Hey guys I always wondered overall what makes a tractor engine, whether it be diesel or gas, different then those in automobiles? Are tractor engines made with more durable parts since many are used in very dusty conditions? I know they work in a totally different RPM band so perhaps cam designs are much different? Overall just a curiosity of mine.
- Thread starter LJS30
- Start date
Good subject. I think some of it is tractor engins are set up to operate at a lower R.P.M.s than automotive engins they are set up to operate best at W.O.T. and relativly low R.P.M.s autos are made for higher revs and a wider range of R.P.Ms farm engins are also mostly free of pollution controlls untill recent modles the tractor stuff also had bigger cooling systems and oil sumps
RandyB(MI)
Well-known Member
An auto engine might make it's max rated hp at 4500rpm where-as a tractor engine makes its max power at anywhere from 975 to 2200 rpm. they are made to sustain max power all day long in the field under load and will do it for many many years. Try running a car engine in a tractor in the field under load at 4500 rpm or higher if so rated , and see just how long it will last. If you throttle it back to 2000 rpm to make it last then it won't have enough torque to pull through a mud hole. A car engine is designed to have great reserve power for just short spurts when you need it and the rest of the time it "loafs". Tractor engines are made to work all day and car engines are made to loaf all day unless needed to get through a yellow light or occasional drag race.
Farm equipment is (or at least once was) considered industrial equipment. True industrial equipment is designed to be used all day everyday.
Auromobiles and light trucks are consumer goods and are not designed for such usage. Automotive engines as well as light truck engines (both gasoline and diesel) are so-called throw away engines.
Dean
Auromobiles and light trucks are consumer goods and are not designed for such usage. Automotive engines as well as light truck engines (both gasoline and diesel) are so-called throw away engines.
Dean
Doug in Illinois
Member
Yep, most "car" engines have more HP than a "tractor" engine. But torque is the big difference.
Think about this for a minute: F20 Farmall only rated at 20.7 HP drawbar and 28.0 pulley. But it would handle 3 14 or 2 16 plow all day long with power to spare.
Try that with your garden tractor rated at 20 HP.
DOUG
Think about this for a minute: F20 Farmall only rated at 20.7 HP drawbar and 28.0 pulley. But it would handle 3 14 or 2 16 plow all day long with power to spare.
Try that with your garden tractor rated at 20 HP.
DOUG
Don't get these guys started about gearing and what can be done because of it....it's a lost cause.... Still I know what you mean. In fact there is a display at Discovery Place in Charlotte (a hands on learning place for kids)that shows the power of gearing. They have a heavy, galvanized metal trash can set up under a crusher. There is a small dial that you can turn with one finger that goes through a large gear set in order to operate the crusher. On the crusher head is a big dial indicator set up so you can see how far the head is moving. I don't know how many turns exactly it takes but it seem like it takes forever turning the little knob to make it move a few thousands. One thing about it though, with enough turns by enough little hands the thing eventually crushes the can flat.....and it's all thanks to gearing.....
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
Interestingly, tractor engines and aircraft engines are quite similar in design, although the latter are air-cooled. Both are intended to operate at rated power indefinitely, so horsepower takes a back seat to reliability.
Tractor engines tend to have much longer stroke as compared to bore - then a car or pickup truck engine. Long stroke allows good low-end torque.
It's also why the Cummins diesels were so popular when they first showed up in Dodge pickups. They were the only true HD, long-stroke engine around in consumer vehicles (same engine also used in some tractors).
Also, most tractor engines also serve as part of the tractor frame and hold the front ends on - and sometimes also support front loaders. So, those blocks have to be extra heavy.
Tractor engines also, as most other HD engines, are "derated" in power output specs since they are intended to make high power much of the time - unlike most cars and trucks.
But to be fair, HD truck engines get a similar rating called "B" rating - when they ARE tested in full-time HD use.
By the way, some tractors have car engines - like the Allis Chalmers ED40, or Massey Ferguson with the Standard Diesel - which was also used in small British cars.
It's also why the Cummins diesels were so popular when they first showed up in Dodge pickups. They were the only true HD, long-stroke engine around in consumer vehicles (same engine also used in some tractors).
Also, most tractor engines also serve as part of the tractor frame and hold the front ends on - and sometimes also support front loaders. So, those blocks have to be extra heavy.
Tractor engines also, as most other HD engines, are "derated" in power output specs since they are intended to make high power much of the time - unlike most cars and trucks.
But to be fair, HD truck engines get a similar rating called "B" rating - when they ARE tested in full-time HD use.
