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Electricity use ?????

A

Anonymous-0

Well-known Member
Hey folks,
Something just crossed my mind when I looked at some 120 volt lightbulbs.

They were CFL with 60 watt equal. Wattage was 13. A 230 volt CFL =60 watt is 7 watt.
Does that mean that 120 volt uses twice the wattage as 230 volts, meaning you'd use twice the electricity on the meter?

Also,
the strongest breaker in my box is 16 amp with a 40 amp main. Am I misunderstanding something, or is 230 volt more energy efficient?

If so, with so many dual voltage appliances available, wouldn't it be cheaper in the long run for you folks to do some adjusting on wiring?

B&D, feel free to dazzle me with your brilliance :shock: .

Dave
 
(quoted from post at 14:48:22 01/16/10) Hey folks,
Something just crossed my mind when I looked at some 120 volt lightbulbs.

They were CFL with 60 watt equal. Wattage was 13. A 230 volt CFL =60 watt is 7 watt.
Does that mean that 120 volt uses twice the wattage as 230 volts, meaning you'd use twice the electricity on the meter?

Also,
the strongest breaker in my box is 16 amp with a 40 amp main. Am I misunderstanding something, or is 230 volt more energy efficient?

If so, with so many dual voltage appliances available, wouldn't it be cheaper in the long run for you folks to do some adjusting on wiring?

B&D, feel free to dazzle me with your brilliance :shock: .

Dave
Click to expand...
pples to apples? Same lumens?
In general, less loss with higher voltage, but not 2:1 in a small bulb. Something doesn't compute?
 
Amps X volts = Watts. Same watts but 1/2 the volts means need twice the Amps. Fuse rating by amps means can take twice the volts for same watts - or twice the volts has 1/2 the amps. Your example of 13.2 amps for 60 watt 120 -- use 230 and get 7watt (should read/be 7 amp) for same 60 waat bulb is mathematicly balanced if not proper spell checked/ logic checked. Sea (see)the difference? Have fun getting lit. RN
 
You got it Dave, 220v does use approximately half the power of 120v. Amp draw will be approximately half. That being said though, European 220 is a single hot leg running 220v and a neutral (no voltage) leg. Our 220v consists of 2 legs both being 110v each, two hots. Dealt with this alot when I used to design electrical controls.
 
JDB,

You wrote: "220v does use approximately half the power of 120v."

Is it POSSBILE you meant "220v does use approximately half the CURRENT of 120v"?
 
Hello Dave2,
Hey Dave just do the math Volts x Amps = Watts.
You said 230V is from your mains, so your total amount of power available to you is:
230V x 40A = 9200 Watts.
If you had only 115 volt mains and 80 amps service, then you would have:
115V x 80A = 9200 Watts.
The cost is based on a kilowatt regardless of voltage used that is what your meter is measuring........its a Kilowatt counter.
Guido.
 
Reports are that CFL makers fudge the equivalent lumens. That it takes more watts with a CFL to get the equivalent lumens compared to the incandescent lamp than they claim. For that matter a 5% change in incandescent lamp voltage changes its light by 10% and its life a lot more. Going up increases the light, but cuts the life in half. Going down cuts the light by 10% but doubles the life.

Gerald J.
 
(quoted from post at 15:05:00 01/16/10) Amps X volts = Watts. Same watts but 1/2 the volts means need twice the Amps. Fuse rating by amps means can take twice the volts for same watts - or twice the volts has 1/2 the amps. Your example of 13.2 amps for 60 watt 120 -- use 230 and get 7watt (should read/be 7 amp) for same 60 waat bulb is mathematicly balanced if not proper spell checked/ logic checked. Sea (see)the difference? Have fun getting lit. RN
Click to expand...
More like an electric heater than a bulb! 1500Watts!
120 X 13=
I think you might have mis-read his post or ????
 
(quoted from post at 15:05:00 01/16/10) Amps X volts = Watts. Same watts but 1/2 the volts means need twice the Amps. Fuse rating by amps means can take twice the volts for same watts - or twice the volts has 1/2 the amps. Your example of 13.2 amps for 60 watt 120 -- use 230 and get 7watt (should read/be 7 amp) for same 60 waat bulb is mathematicly balanced if not proper spell checked/ logic checked. Sea (see)the difference? Have fun getting lit. RN
Click to expand...
More like an electric heater than a bulb! 1500Watts!
120 X 13=1560
I think you might have mis-read his post or ????
 
(quoted from post at 12:04:33 01/16/10) We pay by Watts not by amps so the cost should be the same.
Walt

60/120=.5 amps
60/230=.26 amps
Click to expand...

So do we...
So, you and I use/pay for 1kw=1 dollar (example only) . I ran a 1000 watt heater for an hour but you only got 30 minutes for your buck.

Or am I still missing something???
I think I spelled everything good enough........

