Help, I need a electrician! What I found.

After spending all day Saturday in the barn checking most things that were brought up in this forum this is what I came up with. I removed all circuits from my breaker box and the 2+ volts are coming in on the utilities neutral wire, so I removed all grounds from the ground buss bar leaving only the neutrals hooked there and took them to the ground rod this took the 2+ volts away from my waterier when I hooked it back up. I checked all ground connection that I could get to from the barn to the meter pole and all were good, must be coming from down stream somewhere. Should the electric company be able to fix this issue or is this normal? Again thanks for everyones input, a great place to get info.!!!!!

Mark

You have to separate the farm ground from the utility ground to stop that. The utility won't agree.

You can use an isolation transformer to isolate the ground too.

You can drive 100 more ground rods but it probably won't change that voltage significantly. If you do drive many ground rods, space then about a rod length apart to get the most benefit.

Gerald J.

Did you try using the air bubbler or doubling insulating the heater by putting it inside a plastic container? As you found out, electricity travels through the ground too. I wouldn't count on the electric company solving your problem. You may want to find a taller water tank, bury it, put an air bubbler in the tank to stir the water and forget using electricity to heat the water. Go green! Use the ground's heat to keep your water from freezing. Think outside the box to fix your problem. If you still insist using electricity, find a 2 kw isolation transformer and isolate your ground from the electric company. After you price a 2 kw transformer, you may want to bury a tank. LOL George

They told me it could be coming from something like somebody's water heater or submersable pump from 2 miles away. Like GeraldJ says,it's called a "split nuetral". That's what Consumers Energy had to do for me.

(quoted from post at 14:52:40 02/08/10) After spending all day Saturday in the barn checking most things that were brought up in this forum this is what I came up with. I removed all circuits from my breaker box and the 2+ volts are coming in on the utilities neutral wire, so I removed all grounds from the ground buss bar leaving only the neutrals hooked there and took them to the ground rod this took the 2+ volts away from my waterier when I hooked it back up. I checked all ground connection that I could get to from the barn to the meter pole and all were good, must be coming from down stream somewhere. Should the electric company be able to fix this issue or is this normal? Again thanks for everyones input, a great place to get info.!!!!!

Mark

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o, is your metal breaker box sitting there at 2 volts now? If, so, that needs attention, too.

do you not have a ground rod at the transformer pole, and at the meter?? these should be clean and tight and grounded. If your in a rocky area, then you can have "ground rise" problems.. but each transformer pole should have a ground wire running to a copper plate at the base of the pole or to a ground rod. Its preferred to ground at these points with a good ground vrs a rod at your barn. a good ground at your barn can bring the lighting and faults into the barn instead of at the power pole. good luck..

Just get the barn on it's own ground rod system not connected to the anything else.
Keep that 2V neutral isolated from everything at the barn except other white wires.

I don't know about the transformer pole, it's across the street in someone’s pasture. It goes from there to the pole with the meter and there is a ground wire that goes from the top of the pole through the meter base and into the ground. Every connection I can get to has a good tight ground. I will go to the transformer pole and make sure it does have this ground also??

Thanks, that's what I have now.

Mark

No, the metal breaker box is isolated from the neutral and grounded back through the ground rod now.

Thanks
Mark

I need to replace the old waterer and everyone tells me to try the energy free ones, I have been pertty much talked into trying one.

Thanks
George

(quoted from post at 11:52:40 02/08/10) After spending all day Saturday in the barn checking most things that were brought up in this forum this is what I came up with. I removed all circuits from my breaker box and the 2+ volts are coming in on the utilities neutral wire, so I removed all grounds from the ground buss bar leaving only the neutrals hooked there and took them to the ground rod this took the 2+ volts away from my waterier when I hooked it back up. I checked all ground connection that I could get to from the barn to the meter pole and all were good, must be coming from down stream somewhere. Should the electric company be able to fix this issue or is this normal? Again thanks for everyones input, a great place to get info.!!!!!

