la
Well-known Member
How much yellow or white corn do you eat? Very little is grown for human consumption.
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Grab a Big Mac, Fries and a Coke. The following ingredients have some form of corn: the Bun (HFCS), the Coke (HFCS), the Fries (corn oil), the Ketchup (HFCS and corn syrup), the Big Mac Sauce (HFCS, Hydrolyzed corn), the cheese (corn starch). That leaves the beef patty - made from beef that was fattened with... corn.
My car burns corn; I can heat my house with corn; Corn starch is used in the production of the porcelain part of spark plugs and on and on.
So do we want to talk beans and what we can do with that.
We only have so much farm land and most is going to growing concrete these days.
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Grab a Big Mac, Fries and a Coke. The following ingredients have some form of corn: the Bun (HFCS), the Coke (HFCS), the Fries (corn oil), the Ketchup (HFCS and corn syrup), the Big Mac Sauce (HFCS, Hydrolyzed corn), the cheese (corn starch). That leaves the beef patty - made from beef that was fattened with... corn.
My car burns corn; I can heat my house with corn; Corn starch is used in the production of the porcelain part of spark plugs and on and on.
So do we want to talk beans and what we can do with that.
We only have so much farm land and most is going to growing concrete these days.
HENRY E NC
Member
I have been running my Farmall M on alcohol free gas and never had a problem. I filled up with 10% alcohol gas and then only ran it for an hour and parked it for two months. All of a sudden my glass started to accumulate moisture so I emptied it and lo and behold it got about half full of water so I emptied it again and then move3d the tractor and the bowl filled up again full. That water was sitting in the bottom of the tank. No more alcohol for me. Lost 2 miles to a gallon in both my cars so went bck to no acohol and problem went away.
Not try'n to be rude or start any thing but where I live used to be tobacco contry, now chickens are every where. I have seen Tyson's numbers broken down. Tyson spends more on corn and soymeal to get a pound of meat on the store shelf than any other input, almost as much for feed as all other inputs put together.
CBOT numbers and price tags at the store are connected.
Dave
CBOT numbers and price tags at the store are connected.
Dave
We only have so much farm land and most is going to growing concrete these days
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I agree with that completely. As stated earlier, commodity prices are so low people think nothing of turning rich productive farmland into suburban sprawl. Given the inputs and inflation corn needs to be in the $9-$12 bushel range to equal the prices farmers got in the 1940s and 1950s.
Do you think the US might produce a bit more corn if it were that profitable?
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I agree with that completely. As stated earlier, commodity prices are so low people think nothing of turning rich productive farmland into suburban sprawl. Given the inputs and inflation corn needs to be in the $9-$12 bushel range to equal the prices farmers got in the 1940s and 1950s.
Do you think the US might produce a bit more corn if it were that profitable?
The reason you don't see or miss the loss is that it is diluted by running only 10% ethanol in 90% gasoline. Which puts you in the position of measuring a 4% loss......requires care.
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Agreed, but if the octane rating is bumped up two or three points (as most 10% blends are) the electronic ignition should advance - but its only gain if you have a "higher" compression engine.
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Agreed, but if the octane rating is bumped up two or three points (as most 10% blends are) the electronic ignition should advance - but its only gain if you have a "higher" compression engine.
Loren in MN
Member
I have a comment to make about water in gas. I use a ethanol added gas (cheap) in my lawn mowers and tractors. Seems to run fine, but I did use a small 1 gal can of gas with newspapers to start the fires to burn several brush piles this past spring. I poured some gas on the first pile with a small trail of gas away to light the fire. I moved everthing to a safe distance and lit the trail of gas -it went up in a flash!!! I then went to the next brush pile, did the same thing. When I lit the gas trail and paper, it wouldn't light. I smelled the can, and found it to be mostly water that was left in the bottom of the can. This was almost a third of the can or more that I found to be water. I had bought the gas about 2 months before. I don't know if this is due to the ethanol or that the gas supplier was adding water. I just couldn't believe how much water was in a 1 gal can.
Makes me think about not using ethanol gas.
Makes me think about not using ethanol gas.
Ethanol is not the cure all some make it out to be. Yes it works well in my pickup because I use a full tank a week. I get a little less mileage at a lower cost per gallon. Even if it cost a few cents more a mile I am OK with that because it gets us away from oil.
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I agree completely, as you said anything that limits dollars going overseas to fund the ragheads in the middle east is a good thing. Ethanol is not the answer but can be part of the answer.
