Any thoughts and suggestions? LOng post

What A night. Wind in excess of 45 mph Snow, rain. Trees went down and off went the power. NO Lights, pump, furnance motor,Refrigerator computer,any household appliance. Power went out about 4.30 -7pm. Fired up the generator,then the line power came back on, then 5 min later, off again for over 18 hrs.Now that was a workout for our 5,000 watt generator, several years back I wired a panel box in the garage using a 75 Amp 2 pole breaker in the main house panel box out to the garage with another box with a 65 amp 2 pole breaker,wired with # 6=3 in underground conduit. So when the generstor is needed, we cut off the 200 amp main panel breaker and trip off the Electg range,water heater breakers, any appliance that uses 220 volts.That way we have power for the needed items, furnance, lights water pump Micro wave. We shut dpwn the computer so we wouldn"t damage it with surges from the generator. We notify the power company we are using the generator and to call us when they get the power restored, so we wont back feed to the main line hurting the linemen. Now the question arrises for me, I wonder how long that generator will last with similar episodes in the future? Whole house power generators are well over our budget as of now, so the next best thing is a tractor driven generator for our 706 I.H.We have used our old system we have now for several power failures over the last 5 years with out any problems, but I figure it"s about time for Murphys Law to kick in.Now I"m considering the tractor set up for whole house power. Does any of you guys use such a system when you loose power, and how is that system grounded ?Just got our 2010 winter catalog from Northern Tool(master Catalog)and they do handle all sorts of power generators. Most are way to pricey but a couple are barely within our budget. Would like one that is above the 5000 watt series, and can handle ,say an electric range so we could at least cook a meal with out bringing out the gas cylinder small 2 burner camp stove. Thinking along the lines of a auto cut out/cut in switch. Saves tripping the main breaker in the house panel box.Listening to the generator hum is nerve racking after 6 hrs of operation but we can put up with it,if we can have power.Our generator is in the garage and we leave the service door open to remove the carbon monoxide(sp)fumes while it"s running thus the nerve racking DRONE. We are trying for a building this summer, so price had everything to do with any generator purchase. Would appreciate your feed back on the units you guys use.Thanks in advance LOU.

we leave the generators out on the carports built onto the house on both sides. Noise still there but not like you have it.

I assume from your post that your garage is NOT attached to your house. Naturally one should never run a generator in an attached garage.

You're sure gonna catch #*%% when Buick gets here!

First off get that generator out of the garage when you're running it before you kill someone.

Those automatic start whole house gennys are sweet but run $7000 or more installed.

I installed a transfer panel for a buddy. I think his was 8 circuits. With a transfer panel you don't have to shut off the main since the circuits that run off the genny are manually switched from grid power to genny power. His transfer panel came with a short cord to plug into the genny. We used rubber covered wire like a heavy drop cord to lengthen the power cord so his genny can sit outside while its running. We wired circuits for his well pump, furnace, freezer, kitchen circuit (included stove, micro,fridge), sump pump and living room (lights,TV, stereo).

I recommend getting a transfer panel. Sell your old genny and put the proceeds with whatever you already have budgeted towards a new genny thats the appropriate size for your needs.
I don't think a pto genny is practical for what you describe. Can your wife hook up a pto genny to the tractor if you're not home? Plus it would tie up your tractor that you may need for other tasks.
I wouldn't worry about racking up too much run time on your genny. I know contractors that use them on worksites for many years, and racers that use them in the pits to run lights and compressors. They rack up allot of hours on them. I'd be more concerned about one starting easily thats seldom used.

extend the hook up cables, and get that genset OUT of the garage.

What ever you do stay away from Generac or Guardian. Cheap to buy,but you will pay for it in the end.
You might want to look around for a used Onan or Kohler unit. Sometimes you can find Generator an Transfer switch at a good price.

Unless I need water for livestock, I just sit or sleep in the dark for a few hours. In fact I got a 7200 watt generator that stays hooked on the well at the farm and we still sit in the dark in the house.

Went 72 hours one time with outside temp in the 30's. Had one little kerosine heater that kept the house around 60 or so. Most every thing in the freezer and fridge were fine.

No one had generators 20 years ago and we all survived.

Our small generator died during Hurricane Ike in 2008, so I had to stand in line at Home Depot and bought a 8.5 kw Generac. Of course, the power came back on after a day instead of being out for a week like they had been saying.
Afterwards I had the electrician come out and install a transfer switch and an outlet so we set the generator out in the carport and plug it into the house panel directly. Sounded good on paper but after the electrician installed everything and we plugged in the generator, the breaker on the generator would immediately trip. electrician said it was faulty, so we took it back for warranty service. Service center said it was fine, took it home and still wouldn't work. Made several calls to Generac, who swore that it should be working for our application. To make a long story short, it turned out that OSHA now requires all "commercial" generators to have built in GFI on 220 side(which is what we were connecting into the service panel) and with the GFI, it won't let it feed into the house box. So after two trips to get generator serviced and three visits from the electrician, the final solution was to bypass the GFI breaker on the generator and now it works as intended. Generac was of no help at all, the representatives we talked to had no idea about the GFI situation. I'm not an electrician, so maybe I don't have the story exactly straight, but I know that it was a two month ordeal that ended up costing way more than I expected - those transfer switches are not cheap.

please for the safety of the electric line workers get a transfer switch installed, and get that genny out of the garage. personally i would only wire up the circuits that you would need the most if the power were to go out. those tractor driven units are nice, they had 1 on the dairy i worked at and it was under a small lean too on the side of the milk house when needed we just backed the tractor up and hooked it up and we were back in business.