Mark

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Mark, I had a relative who had that problem so severe that his cows would get a shock from the metal railings on his feed bunkers. After working with PPL on ground rods , adding extra grounds to no avail for a time the decision was made to install an Isolation Transformer as another suggested. That cured his problem but so many of his animals suffered neurological damage that he was forced to leave dairying and moved out of the area. This is a mysterious problem, an employee of PPL told me that there was a barn far away from the lines and the building had no electrical service ever installed that had measurable voltage on the metal stalls. If you are trying to raise animals bite the bullet and get the Isolation Transformer.

Gerald, I split the grounds from the neutrals and that took care of the problem at the barn. Is this a good, correct, and permanent fix??

Thanks
Mark

Mark, I'm not sure I follow you here. At the panel in the barn, you removed the grounding wires from the grounding buss bar but left the neutrals attached to the grounding buss bar and then grounded that bar to the ground rod. That fixed your 2 volts on the waterer. Correct me if I misquoted you.

What did you do with grounding wires that are with the wire runs throughout the barn? They need to be bonded together with a ground rod.

I suspect your problem was that the neutrals and ground wires were on the same buss which is what was done on some old panels. The newer way is to have a separate neutral/grounded buss bar for neutrals only and a separate grounding buss bar for the bare or green colored wire grounding wires that are with your wire runs and probably nm wire. When separate grounded/neutral and grounding buss bars are used, there is screw on that neutral/grounded buss somewhere that is screwed in so it contacts the metal of the panel box to which the grounding buss bar is attached.

I guess you need to clarify which type of buss bar system your panel has and how you have the grounding wires grounded. If you don't have separate buss bars, you can buy the separate on at most places that sell panels and breakers.

(quoted from post at 20:04:40 02/08/10) Mark, I'm not sure I follow you here. At the panel in the barn, you removed the grounding wires from the grounding buss bar but left the neutrals attached to the grounding buss bar and then grounded that bar to the ground rod. That fixed your 2 volts on the waterer. Correct me if I misquoted you.

What did you do with grounding wires that are with the wire runs throughout the barn? They need to be bonded together with a ground rod.

I suspect your problem was that the neutrals and ground wires were on the same buss which is what was done on some old panels. The newer way is to have a separate neutral/grounded buss bar for neutrals only and a separate grounding buss bar for the bare or green colored wire grounding wires that are with your wire runs and probably nm wire. When separate grounded/neutral and grounding buss bars are used, there is screw on that neutral/grounded buss somewhere that is screwed in so it contacts the metal of the panel box to which the grounding buss bar is attached.

I guess you need to clarify which type of buss bar system your panel has and how you have the grounding wires grounded. If you don't have separate buss bars, you can buy the separate on at most places that sell panels and breakers.

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What he said was that he separated the neutrals and grounds, and in the end, grounds & panel box are tied to ground rod(s). Neutrals all alone, by themselves.

Communications with words is so difficult. Drawings are nice.

Ok, i'm looking at the illustrated. I figured the illustrated would be easier in this topic. What it says is you must have a Equipotential Plane over the area. It is a slab of concrete with wire mesh either embedded or under the concrete that puts the animal at the same electrical potential as the rest of the electrical system. The wire mesh is then bonded to the water trough also along with the pump being bonded (if it has a place to bond it to the rest of the system. The recepticle that feeds the pump must also be connected to a GFCI. Also according to NEC 250.6B you can make a grounding provision to prevent objectionable current by removing the grounding going to your water pump and installing a ground rod by your water pump and grounding it to that, and you must also make sure your water tank is also bonded to ground by using at least a #8 wire. I hope this helps. Also if you would like a nice isolation transformer here is where I used to get mine for installs http://www.altex.com/Tripp-Lite-2400-Watt-Line-Conditioner-AVR-System-LCR-2400-P139682C10753.aspx

Yeah except when the ground under the cement dries up it will stop working.

Have the electric company put on an isolater. Fixed our problems

A ground plane is great, but unless it extends to the whole farm, you have to teach the cows to jump on or off it, not touching earth away from the ground plane while touching earth above the ground plane. That's more than a little difficult.

Gerald J.

For those persons who believe that ground and neutral are the same/identical/interchangeable. Read this entire post started by Mark Warden.
And people wonder what is hazardous when tinkers connect the neutral from standby generator to a ground wire/ground prong?

