Battery maintainers revisited

There was a forum discussion here not along ago about on-board battery maintainers for cars, trucks, and tractors.

For reasons that still elude me, several people got upset over the use of them, claiming stories about fire hazards, families being burnt up, etc.

Also several people on this forum stated these chargers have no fuse protection on the input, and according to one guy here, I'm just plain "stupid."

I just pulled apart two brand-new maintainers one made for permanent mounting on a car, truck, or tractor (if desired).

Both are three-stage chargers. One is VOT,rated at 2 amps max and the other Harbor Freight, rated at 1.5 amps max. Both cost less then $20 each. Both look pretty much the same inside. The VOT is vented, and the HF is sealed and weatherproof. I suspect the HF was "detuned" a bit due to the lack of weatherproofing and no ventilation.

Both have 18 gauge AC lead cords and a 1 amp fuse at the AC input where the cord joins the circuit board. Both also have a 5 amp fusible link on the circuit board at the DC output.
Can't see how you could build one much safer.

Now if lightning strikes, and the lead cord is laying on gasoline-soaked cardboard - OK, maybe a fire risk. But if that happened, who's fault is that? How many other lead cords are plugged in, all the time, in a house or shop?

I ran current draw tests for a full week. When in standy-by "float" mode at 13.5 volts DC, both draw near the same AC current. 1 watt for the HF, and 1.8 watts for the VOT. In 7 days, each maintainer used a max .49 of a KWH of electricity. If I was buying electricity here in NY, that would cost 9 cents per week, or 36 cents per month.

When the VOT was in high-charge mode, it made 2.2 amps in DC, while drawing 1/4 amp at 120 volts AC.

Considering all truck, car and tractor batteries self-discharge by themselves, at a rate of 3-10% per month, these maintainers can make batteries last a lot longer. Sitting around in discharge is a big killer of batteries. More so in newer cars and trucks that have a steady current draw, all the time.

I started using them because I've got over a dozen cars, trucks, and tractors sitting around that don't get used much.

I'm not promoting anything here. These things have saved me a lot of dead-battery headaches for stuff that rarely gets used. Just stating facts as I've observed them. In the past, there were many times I'd need to use a backhoe in the middle of the winter, only to find the battery dead - and sometimes frozen. All batteries discharge on their own.

<a href="http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m162/jdemaris/?action=view&amp;current=100_7119c.jpg" target="_blank"> </a>

I thank you for that discussion. I too, was a little worried about them, especially the HF one. I think some had a problem when placed on a bad battery. That could cause it to run at max power continuously. Not many of any thing can stand that.
Of course there are some here that never pass up the chance to run down HF products when many other name brands come from the same place.

Thanks for the review. I need one for the Mighty Hornet.

What is VOT?

A good, detailed analysis. Thanks!

Based on the prior discussion, I ordered one from HF a few days ago (on sale, BTW). Going to put it on my hay moving tractor. These days, it gets around 10-20 min of use every 4-5 days dropping round bales for the cattle. Thought that with that occasional use, the bats will never get enough charge to recover from the starting.

Been using the block heater also, and it is working really well. Kicks over as well as in the summer. I plug it in about 1.5 hours before use. No starting fluid necessary.

This site is great, so much useful/factual info.

John

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=749665&amp;ecid=EX50D

VOT is just one of many brand-names stuck on these maintainers built in China. SportsmansGuide had a sale a few weeks ago on the ones branded VOT for $13 each, so I bought a couple just to try.

Product: WX2-190293

at Sportsmansguide.com

JD - could I hook one to my 24v 4020? If so, how would be the proper way?

You'd have to have two of them and hook one directly to each battery. The Harbor Freight units would be better for that since they are weather-sealed and made for on-board mounting.

Your Deere isn't really a true 24 volt system, it's mix of three small systems stuck together. 12 volt neg ground, 12 volt pos ground, and 24 volt cranking.

As an engineer who had a barn burn down before, I'm as safety conscience as the next guy regarding "electrical stuff" in a shop or barn etc.