I got a similar setup to hook my 4000 watt el-cheapo Builders Square $399. generator up when my power goes out. I think it was about 1985 when I brought the generator. I also have a little 2000 watt honda invertor. My main concern is water, fridgerator, freezer, and a little heat in the winter. I don't ussually hook the bigger one up untill maybe after 24 hrs without electric. The system has served me well although my power doesn't go out too often and can't remember the last time it was out over twelve hours. I start the big one up about every 6mo. and run it some just to keep it ready. Last time it went out, last summer, I just hooked the 2000 watt up to my camper, made a pot of coffee, turned on the tv, and kicked back for a few hours until it came back on.

If you don't like the drone of a small generator, you're going to HATE the bark of a 706 running a PTO generator all night.

Do you have neighbors? They're going to run you out of town on a rail after the first power outage, and you fire up that 706.

Plus, it's going to use a LOT more fuel, which could be a problem if there's a major disaster and gasoline becomes scarce.

Is the only reason for the bigger generator to power the electric range? If it were me, I'd rethink my priorities.

Two things I'd change:
1. Get a REAL transfer switch.

Even if you turn off the 200A main panel breaker, I have read that there is a very real possibility that you are still backfeeding into the power grid. Whether it's a myth or true, it's not worth anyone's life.

2. Get that generator out of the garage!

Just having the door open isn't enough. You need THROUGH ventilation. If the wind is coming from the right direction with the door open, it just acts as a "ram air" scoop and pushes the exhaust right into the house!

There are so many different ways to have a back-up system, it's too much to stick in one of these posts. But Lou, don't you have tractors or crawlers with PTOs? If so, probably you're best buy would be a used PTO generator. Nice thing is, it has no second engine to worry about. They can often be bought in the $500 range.

Second to that is buying a used, older, full-size water-cooled genset. I get many chances to buy them cheap. That because they are not portable. These are usually built very durable. I paid $100 for my Fairbanks-Morse 17KW unit that's powered by a four-cylinder, water-cooled, Continental gas engine.

If you really have fairly long-term backup in mind, you have to use something that runs on fuel that you can get, when you need it - or have on hand. If you have propane or heating oil on-site, then pick a propane or diesel powered unit. No genset does you much good without fuel.

For me, nothing beats solar-panels and battery back-up. Takes over automatically, no noise, no fuel to worry about, etc. But, you've got to buy new batteries around every 10 years along with the initial cost of the electronics. Right now, you'd get a Federal tax-break if you did it before the year ends.

In regard to ground - if you use a PTO generator, you can have a small shed built over it for weather protection, and tie it into your house ground system - OR - put in a separate ground system with two rods if a building separate from your house.

One thing to keep in mind. Any AC powered generatort that is big enough to supply the power you need at high amp-draws (like running an electric stove), is going to be a dog on fuel when electric demand is NOT high. That is the curse of AC generators. They have to run at full speed to make the proper Hertz-cycle.

To the converse, a DC generator can run at any speed. So, it only has to rev up enough to meet electric demand. DC generators make DC power at the generator head, and then convert to AC though a good inverter. Thus the title of "inverter" generators.

If you really want to get quality for you money, but an older AC-Delco diesel power genset. You can pick them up for $2500 and they are the most rugged gensets ever built in that size range. Detroit-Diesel powered, water-cooled, and they run very slow at around 1300 RPM. 13KW to 20KW size. With a good load, they use 1 gallon per hour of diesel fuel.

By the way, you are probably going to get many angry comments and doom-stories about "back-feeding" your genset into you panel. The truth is - linemen are supposed to treat all wires as "hot, ground suspect wires before working on them, and . . . if you ever actually hooked a 5000 watt genset to a wire actually hooked to the grid, it burnt out or pop a breaker immediately.
It CAN be done safely, but has no fool-proof safeguards built in. So, yeah, like many things, can also be dangerous.

Again, pick a fuel that you think you'll have on hand, and work from there. Propane is one of the most in-efficient ways to go, but . . . if you have a large propane storage tank, it may be worth you while anyway.

On a side-note, I know of several people now that have converted old gasoline gensets to run on firewood. That's going to be my next project. Any genset with a true HD long-stroke gasoline engine can be converted to run on wood-smoke.

One more comment. If you worried about running a genset and not knowing when the power comes back on?? Here's the "poor man's way" to do it. Wire an outlet into the power-company's side of your main entrance panel. That is, on the grid-sice of power before your main breaker. Then leave a radio plugged into it with the volume turned all the way up. Even if down the basement, you'll hear it when the grid comes back on. We did it for years. We have no neighbors, so we were clueless when the power came back on. This way, we DID know, and would shut the generator down when the radio started blasting.