Think of it, instead of some external_link charactor in Saudi Arabia taking millions of US dollars and buying German cars, Korean appliances and Japanese electronics you have an American farmer (and distillant worker) buying Ford trucks, John Deere tractors and Ruger rifles.
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I agree completely, as you said anything that limits dollars going overseas to fund the ragheads in the middle east is a good thing. Ethanol is not the answer but can be part of the answer.
Think of it, instead of some external_link charactor in Saudi Arabia taking millions of US dollars and buying German cars, Korean appliances and Japanese electronics you have an American farmer (and distillant worker) buying Ford trucks, John Deere tractors and Ruger rifles.
Thresherman
Member
The biggest ethanol plant in WI is in bankruptcy and waiting to be sold to an oil refiner. Many have had money issues. Bio-mass is where it is at, not corn.
As far as water in gas,isopropyl alcohol is used more for gas line anti-freeze. Methanol is also used, but not ethanol. I have heard of the problem with ethanol blends if you let it sit for awhile, but as far as attracting water, I don't know.
As far as water in gas,isopropyl alcohol is used more for gas line anti-freeze. Methanol is also used, but not ethanol. I have heard of the problem with ethanol blends if you let it sit for awhile, but as far as attracting water, I don't know.
fixerupper
Well-known Member
Case, I'm galad you keep records. More people should do the same thing. I'm a supporter of ethanol but I don't see how in the world E85 can get close to gasoline mileage-wise. 10% is different because there's so little of it in the blend, and how do we even know we're getting 10%. Jim
A perfect example is the Toyota Prius hybrid I have driven since last July.
Toyota not only allows ethanol blends to be used in this car, but they strongly encourage it.
The Prius has a 5 cycle Atkinson cycle engine that can adjust cylinder pressure to what ever the fuel octane will allow to get the best efficiency without detonation out of the avalible fuel.
The static compression ratio of it's engine is 13/1, perfect for best efficiency of ethanol blended fuel.
The whole theme of the Prius is top fuel economy, and it has a very accurate fuel milage computer.
I have run it with pure 87 octane gasoline and with 89 Octane E10.
Results over 5000 miles shows that the Prius makes a consistant 4 mpg better with 89 octane E10 compared to pure 87 octane gasoline.
An engine runs on cylinder pressure, not just heat. The engines ability to produce the most gas expansion with a given fuel is more important than pure BTU's, as the Prius clearly demonstrates.
Toyota not only allows ethanol blends to be used in this car, but they strongly encourage it.
The Prius has a 5 cycle Atkinson cycle engine that can adjust cylinder pressure to what ever the fuel octane will allow to get the best efficiency without detonation out of the avalible fuel.
The static compression ratio of it's engine is 13/1, perfect for best efficiency of ethanol blended fuel.
The whole theme of the Prius is top fuel economy, and it has a very accurate fuel milage computer.
I have run it with pure 87 octane gasoline and with 89 Octane E10.
Results over 5000 miles shows that the Prius makes a consistant 4 mpg better with 89 octane E10 compared to pure 87 octane gasoline.
An engine runs on cylinder pressure, not just heat. The engines ability to produce the most gas expansion with a given fuel is more important than pure BTU's, as the Prius clearly demonstrates.
fixerupper
Well-known Member
This fall I retired our forty five year old gas barrel that had never been drained since it was new, that I know of. I retired it because it was too big for my purposes and the fuel sat in there too long. I was filling it half full twice a year so there was plenty of time for condensation to form.
It had a top mounted pump. It held 10% ethanol the last ten years. When I finally got the drain plug out of it to get the last of the gas out of the bottom of it about ten gallons of clean gas came out followed by about one gallon of rusty gas at the very end. There was no sludge, no water. I kept the ten gallons and put it in the tractors. They ran fine with no water in the sediment bulbs. I used the rusty gas to light a fire and it lit up in a flash. This was a 550 gallon barrel.
On the other hand, I have to use Sea Foam in my small engines now to un-gunk the carbs and I never used to have to do that years ago. I know it's because of the poor quality gasoline we have today, but shouldn't the alcohol in the gasoline clean that up?Jim
It had a top mounted pump. It held 10% ethanol the last ten years. When I finally got the drain plug out of it to get the last of the gas out of the bottom of it about ten gallons of clean gas came out followed by about one gallon of rusty gas at the very end. There was no sludge, no water. I kept the ten gallons and put it in the tractors. They ran fine with no water in the sediment bulbs. I used the rusty gas to light a fire and it lit up in a flash. This was a 550 gallon barrel.