I dont consider those low energy low current maintainers as overly hazardous and I sure as heck do NOT consier you stupid and enjoy your opinions.

In my opinion the mounting and location and safety and care of the cords and extensions is as or more important then the units themselves. NEVER have the cords running around on the ground where hay or straw etc is abundant and keep away from over tops of gas tanks etc and when you place the charger leads or cords etc consider where they could fall and what hazards it may create.

A GREAT SAFETY DEVICE which the NEC started requiring a while back are the ARC FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTERS. They have circuit breakers of course, but if they make an auxiliary plug in (as they do GFCI's) device now that would be great for shop or barn use on units such as those maintainers.......... If one had a dusty straw and hay area (but ARENT MOST LOL) where a tractor and with maintainer are stored, my advice would be to look into use of an AFCI breaker or add on which really improves safety.

Merry Christmas

John T

I too, would like to commend you on your well thought out reasons and positions on different subjects.

Yes, I agree 100% about the cord. Any power cord can be a fire hazard if on flamable materials. If that happens, you can't blame the appliance at the working end of it.

I'm impressed with these small chargers. Since I was once a radio-geek 50 years ago, and built many of my own radios, transmitters, etc. - I am baffled when I see a circuit board this complex that sells for only $13, and had to be shipped from a place as far away as China.

If you had to build yourself, from scratch, can you imagine what just those individual components would cost a person? It's almost scary how cheap this stuff is, and. . . how many good components get thrown out since hardly anything gets fixed anymore.

Shucks, might Just get a couple myself,, Would I need 2 for the 4020 diesel ??

I personaly enjoy the one I have. I am very uptight with anyone who sits any charger any place other than on the ground as far away as possible from the machine.

I walked by my window one day and saw smoke, it was from a brand new charger set under the gas tank on a WD Allis. No harm done, I was just lucky.

I also noted a different charger one time at the job site was smoking. It was sitting on a tractor tire. If I remember correctly neither one was subjected to rain or snow at the time.

If I understanc correctly also, we can't count on new products being any better in quality in the future either.

You kind of impress me with your common sence approtch to things that are usualy over my head. Thanks for your imput.

Thanks for the info.

Do you think that those have the desulfating ability that more expensive ones advertise?

The worst time I have with batteries are the smaller ones for lawn mowers, portable welders, etc.
I've wondered if it's the sulfating that kills them. Of course, it could be mainly the vibration that does them in.

Over the years, I've bought Die Hards, Interstates, and others.
But I've never have one of these small batteries last more than a year.

No, they do not, but the switching regulators and unfiltered output probably provide some desulfating effect.

Dean

The little maintainers have their place, not only to prevent a dead battery when you need to use a rarely used machine, but also to prevent the battery killing sulphation that results from a battery setting for a long time when partially discharged.

I use a pair of charger/ maintainer / desulphator units called the battery MINDer which is sold by Northern Tool.

At $40, their more expensive than the little maintainers, but the desulphator feature seems to have enough value in extending battery life, that the extra cost is justified.

As to battery type, I disagree with JD on his assessment of the value of the spiral cell AGM batteries built by Optima and Exide Orbital.

JD says he had no luck with AGM batteries in a home power storage situation and seems to have a bit of a grudge against them.
I will not argue about the storage deal, as I have no experience there, but my 20 years of experience with them as an engine starting battery, makes me conclude there the best thing since sliced bread in a starting lighting ignition situation with a good well regulated charging system.

I am nearing 2 dozen of the Optima and Exide Orbital AGM batteries in my fleet of farm equippment for our 2000 acre farm.
As the old flooded cell batteries die, I replace them with the spiral cell AGM units.