We use battery backup with solar now, and it's seemless and quiet. We also have 1000 gallons of propane and 1200 gallons of diesel on site. So, if I ever had to, it would be very easy to make power with fuel.

Just a suggestion here, all my farm neighbours that have generators trip their main switch to the hydro line off before they start their generators...this ensures no feed back through the line. I would be concerned that someone might forget to tell the linesmen...pulling the main switch gives you peace of mind.
I can't really comment on your situation, it depends on how often you have an outage but the only people who have elaorate systems are a couple of dairy farms that have tractor powered generators which powers their entire operation. I live in town and once in a while we have an outage,our woodstove,Coleman lantern and such negates the need for a generator. I understand your situation. Cattle absolutely have to have water, living in a rural situation has a different set of rules.The power companies are good at getting things up and running often within a few hours. From what I see from my rural farming friends a PTO power generator works well.

LOU from Wi,
lots of good advice on here. Only thing I would add is that the transfer switch should be a priority for you. Considering what you've spent on other projects, I would think that between $100-200 would not be a big deal to put out for peace of mind and ease of use. I've got a 6-circuit hooked to a outlet on the OUTSIDE of my house where I plug my generator in. I've got 20 circuits in my panel and picked 6 for backup that give me all the essentials (furnace, frig, etc.) plus an outlet and lite in every room in the house.

When I rebuilt after a tornado, I ran an extra set of 220 to the pole shed. I set was for hard wiring the shed for everything, and the second set wired to a seperate panel wired to the pto generator. Allows ne to keep the tractor and generator in the shed out of the weather. Just leave the doors open to allow the exhaust out. All i have to do is flip the arm on the transformer box to switch between my back up or the rural electric power.

The GFI on my Honda generator will trip when I hook it to my 220V deep well pump. I have a small light bulb in the well hut for heat. If I unplug it, the GFI is happy. The bulb is obviously using the ground as a neutral and the GFI doesn't like it. Your GFI might be sensing some voltage on the ground terminal from a similar situation at your house.

When the power goes down in severe cold WX, I use a small kerosene lantern for well hut heat.

Paul

Thanks Warren,We appreciate the idea of putting it in our pole shed,out of the weather. As hopefully in the spring we can get ours built.We will keep this and all other examples in mind.
Warmest reguards,
Lou

Thanks JD,
Long post or not, I really appreciate your input.Definately give me ALOT to think of.We do have the 706 gas with a PTO(both 540 and 1000rpm),but that is the only equipment we have with a PTO.The OC 46 doesn't have one on it,could probablly add one on,but that would be more $$.
We were thinking of a LP or propane unit, as diesel or gasoline would probably go bad if we stored it for using for the generator only,a PTO gen. for the tractor would also work as we could get gasoline for it when needed.But about the older detroit diesel 13-20kw, how hard is(if you know) to get replacement parts,such as the electrical parts for generator? Do you have to run them every so often to keep things from locking up and corroding?
As for LP or propane units,As I said, just now looking into them, the Generac air cooled units(in Northern tool catalog) are there problems with burning out the engines without having it be water cooled?
Are all generators now a brushless design, or do you have to have a couple of sets on hand for spares?
I thank you again for ALL the info you have given us to think about.
Warmest reguards,
LOU

Thanks Michael,Up where we live, the power company is SOMETIMES good at getting the power back on,but we did go without power at on time for 28 days straight,No generator,but it was summertime,so no heat was needed and I was much,much younger, and in better health.The way we have our Generator hooked up now,you throw the main disconnect off on the 200 amp breaker box,then go out to the way dettached (30Ft)garage pull the generator out and put it next to the service door(open) get it started,plug in the supply cord into the outlet, flip the breaker to on for getting the juice to the house,and then wait for the phone call from the power company to let you know the power is back on, then go out and shut down the generator. I really appreciate your reply,Warmest reguards,
LOU

We had a licensed electrician do the work, and the problem stumped him, so he called in his boss to help figure out what was going on. Before we were done, they had called their boss (the owner) to help figure out why the generator breaker kept tripping. They brought their own generator out to try it, and it did the same thing. Apparently, although a GFI on the 110 side is standard, the GFI on the 220 side was relatively new requirement at the time and they were not aware of the GFI on the 220 side. The Generac customer service people didn't even know that their generators had it! My electricians took this problem as a personal challange and spent a lot of time testing, they didn't charge me for the extra time they spent trying to figure it out. All their tests showed that there were no problems with the house service, that the problem had to be the generator, and of course the generator repair shop kept saying that there was no problem with the generator.
At the end, I was told that the GFI breaker tripping didn't mean that there was a problem with the house wiring, but that the generator wasn't meant to be plugged into the house service in that manner. Would it have worked if we would have provided the generator with its own ground?