By the way, some tractors have car engines - like the Allis Chalmers ED40, or Massey Ferguson with the Standard Diesel - which was also used in small British cars.
Back when I was a diesel mechanic, the company I worked for ran mostly N14 cummins engines. The ECM could be set with either an "automotive" type governor or a "variable speed" governor.
An automotive gov. will not account for different load conditions on the engine. So for example when your going up a hill you press the foot pedal down further.
A variable speed gov. will try to maintain a given engine rpm @ given throttle angle no matter what the load is on the engine.
Thats the biggest difference between tractor and transportation engines in my opinion.
An automotive gov. will not account for different load conditions on the engine. So for example when your going up a hill you press the foot pedal down further.
A variable speed gov. will try to maintain a given engine rpm @ given throttle angle no matter what the load is on the engine.
Thats the biggest difference between tractor and transportation engines in my opinion.
colekicker
Member
I know in oil presentations we talk about how much
of an engines available horsepower is used. Cars us
e 30%, Over the road trucks use 60% and Tractors use
90%.
You never hear about a farmer asking for a smaller
plow.
of an engines available horsepower is used. Cars us
e 30%, Over the road trucks use 60% and Tractors use
90%.
You never hear about a farmer asking for a smaller
plow.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Put either tractor on a pto generator, would you see any difference? No, other than the new engine may even burn less fuel per HP per hour.
Now instead of comparing apples to oranges. Try the different engines in the identical chassis.
3X14" with a farmall 20 ? You must be in sandy soil.
Now instead of comparing apples to oranges. Try the different engines in the identical chassis.
3X14" with a farmall 20 ? You must be in sandy soil.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Then my trucks gas engine should be good for 10,000+hrs.
125,000miles and 3500hrs currently. Today any old gas engine going 300,000 miles raises no raised eyebrows or surprised looks.
Used to be 20-30 yrs ago, highway diesels were about worn out at those miles.
Now highway diesels with all the complex emissions equipment, filtration, urea injection, 20,000psi injectors/pumps. It's going to get real expensive to limp them to 300,000 miles. Without having the check engine light on.
125,000miles and 3500hrs currently. Today any old gas engine going 300,000 miles raises no raised eyebrows or surprised looks.
Used to be 20-30 yrs ago, highway diesels were about worn out at those miles.
Now highway diesels with all the complex emissions equipment, filtration, urea injection, 20,000psi injectors/pumps. It's going to get real expensive to limp them to 300,000 miles. Without having the check engine light on.
Your forgetting IHs engines that were in both truck and tractors. The IH 560 engines were in trucks and the DV550 and 800. As far as most tractor engines being part of the frame, wouldnt you say its about half and half?
Cummins 5.9 engines are in alot of self propelled sprayers and tons of other stuff.They have to be the most popular diesel out there.
Cummins 5.9 engines are in alot of self propelled sprayers and tons of other stuff.They have to be the most popular diesel out there.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Tractor engines are designed for the highest torque at low RPM's. Torque is a more important part for the loads on a tractor. HP relates to speed in a car engine. A car engine only makes good power at high RPM's. Diesel are a little different though and similar to tractor engines. Dave
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
Doug, Horsepower is horsepower. HP = torque x rpm. The reason tractors have high torque for a given horsepower is that they produce their rated horsepower at low rpm. Once it gets to the rear wheels, the engine torque is irrelevant because gear reduction has made the torque at the axle identical for the high rpm/low torque engine as for the low rpm/high torque engine.
The big reason your farm tractor will out-pull a garden tractor is weight. Garden tractors are never rated at the drawbar because they can't get much power to the drawbar. A 20 hp garden tractor would be lucky to get 10 hp to the drawbar. Another thing is that tractor engines tend to have a nice, flat torque curve so you don't have to downshift when the going gets tough and the engine lugs down. But as long as you can keep a fast engine running at rated rpm it can do just as much work as a slower engine.
The big reason your farm tractor will out-pull a garden tractor is weight. Garden tractors are never rated at the drawbar because they can't get much power to the drawbar. A 20 hp garden tractor would be lucky to get 10 hp to the drawbar. Another thing is that tractor engines tend to have a nice, flat torque curve so you don't have to downshift when the going gets tough and the engine lugs down. But as long as you can keep a fast engine running at rated rpm it can do just as much work as a slower engine.