Most of my farm equippment is seasonal use where the machine sits unused for as much as 10 months per year.
The spiral cell AGM batteries cost $140 for the Exide Orbital and $160 for the Optima.
Pretty expensive compared to a cheap flooded cell battery, but they last many time longer.
I can't believe it when I read that folks are satisfied with as little as 3-5 years life from a battery, the spiral cell AGM's have very long life if treated correctly. The only one that has failed for me was a much abused Optima that died at 16 years. The majority(60%) of my spiral cell AGM batteries are Exide Orbitals that are 10+ years old and work like new, many of them in large 450-900 CI diesel machines that work a battery hard.

You never have to deal with corroded battery cables and battery boxes with the sealed AGM batteries, plus they self discharge at a much slower rate than the flooded cell batteries.

I rotate the BatteryMINDer, charger/maintainer/ desulphator units to each stored machine about every 2 months, with usually 24-48 hrs on each machine before moving to the next.

You can really see the difference in self discharg rate between the flooded cell VS the AGM batteries.
Attaching the charger/ maintainer/ desulphator to a flooded cell battery after two months lay over usually takes about 3-4 hours of trickle charging before the charger switches from charge to desulphate. Attach the charger / desulphator to one of the spiral cell AGM equipped machines will usually switch from charge to desulphate within 1 hour.
The spiral cell AGM design also is very rugged in machines that have a lot of vibration.
BatteryMINDer

The maintainers prevent sulphation, but don't have the power to "desulphate" once it's happened.

"Equalization" is the process used to desulphate batteries that have sat too long in a low state of charge. It basically overcharges the battery and "cooks" the sulphation off the plates. Takes a big charger if you've got a big battery, and also needs to have the overvolting "equalization" mode.

I'll add that if you ever do that to an AGM battery like an Optima, it will ruin the battery fast. It's the main reason why AGM batteries have failed so miserably in large battery banks. Most big battery-bank chargers have equalization modes. When used on lead-acid batteries, it makes them last longer. When used on AGMs like Optimas, it kills them. Same can happen in a car or truck or tractor if something goes wrong with the charging system. If voltage gets too high, a conventional lead acid battery will need gas and a water refill, but otherwise do fine. An AGM battery will get ruined.

Jon Hagen, I agree with you 100% Exide Orbital and Optima are all I will use, they have cured all my battery problems. I started using Optima batteries about 15 years ago. It's nothing to get a dozen years of service from them I have a home made set of jumper cables made from welder cable and if you asked me where they are right now, I don't know, I would have to go look for them, I can't remember the last time I used them!! Those batteries stay clean, never any corrosion on the connections or in the box, they recharge fast and they will set for ever and not discharge. Use them on trailers for the for the safety brakes, there always up. I have an Exide Orbital in my plow truck since 02 running a western elec lift plow which are elec hogs, put the lights out when you lift or turn the plow and still works good. There are a lot of good batteries out there and a lot cheaper than these but this works for me.

Jde. I was wondering how long it would be, before you took time in proving what you are telling posters. I,for one am really pleased you did. Takes away the so called experts that give opinions without the benefit of proof.When You first answered my inquiry into rebuilding our O.C.46, I was truly thankfull for the correct advice you gave us. If I was to live another 75 yrears, I sincerely doubt that I could ever gather technical information/data,and ON HANDS EXPERIENCES that you posess. I can say that on this YT programs ,your an asset to these forums. I do know there are other knowledgeable folks here and from time to time I use their information and advice as well. Any Way Jde. My profound thanks for all your help.What you done this time, should prove"Knowledge isn't expensive,,It's priceless" Warmest reguards. LOU & VICTOR.

I've got no grudge against AGM batteries or Optimas when used in cars, trucks, tractors, etc. In fact, I've never been mad a battery, ever. When it comes to battery banks, the argument is kind of moot since Optima pretty much gave up in that market. I just don't appreciate unsubstantiated hype that pops up often all over the Net forums.

AGMs have several advantages over flooded-lead-acid batteries. Longevity isn't one of them WHEN you compare the two battery types fairly.

AGMs don't self-discharge near as fast as flooded-lead-acid batteries since they rarely use antinmony on the plates. AGMs also are spill proof and can even be mounted upside down. And, many dealers like them because they can be air-shipped.