Thanks DoubleR, Thats what we bought was a Generator from Menards 5000 watt,must have been around $3-400.00 on sale. With that in mind, don't know how much quality and reliabilty can be purchased for that amount.LOL.Up here we can never tell when the power will go out, had it happen in all 4 seasons, winter being the worst, Cold weather just makes you want to stay in and keep that way.Finding the best and easiest way to do it (for us) without being at the mercy of weather, and power company. Thatnks for your post,Warmest reguards,LOU

Thanks Dan,
Sounds like you had an ordeal,we was looking at the GENERAC back up gen for us. The wiring we could do,but hate to think of all the safety crap they put out on paper sounds good until its put into use in the real world.Now with all the other info we get on here(many good ideas) we will figure out what will work the best for us.Some of the units we looked at included the transfer switch,some don't, and they do get quite expensive,as you said. Thanks for your reply,Warmest reguards,LOU

Thanks IA Gary,
Since I have gotten older,I like some of the comforts of today,I don't like trying to walk in the dark,or with candle or oil lamp, with Diabetes(stubbing foot or falling) and then have the foot amputated for lack of seeing where I'm going.Plus laying in a hospital healing up,like I said before, we went 28 days without power when I was younger, and enjoyed it, but now is a different story.It's almost the same theory as we should stay with the same technology of 20 years ago, health care,technology,farming.Just doing what I can to be safe for me.Thanks for the post,LOU

Thanks Billy,
Are the Generac and Guardians bad? What type of problems have you had from them? I am still looking at different types and ideas from here and elsewhere,but appreciate your reply.Most of the newer ones we look at(whole house)have transfer switches included,some don't,so I know what you mean when you say they are expensive. Warmest reguards,LOU

Thanks rbel,
Our garage is detached(30ft) from the house.So no problem with CO poisoning.It is always run with the service door open and windows cracked open, so even the bugs and mice(if any) can't sue for death in the family(LOL).Warmest reguards,LOU

Thanks Bob, Buick can try,but we are playing it safe here. Warmest reguards,LOU

No MarkB_MI, definately Detached.

I used to do the 5-6000 watt genset with extension cord set up and it was needed quite often, sometimes for a week or so during ice storms and etc. It was a pain to set up, noisy and very limited.
About six years ago a local department store (Upton's) went out of business and I was there buying some fixtures from them for my retail store. They asked if I was interested in a genset, I asked about it and made them an offer on two of them including the auto switches. They took my offer and I picked them up, set one at my house and one at my Dad's house. They are Onan's with a Cummins diesel engine, cabinet and built in 100 gallon fuel tanks. They are both 30KW, have low hours and will run the complete house. I had an electrician friend install them and they have been great. When the electricity goes out for 3 seconds they fire right up and you are back in business. It will automatically switch back and power off after the grid is back on for 5 minutes steady. So keep your eyes open and look around at some of these businesses going out and you may pick up one of these for not much more than a name brand portable genset would cost you.

2X4, The service door faces the house and just reverberates, for a few hours it's not bad,but after a while, it kinda gets on your nerves,I know can't have my cake and eat it too. Just trying to have a way of powering everything we need and keep some hearing and nerves left LOL.
LOU

Dan, I don't know if a dedicated ground for your generator would have helped. My generator manual says to always ground the generator to a ground rod. I never have. . . I worked in construction for 33 years and never once saw a generator connected to a ground rod. The only time I have ever had the GFI trip is with the well pump/light bulb.

Paul

Billy, what problems have you had with Generac? I have a Generac 7500EXL electric start with 13,500 watts surge rating and 15 HP industrial gas engine. I power our entire rural residence with it. Biggest load is the start-up surge of the 220 volt, 3/4 HP well pump. I bought it in 2001 and it has had a lot of use for outages and for powering my electric chain saw anywhere on the property. Also this past summer after a tornado, I used it to power a food freezer (direct connection) for friends who lost their home to the tornado. It rain 6 hours straight on each of 2 consecutive days with no problems. I usually try to run it an hour a month ((if it hasn't been used for real work) with a small load to exercise it.

Lou, when you disconnect your main breaker from your power provider, you are not endangering the line men so no need to be concerned.

Lou and Ron
After thirty years of working on Generacs. This is why I say stay away from them.
1 Cheap to buy but the price of parts is where they get you.
2 Hard to get anyone to work on them.
3 Who knows what engine you will get.
4 Warranty is hit and miss. Mostly miss.
5 Factory support is very poor at best.
6 You may get one that runs just fine. Then you may get one that is a money pit.
7 Parts on some may take months to get. I worked on one at a hospital. Took us almost a year to find filters for it
8 I know some of their own dealers hate working on them.
9 High failure rate on some of the parts they use
10 If you are not a dealer. The factory will not talk to you. No matter how bad your problem is. I was at a nursing home that was having an odd problem. Called the factory told them generator is down and I have storms in town. Need advice on this new system. They told me to find a dealer and talk to him. Told them again unit is down storms in town. Nursing home has critical needs for back up power. They hung up on me.
11 Search the web and you will find almost no one that likes them. They are called Genajunk for a reason. This is what I have put up with over thirty years.

http://www.reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?TWB2012DR

Diesel fuel won't go bad. I've used when well over 10 years old with zero-problems. Main thing is, if you suspect there's any water in it, you need to add some bacteria-algae killer.