Dave
 
***They were CFL with 60 watt equal. Wattage was 13. A 230 volt CFL =60 watt is 7 watt.***
There is no way that this statement is true for the same type of light bulb. .
A equivilent to 60 watt bulb will be all most the same actual WATTS weather 120 or 230. The amps will be about half for the 230.
 
***So, you and I use/pay for 1kw=1 dollar (example only) . I ran a 1000 watt heater for an hour but you only got 30 minutes for your buck.

Or am I still missing something???

I think I spelled everything good enough........**

Dave, repeat after me.. A WATT IS A WATT, IS A WATT!! It doesn't care if 120 volts, 220 440, or 2200 volts.
If you run a 1000 watt heater for half an hour you are charged for one/half a kilowatt hour.
 
(quoted from post at 14:36:53 01/16/10) There is no way that this statement is true for the same type of light bulb. .
.
Click to expand...

back off a little.......... Just reading off the package of each bulb. Both are CFL 60 watt equalivalent, one says 7 watt and the other says 13 watt.

Dave
 
***back off a little.......... Just reading off the package of each bulb. Both are CFL 60 watt equalivalent, one says 7 watt and the other says 13 watt.

Dave **
Dave, I am sorry if I sound like I am insulting you , I don't mean too. Assuming you are reading the package right, All I can say is if it reads that, it must have come from the same place in China that makes 15 HP air compressors that operate on 10 anps on a 120 volt house hold plug in. 60 watts of light from 7 watts is way more efficient than I think they have achieved. Or else thy have invented a new type that is twice as efficient as the other one.
 

Bad hair day :roll: That's what the package says.
I asked a question on here a while back about using 230 volt CFL bulbs with 110 volt power and someone said they'd only be half as bright because of half the wattage. I'm a little thick headed when it comes to that stuff.


Dave
 
Your meter measures watts, not amps and not volts. Anybody who tells you 220 volts uses half the power of 110 volts is severly misinformed. A 220 volt circuit runs power down two lines intead of one, that's all. So, in a circuit using 10 amps at 110 volts via one line, a 220 volt circuit of the same wattage has two lines carrying 5 amps each. 1 X 10 amps equals 2 X 5 amps. A 20 watt light bulb uses the same amount of electricity regardless if built for 12 volts, 120 volts, or 240 volts.
 
Walt and Coloken are correct. A watt is the same no matter if it's 120V or 240V. Amperage changes when voltage changes. That's why we pay for electricity with a watt/hour meter and not an ammeter. If we used an ammeter, and the voltage dropped a little like during a period of high demand, the amps would be lower so the user would be charged less than if paying by the number of watts.
An easy example is a 6V tractor vs a 12V tractor. The 6V tractor uses half the volts of the 12V tractor, so all things being the same, (engine size electrical loads) the 6V tractor will require twice the amps to start the engine and light the lights. Since twice the amps are required, much heavier wire is needed to carry the extra amperage.
This same reasoning applies to why more and more functions on a new car are computer controlled. If every function were directly controlled by each switch, the wiring harness would be tremendously heavy. By using tiny amounts of current that a module can recognize, the same functions can be accomplished, plus some that were not possible with old technology, with considerably less raw material. Less raw material, less weight, less cost.
 
Nope. Amp draw in total is just the same. A 120 VAC circuit runs all the power through one line. An 240 volt circuit uses two lines, with half the power on each line. Total amps is exactly the same, either way.
 
Watts are watts.
Usually and up to a point,it's "cheaper" to "ship" the same amount of power using higher voltages. Rather than at lower voltage.
Less $$$ copper or aluminum to purchase to carry the same power with the same losses at higher voltages. Lighter smaller towers,cables,supports,connectors etc.
500,000V is common, 765,000 is used but is foul tempered. 1 million volts has been tried the equipment keeps blowing up.
 
(quoted from post at 19:08:20 01/16/10) Nope. Amp draw in total is just the same. A 120 VAC circuit runs all the power through one line. An 240 volt circuit uses two lines, with half the power on each line. Total amps is exactly the same, either way.
Click to expand...

Please do not confuse Dave any more then he needs. Where Dave lives 240v is on one hot, not two as in the USA and you imply here.

Dave,

If you are using a transformer to reduce your voltage you need to calculate it's efficiency into your cost savings. If you are using one of the common 240v-120v gray ones, you can count on about 85% efficiency (the other 15% is the warm transformer you feel). In that case a 10 watt bulb will actually use 11.5 watts if you are using a current reducing transformer.
 
(quoted from post at 16:52:56 01/16/10)
Dave,

If you are using a transformer to reduce your voltage you need to calculate it's efficiency into your cost savings. If you are using one of the common 240v-120v gray ones, you can count on about 85% efficiency (the other 15% is the warm transformer you feel). In that case a 10 watt bulb will actually use 11.5 watts if you are using a current reducing transformer.
Click to expand...

Just asking a question. I've only got one transformer (75 watt) on the place that I use to run my 110 volt makita charger, a normal battery charger, and a set of hair clippers.