No one mentioned that most tractor engines have replaceable cylinder liners (sleeves) that, theoretically, allow an engine block to be overhauled an unlimited number of times and on each overhaul the engine will be brought back to original factory specs. Same size pistons, rings, etc. The famous Ford N engine was one half of the Ford flat head V8 block but in the tractor version it was fitted with dry replaceable cylinder liners, something the car did not have. In the Funk V8 conversion of the Ford N however, the standard auto version of the flathead V8 was installed giving the little rascal somewhere between 85 and 100 HP. That would be fun to have but a little pricey and I don't know what I would do with one other than mow the lawn at about 80 mph.
greenbeanman in Kansas
Well-known Member
I fully agree about the RPMs. My dad purchased a Massey Ferguson tractor at auction for $500 in the 1970s.
Having nearly always run Minneapolis Moline tractors that turn less than 2,000 RPMs neither of us could get used to the higher RPM engine of the MF and and lower RPMs it seemed terribly weak. It was a propane version and I used a fuel/exhaust meter to set for proper fueling mixture.
We finally traded it off to the Bud Humphrey dealership for a propane tank to sell along with retail credit at his hardware store totaling an allowance of all adding up to $1,000. Thanks Bud Humphrey dealership!
With the sale of the propane tank dad got a new riding mower and I got it old one. We also get all sorts of new power tools and hand tools and a ladder. Most of which are still in use.
We all felt like we came out ahead on that deal.
Having nearly always run Minneapolis Moline tractors that turn less than 2,000 RPMs neither of us could get used to the higher RPM engine of the MF and and lower RPMs it seemed terribly weak. It was a propane version and I used a fuel/exhaust meter to set for proper fueling mixture.
We finally traded it off to the Bud Humphrey dealership for a propane tank to sell along with retail credit at his hardware store totaling an allowance of all adding up to $1,000. Thanks Bud Humphrey dealership!
With the sale of the propane tank dad got a new riding mower and I got it old one. We also get all sorts of new power tools and hand tools and a ladder. Most of which are still in use.
We all felt like we came out ahead on that deal.
Wasn't forgetting; just being brief.
I used to drive an IH Scout with a Nissan/Datsun industrial turbo-diesel in it.
The fact is, many tractor engines were used in cars and trucks at one time. More common in the 1930s and 1940s, but still a few in the 1960s - 1990s. Checker cab, Jeep, IH, Nissan/Datsun, Renault, etc. Checker and Jeep used the 236 Perkins for awhile around 1968.
Dodge used a Misubishi 6 cylinder irrigation-pump diesel in 1/2 ton full size pickups in 1978.
Chevrolet put the same 236 Perkins diesels into C10 pickups when sold overseas in 1982.
There are probably others that don't come to mind at the moment.
At some point in time, car makers decided it was cheaper to convert existing car gas-engines into diesels so driveline components would match. Isuzu was one of the first and they did a good job of it. Isuzu PUP diesel trucks, Isuzu diesel Troopers, Chevy diesel LUVs, Chevy diesel S10s, and Chevy diesel Chevettes all used gas engines that Isuzu converted to diesels. I'm still driving my 81 Chevette diesel.
I used to drive an IH Scout with a Nissan/Datsun industrial turbo-diesel in it.
The fact is, many tractor engines were used in cars and trucks at one time. More common in the 1930s and 1940s, but still a few in the 1960s - 1990s. Checker cab, Jeep, IH, Nissan/Datsun, Renault, etc. Checker and Jeep used the 236 Perkins for awhile around 1968.
Dodge used a Misubishi 6 cylinder irrigation-pump diesel in 1/2 ton full size pickups in 1978.
Chevrolet put the same 236 Perkins diesels into C10 pickups when sold overseas in 1982.
There are probably others that don't come to mind at the moment.
At some point in time, car makers decided it was cheaper to convert existing car gas-engines into diesels so driveline components would match. Isuzu was one of the first and they did a good job of it. Isuzu PUP diesel trucks, Isuzu diesel Troopers, Chevy diesel LUVs, Chevy diesel S10s, and Chevy diesel Chevettes all used gas engines that Isuzu converted to diesels. I'm still driving my 81 Chevette diesel.
Respectfully, I don"t agree with your statement about the similarity between aircraft engines and tractor engines.
Aircraft engines are designed to have very high power to weight ratios and max power is limited to 5 minutes per flight cycle. There are other rated powers for engine out situations and for maximum cruise power.
Not so for tractor engines.
Aircraft engines are designed to have very high power to weight ratios and max power is limited to 5 minutes per flight cycle. There are other rated powers for engine out situations and for maximum cruise power.
Not so for tractor engines.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Don't forget that Massey put a GM 350 in the gas versions of the 750 combine.
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