Propane is usually the absolute worst buy, when it comes to energy for the buck. But if you happen to live in one of those western areas where propane is half what it is here in NY, it might be a good idea. Here in NY, today's price is $2.50 for the lowest "bulk" rate, and $2.75 otherwise (per gallon). If you already have a large propane bulk tank, then getting a propane genset makes even more sense.

Generally speaking, the high-speed air-cooled Gensets do not have the lifespan, fuel efficiency, or quality of AC power output that the slower, water-cooled units have. But, since the air-cooled versions are likely much cheaper, it might not matter for what you want. The lower-quality power might not matter either. It mostly shows up when trying to use battery chargers, but some newer large appliances with complex electronics also can have trouble.

In regard to the Detroit-Diesel Delco gensets, you can get any part for them. In fact, you can get just about anything for most of the older gensets. New replacement parts just tend to be better, that's all. When I got my 1960-era Fairbanks Morse, the voltage regulator wasn't working properly. I bought a new universal, higher-tech reg that works great.

No matter what you get, you're always going to have the inherent issue of all AC gensets. If big, and you don't use big-demand power from them, they waste fuel. If small, you don't get big-demand power when you need it. One approach many people use is . . . to get a genset only sized big enough to run essentials in the house. Then have backups for other things that don't need electricity - i.e. non-hard-vented LP heaters, small propane or gas camp stove for cooking, etc. You mentioned wanted to use an electic range,and that can be a big power user. It would make more sense (to me) to forget the electric stove, and get a smaller generator. But, if you are not worried about fuel effeiency, that maybe you don't mind having a big genset. In my mind, I want to know I can keep going for a few days with no grid-power, if needed. Truth is, I could go for months, but I just happen to like having many backup systems.

Check out this Website for info on those Delco Gensets. Probably much more then what you've got in mind, but they're still impressive, even to read about. I've seen the 12KW units sell for $1500, now and then. That's a good-running take-out. Many places now refurbish them and resell.
This place I linked is one of the more pricey places, but has a lot of good info.

http://www.emerson2-71gm.com/services.html

buickanddeere,That will be for a new Generator,if and when we get one.It"s on the list.LOU

DScott, If I had your luck I'd buy a lottery ticketLOL. Then I wouldn't have to worry about generators and power outages. Thanks for the idea.LOU

The 706 has a sweet sound,and as to the neighbors, I don't care, The only way they will hear it is if they stop their screaming kids, 4 wheelers, and jet skis, or snowmobiles in winter,up and down the road all hours of the day and night.Wouldn't mention anytime around the 4th of July, sounds like WW3 in full bloom,at 2am,gets on my nerves,but they don't care, so why should I care what the neighbors think?

We have rethought our priorities, and this is on the top of the list, I am also one HE!! of a multitasker.
If Gas becomes scarce, we will use Carbite fumes for fuel.
Now for your priorities NUmbered 1 and 2. Heres our answer.
1.No need to get a real transfer switch until we get a real generator,
As for what you read about Main breaker panel,it doesn't. I also read ELVIS is alive and living in New Jersey.
2.I don't have to get the Generator out of our garage as it is detached and 30 ft from our house,all cement floor,walls and drywall ceiling. So the only way to get fumes into our house is to pipe it from the exhaust to the house. Thanks for your reply.LOU

jiminct, evidently you missed our information later that states our generator is in a detached concrete block garage(30ft) from the house. It has cement floors and drywall cieling, so it is about as fireproof as the Mojavi Desert.LOL We're trying to decide as to the tractor generator,LP powered or Full Diesel Generator,but thanks for your 2 cents, LOL, Warmest reguards,LOU

POPS1532, The generator stays where it is, IN THE DETACHED GARAGE. It is cement block constructed, about as fire proof as we can make it.
We will not be paying someone to install the generator,as we are more than capable. So your cost of $7000.00 is way high.Generators we priced so far have run around $2-3,000.00 including transfer switch and all.

I won't sell the only generator we have available now til I have the new one installed and working.

Alot of Farmers use the PTO Generators,for backup in remote buildings with no power source,but the ones we knew of either sold their property or passed on.So don't know how they worked for them,never asked.

As to the wife hooking up the gen to the tractor, it would never happen.Son is around,or daughter,or me to master that task.The tractor would be tied up for the time of powering up the house for important duties,other than that no worries.
Just don't like being without power for another 28 days(long time ago) ever again. Thanks,LOU

Jde. Thanks Again. GOing to give a look see at the link you provided.Our only problem is, when we were out of power for 28 straight days, it sure as he-- got tiresome trying to do cooking on an open pit and camp stove. Now that we jumped into the 20th century, (generators and such) we sure don't want a repeat performance of the 28 day episode EVER AGAIN.I feel that your information on any subject should be well taken as you BTDT.It wouldn't be a problem to do with out the Elect range for a couple of days, but with our luck, it would turn into another 28+ days again. So to head off that problem, it seems Bigger is better. I know I'm wrong there but from what I can read from your post. needing and wanting are two different animals. We just want some type of GOOD BACKUP that don't break the bank. You have been a great source for things and we do take your advice to heart and will look well into the generator mfgs. Parts are a necessity and help from the mfg when required is something that is a valuable asset. Thanks AGAIN Warmest reguards LOU & VICTOR

Lou,

Here is another option.
I found an old combine that was powered by propane, and robbed the engine. Engine all set up, radiator, vaporizer, charging system for battery, complete with governor for speed and belt drive output. Couple this to a generator head, either an older used American or cheaper Chinese head. You can use simple math to figure the efficient rpm for the engine and size pulleys accordingly. For not much money you can build a nice, water cooled, standalone generator. It would only be a matter of starting it, disconnecting from utility power, and throwing the breaker on your genset.