On the other hand, I have to use Sea Foam in my small engines now to un-gunk the carbs and I never used to have to do that years ago. I know it's because of the poor quality gasoline we have today, but shouldn't the alcohol in the gasoline clean that up?Jim
es, ethanol & virtually all of the dozens of alcohols like water. I wouldn't dump the bottle od drug store isopropyl into you gas tank to help with the water problem, since the label states that it already has 30% water content.
This on ethanol/gas/water:
Ethyl alcohol, because of its affinity for water, is not blended into gasoline until it is loaded into the delivery tank truck. American Petroleum Institute (API) member companies address the need to control the ethanol blend component in API Recommended Practice (RP) 1626 that states: “In-truck blending is not recommended since complete blending may not occur.” Thus, so-called “splash-blending” ethanol in tank trucks is not recommended since the ethyl/gasoline components tend to stratify and remain stratified after delivery to the refueling facility. As a result, the pump may pick up a high concentration of stratified ethyl alcohol, damage the automobile engine and not be covered under warranty.
This affinity of ethyl alcohol for water is a strong reason to follow API RP 1621 and remove water from tank bottoms when the water exceeds one inch. While ethanol can safely absorb 0.5 percent ethyl alcohol into a solution, the water reduces the motor fuel BTU content and octane rating, again affecting the consumer. When ethanol absorbs more than 0.5 percent of alcohol, a “phase-separation” will occur as the alcohol begins to drop out of the gasohol solution into the water bottom of the tank. This phase-separated alcohol/water bottom encourages the growth of aerobic bacteria colonies, which are detrimental to petroleum fuels and certain fuel handling components.
I don't know about the biomass deal. While use'n wood chips or other "waste" might be doable, most of what I am hearing about the biomass is the switch grass hay. If I can't pencil out making hay to feed cows here at the house with, how in the world am I going to make hay for the ethanol plant, haul it 30 miles and make money? If we take enough acres out of hay/pasture production to feed our gas tanks what is that going to do to the price of beef at the store? Some around here are talking about use'n broiler litter, well cheap litter is the only thing letting alot of row crop farmers around here squeek out a profit with fertalizer and grain prices what they are.
Only way we are going to break free from the mid east oil t** is to start drilling here and now. We have enough off shore and other oil here to last 100+ years. By them maybe all the mid east crazies will have kill each other out and we can go back to do'n buisness with who ever is left.
Dave
Only way we are going to break free from the mid east oil t** is to start drilling here and now. We have enough off shore and other oil here to last 100+ years. By them maybe all the mid east crazies will have kill each other out and we can go back to do'n buisness with who ever is left.
Dave
"But the U.S. ethanol building boom is over. 'It all came to a screeching halt when our friends on Wall Street manipulated the commodity market,' Fagen said"
I think this comment is very valid. We should take notice of what has happened as Wall Street may very well destroy what is left of the American farmer too.
A few years back, I was listening to a discussion on NPR where two "experts" were arguing over if ethanol was really reducing the country's dependence on oil. I thought "ya know, if the net gain from corn based ethanol is so small that we all can't agree that it's reducing the country's oil consumption, I have my doubts that ethanol is really worth all this effort."
I know there is a camp that wants to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. Part of me says, heck, let's drain the middle east. Once it's gone, then they will have absolutely nothing left over there but sand.
At the end of the day, I favor eliminating all the subsidies and tariffs and let corn based ethanol stand on it's own. If it can compete with sugar based ethanol, great. If it can't, than that's the free market at work. Just my $.02
I think this comment is very valid. We should take notice of what has happened as Wall Street may very well destroy what is left of the American farmer too.
A few years back, I was listening to a discussion on NPR where two "experts" were arguing over if ethanol was really reducing the country's dependence on oil. I thought "ya know, if the net gain from corn based ethanol is so small that we all can't agree that it's reducing the country's oil consumption, I have my doubts that ethanol is really worth all this effort."
I know there is a camp that wants to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. Part of me says, heck, let's drain the middle east. Once it's gone, then they will have absolutely nothing left over there but sand.
At the end of the day, I favor eliminating all the subsidies and tariffs and let corn based ethanol stand on it's own. If it can compete with sugar based ethanol, great. If it can't, than that's the free market at work. Just my $.02
hich came first? The chicken or the egg?
Wall Street or...................
Others would argue that it was ethanol's friends and enemies in Washington and state capitals who did the manipulating over subsidies and mandates.