Never remove the neutral. The ground is only a safety for electricity to travel down if the neutral were to become disconnected. When i was thinking about the ground plane, I had envisioned an area around the water tank for the cows to walk upon when they get a drink. What this all really boils down to is as long as the cows are at the same potential as the water trough they will not get shocked. You could have 1000 volts at the water trough, but as long as the ground is also 1000 volts they will not get shocked. Same with why birds do not get shocked while sitting on a 25kV telephone wire. They are at the same potential as the wire.

Simple.. Cut the main power on the transformer at the pole. If you still have the voltage it is the power companies problem.

JMOR, I see that now after reading all of Mark's posts. Drawings always help. Apparently his panel box had the neutrals and grounds combined on the same buss bars which used to be common with a service entrance panel. Mark didn't say anything about buying a new grounding buss bar and installing it in the panel and didn't really explain how he connected the grounds and panel to the ground rods. More of a code issue than a functional issue. I just didn't if he twist tied them all together with the ground rod wire.

Mark didn't remove the neutral. He isolated the neutral from the grounding system so the live neutral wouldn't energize the grounding system.
#1 Most people assume a ground wiring system is always at true earth potential which is false.
#2 Most people assume that the ground system is capable of bringing a neutral conductor's voltage down to true earth potential,false again.
No remote sub panel(s) away from the either the 1st electrical panel should have the ground and neutral bonded.
If there is central metering in the middle of the yard with more than one building/panel being supplied. The only neutral to ground bond should be at the meter/pole. All the distribution panels should not have the neutral and ground bonded.
Of course having a sound and functional ground system at each building service is vital.
Bad enough some old corroded #10 bare wire and a rusty 6ft long ground rod into frozen sand. Two 10ft ground rods at least 10ft apart joined with #6 copper is absolute minimum.
Still a hazardous situation when some jackleg electrician connects a standby generator neutral to the ground on a welder receptacle.
Also bad news if the same tinkerer needs 120V on a machine with only two live lines and a ground. The intrepid tinkerer incorrectly wires the 120V load's neutral to ground and one live line. The tinkerer doesn't realize he has just energized the grounding system above true earth potential.
Even with a good ground system let alone the typical ground system found in the real world. Putting neutral current on the ground system makes the grounding system hot. They do insulate that neutral wire with white insulation for a reason you know.

bc, sorry if it was not clear, I removed the bare copper ground wires from the neutral buss bar and hooked all bare copper ground wires together, leaving the neutrals all hooked to the buss bar. (Since I only had six circuits I only had six bare copper ground wires. I brought them all together with the wire from the ground rod and use a large wire crimp to crimp them together.) You are right about this comment: When separate grounded/neutral and grounding buss bars are used, there is a screw on that neutral/grounded buss somewhere that is screwed in so it contacts the metal of the panel box to which the grounding buss bar is attached. I removed this screw from the neutral buss bar, if you don't you still have the neutral and grounds attached through it. Then I grounded the breaker box with the bare copper ground wire on the way out of my breaker box to the ground rod.

Glad you got it going Mark. Hope the cattle are drinking ok.

This isn't necessarily for you but for the lurkers out there reading along or those who find this in the archives next year.

Code does limit the number of wires that can be spliced together in a panel. I don't remember off the top of my head how many though. When you splice a number of wires together there is a chance that one may break or something affecting the bond.

Most older panels were wired with the neutral/white wire and the ground/bare wires going to the same buss bar. Still being done by electricians.

They still sell panels without a grounding buss bar but the box will usually say to buy it separately. The size based upon the number of breakers the panel can hold.

It is just good panel practice to run the black hot conductor to the breakers, the white neutral to the neutral buss bar (usually there is one on each side of the panel, and a grounding bar along the bottom for the bare ground wires. Particularly helps when using GFCI and AFCI breakers.

You can pick this earth up with a piece of wire,that is, if you can divine water.did this with my pole, electric coy came out with their bells , whistles and lights and got the same result.two wires running off at 9 and 3 oclock [12 oclock facing west]for about 10 feet then attached to a ground rod, all underground.I presume it's an earth.