My neighbor bought a new 10KW Generac Guardian at Home Depot. It crapped out before it was a year old, and NO warranty. Some kind of circuit-board problem that never got fixed. This wasn't a portable rig. It was a fixed-mount, home standy-unit. Ends up, if you read the small print, all warranty is VOID if installed at a non-grid location. Basically, they are saying if you're going to use it too much, no warranty! In this case, the people have solar elecric power, and keep a generator around for those times when the sun doesn't shine for a week. Generator is basically used to charge up the battery bank. After that fiasco, they bought a much better Kubota-powered, water-cooled genset and love it. Been using it three years now and it's never skipped a beat. Another nice benefit was the Generac made inferior AC power and his battery charger only ran at 2/3 capacity when hooked to the Generac. With the new rig, it works perfect.

People living on solar panel can tell you more about generator quality then probably anyone else. That because they have to really use them a bit when the sun isn't shining.

http://www.backwoodssolar.com/ has a lot of good info. Prices aren't cheap, but lots of good information. Here's some of what they say about gensets. Just ignore the stuff about solar panels that does not relate to your situation.

"GENERATORS: It's important to have a GOOD engine driven generator— and then use it as little as possible.

LOW INITIAL COST: During dark snowy winters of some northern areas, you could not meet 100% power needs with solar even with 10 times more solar and batteries. There we design for 80 to 90 percent annual power from solar generation, and use other generation sources to make up the seasonal shortfall. Wind power, and seasonal flow water power can help, but most often folks use an engine generator and a fast battery charger.

Fuel, limited engine life, and maintenance, along with pollution and noise make a generator the highest cost of all energy sources. So we want to shorten the hours the generator is used. Larger battery banks accept charge faster than a small one; so with a large battery and a high rate battery charger you store more energy in less generator time. Do most generator charging in evening hours of highest power need. Wash clothes, vacuum, etc while the generator runs to charge the batteries.

ALL THE EXTRA POWER YOU WANT, when you want it: There will be times when you want to use more power than your system is designed for. You sized the solar panels conservatively, knowing you can add more or trade to a larger inverter. Meanwhile, high power demands for guest’s extra lights and laundry, for building projects, or pumping a deep well can be met by a generator.

PROPANE fuel fits residential use better than gasoline or diesel. Propane is connected from the same tank at the same pressure that supplies the home stove and water heater. No more running out of gas, handling fuel, or dirt or water getting in the fuel. Propane keeps longer than gasoline or diesel. The engine runs clean, oil stays cleaner. Exhaust is clean - no odor. Propane starts easily even in winter cold without a choke, so can be started and stopped from inside the house year round. Likewise, propane is easiest to connect to automatic start systems.

DIESEL fuel generators are preferred by some folks for durability. Kohler diesel generators have factory estimated 15,000 hours between rebuilds. These models are 1800 rpm, water-cooled, with a cast iron engine block. Absolutely top quality. If diesel fuel is a part of your current homestead's operation, consider one of these generators.


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CHOICE OF GENERATOR

A generator dedicated to a home need not be portable and should last a decade or two, run quietly and start easily from inside the house. When Backwoods Solar operated from the Willey's home, where the sun shines only a few days each winter month, our generator ran about 250 hours a year, all in the winter months, to guarantee sufficient power.

QUALITY, STATIONARY GENERATORS: Call for recommendations.

PORTABLE GENERATORS are designed to run power tools, and are not intended for electronic chargers or extensive running. Small low cost generators usually produce only a fraction of the expected battery charging amperes with most battery chargers and some standby inverters.

EXCEPTION: We recommend Electronic Inverter-based variable speed generators like the Honda EU6500i as well as the Yamaha 2800I or 3000iSE which can be purchased locally or on the internet. The engines are variable speed depending on the amount of load on the generator, extending engine life. The AC power is electronically created and is high quality true sine wave, so battery chargers typically deliver up to 100 amps, 12 volts (50 amps, 24 volts) with 3000 watt models and even more current with the 5000 and 7000 series by Honda.

Thanks 50 50 Ron, I knew that disconnecting the main wouldn't endanger any linemen, but seems like most here believe in wives tales. If their theory was true, even when you disconnect the breakers to work on your electrical wiring, you could still be electrocuted.Only happen if you are jumping before the main. Had to work a house that some idiot did,but my fault for not checking first.Thanks for the post and your info on your generac generator. LOU

Thanks for the Idea Kansa Cockshutt, all the ideas will definately help.Around here trying to find something a farmer has and is willing to part with is another story,But will keep it in mind. Appreciate your post.LOU

Thanks again JD, Your story about the neighbors generac,is something I don't want to have happen to me. A few more questions come to mind,
1. Are the big diesel generators bio fuel compatable or able to run the newer diesel substitute they are thinking of making? Or will they not run or lock up?
2.Even though we don't use propane or LP, do they make one that is water cooled?We can buy a 250 gallon tank for fairly cheap just for the generator.Should last for quite some time without risk of running out.