I would contend that subsidies & mandates created an unrealistic/false house of cards & Wall Street simply speedup up its inevitable collapse.
May see the same thing with electric cars. The batteries are not there.
If there is a price difference between the alcohol blend and regular gas, do you trust the oil companies to give the the right fuel from the right pump. If I was of no moral and ethical intentions and had a gas station, I would be inclined to put the cheaper of the fuels in all the pumps. Who would know. Who checks for correct formulation in each pump and octane. Your cars knock sensor will let you burn all of them. Fellow told me the only way not to get cheated is to buy the cheapest gasoline, could he be right? Think about it?
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
The reason the fuel ethanol industry collapsed is because the basic economics make it an unprofitable business. You have a product that requires a lot of energy to produce, that then needs to be sold at a competitive price. As oil gets more expensive, ethanol becomes more expensive to produce and distribute. As oil gets cheaper, it's cheaper to produce ethanol but it now has to compete with cheap petroleum.
Massive energy conservation is the only long-term solution to dwindling petroleum reserves. We can do it now, or we can simply wait until we've used up all the cheap oil and gasoline is selling for a hundred bucks a gallon.
Massive energy conservation is the only long-term solution to dwindling petroleum reserves. We can do it now, or we can simply wait until we've used up all the cheap oil and gasoline is selling for a hundred bucks a gallon.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Stickers on pumps here say Enriched with Ethanol.Big LIE.Cant find gas without ethanol here.So we burn more fuel to go the same distance.I notice that Sams Club has cases of Dry Gas on hand, looks like people are still buying dry gas.Some dry gas has methanol in it ,a very corrosive chemical.
I'll tell you the truth, the way I see it. We're ALL going to be paying alot more. We can talk on here all we want about gas verus alcohol. Our wantabe "leaders" in DC are going to bleed us any which way we go. If this country was really serious about getting the energy we need, we would be drilling off both coasts, plus continental drilling for both oil and natural gas. In addition, we would be seriously into COAL gasification. Getting nuc power plants going. But none of that is going to happen. And none of that changes the FACT that Ethanol is a JOKE. Just because some people make money on it, doesn't change that fact.
Jack
Jack
I am late to the thread, but, one factor no one can really evaluate is the driving habits, terrain, and weather plus condition of tires. I accept that over many miles, these factors pretty much become unimportant. I kept all records except the price/cost on my 2006 Corolla for 30K, about two years and it averaged (the only figure that matters) 34 and a fraction mpg. I drive mostly on a slightly rolling interstate at or around speed limit of 70mph. Some days I felt I had time and drove only 65mph or times I was in a hurry and drove a little over the limit (keeping up with the traffic!) I think that would make a 2mpg difference or 17%. For long term energy independence, the only thing that counts is just using less gallons of any kind of gasoline. IMHO
Leo
Leo
dhermesc & Jon: I (and most everyone on this thread) am speaking of the energy content of the fuels & the numbers given are FACT, not my opinion or the result of some limited personal experience with one piece of machinery.
NOW, what one does with the fuel to convert it into turning their wheels is an entirely different matter, whether it be a turbine, steam engine, fuel-cell, IC engine, Miller-cycle IC engine, Atkinson cycle IC engine, or whatever else a mind can conceive.
However, given the hundred years of IC engine refinement and the fact that Miller cycle is also nothing new, having been used in several makes of cars for over a decade, I contend that it is not possible to gain enough efficiency in the conversion of fuel into wheel turning to overcome the 35% deficit of ethanol compared to gasoline. Furthermore, IF anyone could make an engine efficiency leap of 35% with ethanol, then the same measures could be applied to make a similar leap with another fuel as well. Real world efforts have resulted in 5 to 7% efficiency increases by engine modifications to take advantage of the ethanol octane, thus leaving you with a a 28 to 30% loss in MPG (some claim only 23% loss), which has been measured with much better equipment than you or I have and cost more than our cars. Jon, as to your experience, I can't help you resolve your number with the rest of the world.
NOW, what one does with the fuel to convert it into turning their wheels is an entirely different matter, whether it be a turbine, steam engine, fuel-cell, IC engine, Miller-cycle IC engine, Atkinson cycle IC engine, or whatever else a mind can conceive.