I got the 120 volt CFL bulbs cause they were accidentally ordered by the commissary and were sold dirt cheap ($2 for 8 bulbs) and they fit with a power pack that I ordered on JDEMARIS' suggestion from another post.

Just noticed the difference on the two packs and thought I'd ask.


Dave
 
What the packaging is at fault at is the way they are making their statement.

The 60 watt equivalent is actually referring to the lumen output of the bulb. Using only 7 watts the compact fluorescent bulb will put out the same lumens as a 60 watt incandescent bulb.
 
Ha! I bet I have the exact same 110v Makita charger. The 9.6v one for the drill?

Believe it or it or not I have my battery chargers on a timer (including the 110v one). Keeps the at top charge and runs them for a few hours a day. Saves a little on electricity.

Leaving that transformer on 24/7 consumes the same electricity in its inefficiency as one of your new bulbs.

If you getting into farming and do not have "nachtstrom" yet, you need to look into it ASAP.
 
BS JD, your talking magic here.
120V uses TWO wires, the hot and the nuetral, just like 240V uses two wires, both hots, the nuetral is not used with 240V.

Both 120V and 240V need a supply line and a return path.
On 120V, the hot line or nuetral, switch being the supply or return path 60 times a second at 60 cycle AC, but both carry the full amp load.

On 240V the nuetral is not used, and the two hot leads change off being supply or return path 60 times a second at 60 cycle AC.

The reason you need to flow twice the amps at 120V for a given wattage, is not that somehow all those amps are carried by 1 wire on 120V while 240V uses two, but that twice the voltage needs only 1/2 the amps to make the same wattage.

Both 120v and 240V are carried on two conductors
 
I missed this You only 40 Amp mains with your 230 system.

I have 200 Amp service to handle my farm, I have several things that can draw 50 amps at 220 so I need the extra power to keep things going.

When I bought this place in 1992 the main was 200 amps but the Old, Old transformer on the pole outside was on capable of 60 amps.
So got my 220 12 in. saw ready to try, turned it on all the light in the house went out.
Called the power company and two days later had a brand new transformer.
Walt

PS Watts are recorded where the power goes into the main box. It will measure WATTS only and doesn't care one bit about voltage or amperage.
 
(quoted from post at 21:33:16 01/16/10) I missed this You only 40 Amp mains with your 230 system.

I have 200 Amp service to handle my farm, I have several things that can draw 50 amps at 220 so I need the extra power to keep things going.
Click to expand...

Convenient thing about 230 volt is you can take the welder anywhere you want to use it and just plug it in. Oven, on demand water heater, and grain press are 400 volt and I have a buzzsaw that is 400 volt. Thought the water heater was saving money because I wasn't paying to keep the water hot 24/7.....WRONG.. Maybe when fuel was so high. All runs through the same box.

Dave
 
Over the course of 26 posts here there is so much wrong that all would be well advised to erase all from their mind and start fresh! Man!!???!!
 
You too are bit misinformed.

120 VAC sends current down one line. The neutral is basically the return path. That's is why 120 VAC circuits are often express in "one way distance" and "two way distance."

240 VAC sends current down two lines and can work with no return path.
 
I better qualify my statement to avoid more arguments. Many 240 volt circuits are allowed to be wired with no neutral wire (that relates to my comment about no return path). Especially common in farm wiring. I've never seen an application that allows 120 wiring without a neutral wire for return.

My main point was/is to address the rediculous comments about 240 volt circuits using less power then 120 volt.
 
Agreed, no great saving with 240V unless the 120V feed is far too long and far too light.

240V is nice for less amps required and better load balance.
 
If a circuit is wired correctly, the loss will be no different, regardless if 12, 120, or 240 volts. Problem is that high amps at low voltage causes an extremely high expense for wire, and thus the benefit of higher voltage. It's also why many solar panels are now being wired at 400-600 volts instead of 12 volts.
 
OK EVERYONE IS CONFUSING EACHOTHER

In america we have 120 then we have 240. The 240 is carried along 2 "hot" wires of 120, so when you put 120 and 120 together you have 240.

Dave is on european power
So he has one hot wire of 240 and a neutral.

Watts are the same no matter what the voltage is. Thats why we are billed by KW used (kilowatts).

Basic electrical class here
1KW (kilowatt) is equal to 1000W (watts)

Using the electrical formula W/V=A
in the US at 120V
1200W = 10 amps
2400W = 20 amps

Now over where dave2 lives where he has a single line of 240 using our formula
1200W = 5 amps
2400W = 10 amps

This is the reason why his house has smaller breakers than ours, and he can get away with smaller wires.

The higher the amperage the larger wire guage. Thats why over here we have 440 V/480 V/600 V/1270 V etc. You could run much larger motor loads, and still only pull several amps.

I hope this helps
 
See the post greenbeanman made. The CFL using 13 watts puts out the same amount of light as a standard bulb at 60 watts.

But it also puts out a lot of UV light and my eyes are UV sensitive. Which is why I went through the house with GE Reveal bulbs and getting rid of them friggin CFLs.
 
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