The idea of a little bigger is better has always worked for us,too big is definately out of the question,but I have found out it is better to have it and not use it, than not have it and need it.Size wise. Either in engine size or tractor size.
Again Jd thanks for your post.
LOU

Most diesel generators have in-line injection pumps. Those pumps are very durable and have no problem with alternative or low-lube fuels. Rotary injection pumps are the ones that have the problems. Even the old Detroit Diesels are basically the same technology as in-line pumps and are just as rugged.

By the way, the term "biofuel" has no real meaning ,by itself. Some people call WVO (waste vegetable oil) bio-fuel and it is often low lube and can cause big problems in rotary injection pumps. On the other hand, "certified biofuel" sold as highway fuel for diesel often has BETTER lube then standard diesel.

When it comes to new gensets and propane (or NG), the issue is this. Hardly anybody makes a HD water-cooled gas engine anymore. Too inefficient. So, you're not going to find new gensets with propane-fueled ,water-cooled tractor-type engines. The new gensets that ARE water-cooled and propane fueled usually have small Chevrolet(General Motors) engines in them. You can see one here:

http://www.hardydiesel.com/propane-generators.html

If you hooked a generator in that manner on our REA lines, you would be kicked out of the co-op. Disconnect switch is mandatory. No need to rewire a lot, picking circuits and appliances- just extra expense. Don"t run what the gen can"t handle. I bought a new 25/45 kw Winpower pto gen in the 70s for about $1800- now they sell used for $4-500. Never a repair on it. Will start a 10hp motor. 3020 or D17 was plenty of power for running the 70 cow dairy, WD could handle lighter loads. Mounted on two wheel trailer, portable for welding around the farm.

Thanks again JD,
Like I said just a couple of questions that popped into my mind.Figured you would have the answers, figure it's safe to ask now than later, after we got one and ruined something.Sorry about the bio fuel word, it's just what I heard it called in our neck of the woods,as I said before,not too familiar with diesel engines,as long as they work I didn't care,but working on them, you could say the crank muffler went out and I couldn't disagree LOL.From injectors and pumps,along with anything else I'm stupified. Not that I can't learn,just never took the time to get into it, gas engines are in all of what I own in everything.With our heating oil and diesel prices around here ranging from $3.00 up for diesel and $2.89 #2 oil and $2.95 #1 heating oil and who knows about when we get one,just trying to figure the most bang for our buck.
Thanks again JD,appreciate your taking the time to answer our questions.
Warmest reguards,LOU

For propane to be as cost-effective as heating oil, it will have to be priced at $1.85 per gallon, or less - when heating oil is $2.90.

#2 fuel oil here is also around $2.90 per gallon.

Propane is $2.50 - $2.75 per gallon.

With those prices . . .
One dollar buys . . .

Heating oil - 44,800 BTUS of energy
Propane - 33,720 BTUs if $2.50, and 30,600 if $2.75 per gallon.

A slow-running (1800 RPM), water-cooled, Isuzu or Perkins diesel powered 12 KW genset, run 24 hours with intermittent high-low loads will use around 14.5 gallons of heating oil/diesel. Cost is $42 in fuel at $2.90 per gallon.

A fast-running (3600 RPM), propane-powered air-cooled Subaru or Honda powered 12 KW genset run on intermittent loads for 24 hours will use 33 1/2 gallons of propane. Cost is $82.50 if priced at $2.50 per gallon. $92 if $2.75 per gallon.

Lou . . . I forgot to mention in the last post, that besides propane having much less energy per gallon (as compared to heating oil/diesel), the propane engines also are not near as efficient.

It comes to this. If heating oil is $2.90 per gallon, then propane has to be $1.30 per gallon to make electricity at the same price.

You could power your house for 24 hours on diesel for $42. To do the same with propane, the price per gallon would have to be $1.30 per gallon.

If propane IS cheap, you can buy a propane converstion kit to fit just about any old generator with a water-cooled engine. The nice thing about most gensets is this - when used as stand-by units, many have never been used since new - regardless of age. My 1960 Fairbanks-Morse does not even have the paint burnt off the muffler/exhaust yet. It was a stand-by unit in a local school, and was NEVER used since bought new in 1960. Just started once every 6 months and tested.

My point is - you could find a heavy-duty older water-cooled gasoline genset - and easily convert to propane - or better yet - natrual gas if you have it available. In much of the country though, propane is nowhere near as cost-effective as other fuels.

Conversion kits at:

http://www.propane-generators.com/

Lou,like the man from Mn.said,our electric co.has a automatic disconnect policy until you put an approved disconnect switch in.In our sue happy world,you are setting yourself up for legal troubles if something should ever go wrong.Yes I do get checked by the elec.co.if a new crew comes in and sees my lights when no one else has power.And yes I have 8 200 amp.disconnect switches.