However, given the hundred years of IC engine refinement and the fact that Miller cycle is also nothing new, having been used in several makes of cars for over a decade, I contend that it is not possible to gain enough efficiency in the conversion of fuel into wheel turning to overcome the 35% deficit of ethanol compared to gasoline. Furthermore, IF anyone could make an engine efficiency leap of 35% with ethanol, then the same measures could be applied to make a similar leap with another fuel as well. Real world efforts have resulted in 5 to 7% efficiency increases by engine modifications to take advantage of the ethanol octane, thus leaving you with a a 28 to 30% loss in MPG (some claim only 23% loss), which has been measured with much better equipment than you or I have and cost more than our cars. Jon, as to your experience, I can't help you resolve your number with the rest of the world.
As I stated in both of my posts, My Prius makes more MPG with 89 octane E10 than it does with 87 octane gasoline. E10 is 10% ethanol, 90% gasoline which is only down 3.5% on BTU's compared to pure Gasoline,
Your own admission that an engine optimized for ethanol can gain 5-7% efficiency, while only losing 3.5% BTU's with an E10 blend.
Nowhere in my post did I claim to gain mpg while burning E100 VS gasoline.
Your own admission that an engine optimized for ethanol can gain 5-7% efficiency, while only losing 3.5% BTU's with an E10 blend.
Nowhere in my post did I claim to gain mpg while burning E100 VS gasoline.
You can't cherry-pick and use the potential gains available in engine refinement for E85 and apply those to E10! Yes, 5 to 7% gain is possible for E85, thus partially offsetting the 30% that it is down on energy, thus resulting in the widely reported/measured ~23% miles per gallon loss.
You can't gain that same 5 to 7% with E10.
Better mileage with ethanol or ethanol mix than pure gasoline?........the physics doesn't support it & the argument can go on forever, BUT the real world testing by not only the EPA, but nearly every automobile magazine published, rears it's ugly head & low & behold, they all show lower gas mileage with ethanol! Surprise, surprise as Gomer used to say. Gee, I guess that's why they use higher flow capacity injectors or lengthen the injector squirt time of ethanol capable vehicles. Wow! Another surprise!
If you are happy with the result you believe your 'data?' shows you, Jon, I say keep on being happy. Just don't be offended or surprised that you are probably the only one on earth believing them. You can't get more from less, no matter what you do.
P.S. I'm not saying that you are being untruthful, just that your data, data collection, experiment variables &/or whatever are flawed.
You also say that the same modifications that allow more efficiency with ethanol would apply to any other fuel as well. Not in the case of gasoline. Best burn efficiency is if you run cylinder pressure right to the point of detonation. You can run more cylinder pressure with an 89 or higher octane ethanol / gasoline blend than you can with 87 octane gasoline. Also consider that I have been told that fuel blenders (E10) can use a low octane gasoline made from the heavier oil fractions which contain more BTU's than the lighter fractions used to make premium gasoline.
You can use a lower octane, yet higher BTU content gasoline to blend with ethanol which brings the octane level back to an acceptable number while gaining back a bit of those lost 3.5% BTU's.
I hate people using the fuel economy numbers taken from todays flex fuel cars. They are a terrible compromize, they have to be built to tolerate the lowest octane junk gasoline without detonation damage, usually well under 10/1 compression ratio which makes them very ill equipped to use the high octane properties of the ethanol / gasoline blends and especially E85. I don't know of any flex fuel car that uses an Atkinson cycle engine to take advantage of the higher octane ethanol blends, as their limited WOT power level is pretty bad on lower octane fuel without the help of a hybrid's electric motor boost.
You can use a lower octane, yet higher BTU content gasoline to blend with ethanol which brings the octane level back to an acceptable number while gaining back a bit of those lost 3.5% BTU's.
I hate people using the fuel economy numbers taken from todays flex fuel cars. They are a terrible compromize, they have to be built to tolerate the lowest octane junk gasoline without detonation damage, usually well under 10/1 compression ratio which makes them very ill equipped to use the high octane properties of the ethanol / gasoline blends and especially E85. I don't know of any flex fuel car that uses an Atkinson cycle engine to take advantage of the higher octane ethanol blends, as their limited WOT power level is pretty bad on lower octane fuel without the help of a hybrid's electric motor boost.
Yes, it is difficult to know everything. Chevy, GMC, Cadillac all have Atkinson cycle 10.8:1 , E85 engines. They are no where near alone in 10:1 CR numbers, as that can be found at a glance in Ford, BMW, Porsche, Lambo (12.5:1), Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Jag, and many more, some flex fuel, some not. These CR's are possible due to advances in electronics, variable valve timing, combustion chamber design, new fuel injection techniques, etc. A 2010 Ford flex fuel test shows 16.3% MPG loss with E85 versus pure gasoline.
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