The main point that some people might want to consider, is - what they are likely to get for the extra cost. Jumping up and down and making wild claims about how AGMs have double the life of lead-acid batterie is rediculous. Saying dollar for dollar they are cheaper in the end - is also not generally true. And claiming batteries like Optimas have much better warrantees ? Utter nonsense and very easy to verify.

Many lead-acid batterie last 5-7 years and some make it 10 years. Same can be said for AGMs.
AGMs tend to get less self-discharged when sitting around not being used. But, they will also fail much sooner than a FLA if charged at too high a voltage.

If a person doesn't have a special application that needs the AGM, where is the gain when the price is often twice of a similar power lead-acid battery?

So, some may not agree with my thinking, but I see it like this. I have many cars, trucks, and tractors. As long as I have them, I'm always going to be buying batteries. It could be summed up to a certain cost, per month, forever. Any calculation I've read, done by people with more resources then me, has shown lead-acid batteries to give the most for the dollar, over time - by a wide margin.

Granted, many lead-acid batteries have doubled in price in the past three years - so things change.

Again if a person loves his Optima, it's fine with me. Just be factual about it's advantages over other batteries.

I agree partially.
Neither Exide Orbital or Johnson controls / Orbital guarntee their AGM batteries much if any longer than a flooded cell battery, I suspect mainly because so many are ruined by owners who do not have a clue how to properly maintain them.

One or both companies used to claim that their spiral cell AGM's may outlast a conventional battery by two or more times, a claim that in my experience is true,IF THRY ARE NOT ABUSED !!

Atleast one spiral cell AGM builder used to lightly glue the tiny cell vent caps on, Normally they will never see enough gassing to pop the glue on those caps. The selling dealer is supposed to check for popped vents on any spiral cell battery returned for warranty. If the caps seal is blown, the battery has been seriously overcharged to the point of boiling away the electrolyte and damage is not the fault of the battery.
I have had great luck with them on my equippment with solid state regulated alternators which do a decent job of charging without under / overcharging them.

The purity of the lead used and the many short cell connectors allows them to give 15 seconds of cranking power atleast 200 amps in excess of their CCA numbers, and self discharge is very slow.

I would never install one in an old tractor with a non regulated "cut out" equipped generator or a rider lawn mower with their crude flywheel generator system. Even a mechanical regulator system on a generator / alternator is a bit suspect.
The worst thing is the owner that puts an 80 amp unregulated charger on them and walks away for an hour or two, sure death to an AGM battery.

What ticks me the most is the latest trend of putting an Optima "yellow top", deep cycle battery in a starting application.

This is usually guys who like to play with high power sound systems, winches, lights, hydraulic lift kits, drawing sometimes hundreds of amps for an hour or so, then using it to start the engine and let the 140 amp alternator beat that deep cycle battery to death. That size deep cycle battery should never be hit with engine starting loads, them quickly recharged with a 100+ amp alternator. No good for ANY type deep cycle battery.
Then I hear these same folks howl about how that worthless Optima yellow top only lasted 6 months in their Jeep with an electric winch, 1000 watt sound system and 34 running lights mounted on top.
I maintain that in my experience, a correctly maintained spiral cell AGM battery is an install it and forget it battery that will often wear out the vehchle. Take care of them and they will do the job for 10-20 years, with no more maintenence than an anual check of the tightness of the lead clamps.

My last small battery on the saw mill lasted 4 years.The battery on the mill is 3 years old but is showing uneven hydrometer readings.

Friend had a fuse blow in his jeep wagon.He bought a pak of chinese fuses.Put in a new 9 amp fuse ,smoke came out from under.I took the fuse into the shop.Ran my DC supply up to 20 amps, fuse wouldnt blow.Tried other fuses in the pak, wires smoked but fuse never blew.The jeep had a dead short.I have a charger in the shop with a shorted diode and a burned transformer.

Sorry, you can't get them at Shucks. Shucks Auto Supply is now O'Reilly's.