Thanks again JD,
Around our small town(2500 people) there are very few possibilities for a standby generator, but I keep looking.There may be a few closer to the twin cities,but haven"t looked yet.
I will check out propane costs,(local) as I said, we didn"t have any use for propane, elect h2o heater,oil&wood furnace,electric dryer, so no propane or gas use for all the time we live here,but maybe a small (250 gal) tank could be used just for the generator as a backup.I REALLY appreciate the information on the conversion kit,always helps to have different avenues in case prices of on fuel increase,while another drops.Thanks again JD,
Warmest reguards,LOU

For years, we didn't use any propane here. Had electric, oil, and wood kitchen stoves, and electric and wood hot water. But after many power outages and thinking about installing solar-electric, I put in some propane. Propane hot-water heater (bought two for $75 each), and a propane kitchen stove (paid $50). Then, I also installed three non-hard-vented propane heaters. Those heaters are amazing! I originally bought them for emergency heat-backup that requires no electricity. But since them, we use them for heating small areas of the house. We have a 28K BTU infra-red unit next to where we sit when watching TV. Also have a 7K BTU unit in the bathroom. Heaters are made by Procom and I find them to be amazing bargains. Now, when it's in the 30s F outside and not cold enough to run the big wood-furnace, we use the oil-furnace set at 55F, and use the propane heaters in areas where we hang out.

Main thing I found around here is this. Propane companies charge different prices depending on how many gallons that actually sell you, per delivery. So, if you bought your own big tank, and only had them come to fill it when near empty, you ought to be able to get the lowest rate. That's why we bought our own big submarine-shaped tank.

I checked around here in NY yesterday. Price was $2.50 per gallon for lowest rate (customers with big tanks and/or high useage). For others propane is $2.75 to $3 per gallon.

I have an old Onan 5000 watt generator.It runs a 1800 rpm and has a big muffler so noise is not a problem.I never ran it full time.Just enough to keep the freezer and refridgerator cold.It ran the washer and tv or the oil furnace.Most of our heat came from a wood burning kitchen stove or a stove in the living.Used it to run the post office mornings.Kept it in the back of my pickup so it could be moved around and used at several neighbors houses.power was out here for 10 days and longer during the ice storm.Power was out for 2 weeks at home when I was 10 years old.Our house used wood and kerosene plus there was a ton of coal in the cellar.I keep 5 gallons of kerosene for lamps and plenty of candles on hand the cost to be ready for long power outage is small,but a lot of people around here didnt own one candle when the ice storm hit.People were out of food in a few days.I still think a small generator used properly is best way for most people.A Dairy or Poultry farm does need a big tractor power generator.My friend ran a small generator for 24 hours and used 10 gallons of gas.I told him that was not the was to do it.When my onan generator runs out side the barn you cant hear it in the house.

This backfeed is a popular myth.In the first place linemen treat all lines as hot.There are no dead lines.There will be many water heaters on the line,freezers ,refridgerators, water pumps and lights are all switched on waiting for the power to come back.Ever noticed that it takes several trys before the power stays on after the power comes back.Pulling the main fuses or shutting off the main breakers will isolate your home from the power grid .Your oil furnace can be run on an extention cord if the furnace power comes from an outlet and plug.Your little 3600 rpm generators are not meant to be run full time.Most will burn up their crankcase oil and throw a rod.Neighbor did this with a new generator.My Honda sawmill engine has a low oil shut off.I still check the oil each time I run it.

I have plans for a generator shed about 8x10.Big sliding door to open when running.My Onan generator has a system that can blow engine heat out doors.It needs a 12 volt starting battery.I will have a 12 volt light over head so i can see to start it on a black nite.Exhaust will go up thru the metal roof with a tractor weather cap on the pipe.The Onan is fed gas from a marine fuel tank.It has an electric fuel pump and can draw gas fromm an auto or truck gas tank.This generator was in an RV So it does not have its own gas tank.while it is only 5000 watt it does the job when needed.Never tracked gas used, just was glad to have it when the power quit.10 days was the longest here.I still think every kitchen needs a wood fired cook stove.If you dont have the room, build on a small addition and put up a good inside chimney.I keep a hand pump on my well just in case.

(quoted from post at 06:47:04 11/01/10) This backfeed is a popular myth.In the first place linemen treat all lines as hot.There are no dead lines.There will be many water heaters on the line,freezers ,refridgerators, water pumps and lights are all switched on waiting for the power to come back.Ever noticed that it takes several trys before the power stays on after the power comes back.Pulling the main fuses or shutting off the main breakers will isolate your home from the power grid .Your oil furnace can be run on an extention cord if the furnace power comes from an outlet and plug.Your little 3600 rpm generators are not meant to be run full time.Most will burn up their crankcase oil and throw a rod.Neighbor did this with a new generator.My Honda sawmill engine has a low oil shut off.I still check the oil each time I run it.

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Looks like all them electricians, electrical engineers, building/electrical code inspectors and accident analyst teams are not as smart as you are.