What is full synthetic motor oil? More hype

Today, I reluctantly had to go out to find some 5W-30 synthetic motor oil. Not for any engine, (which I consider to be a waste of money). I need it for the five-speed Getrag 360 manual trans in my Dodge-diesel truck.

In my opinion (supported by many verifyable facts and tests) is there is little to no cost-effective or longevity advantage to using Sythetic motor oil under normal useage in engines (not extreme temps or heavy duty). I've read through countless longevity tests with pertro-verus-sythetic in rental fleets, coporate fleets, and taxi cabs. No gains in longevity were found, i.e. both oils performed the same.

Then comes marketing and hype - and the stories fly. Remember the old Mobil 1 commercials with oil in a frying pan?

Now to my point. Sythetic oil does handle extremes in temperatures better then petro-based oil. My transmission has no cooling system and I do a fair amount of towing. The Gertrag 360 five-speed calls for a 5W-30 motor-oil only in the trans - thus my desire for synthetic. Getrag has a bad rap as it is and needs all the help it can get.

OK. I walk into NAPA and ask for synthetic 5W-30. They give me Castrol Syntec 5W-30 and on the label, it states clearly "Full Synthetic Oil." Clear enough, right? NOPE.

Before I dumped the oil in my trans, I did some research. I found out that Castrol Syntec Full Synthetic is made from petro-oil and is NOT synthetic at all. Note, I am NOT talking about a blend. This is sold as FULL SYNTHETIC.

So, I did some more reading. I found out many motor oils in the USA ONLY are allowed to be sold as "full synthetic" when they are actually made from petro-oil.

Hey - I though we USA-Americans consider ourselves somewhat wary and educated. How come, only in the USA, is this allowed? That's rhetorical; I don't expect an answer.

Ends up only API Type IV synthetic oil is actually NOT made from crude-oil. Type III is.
Mobil 1 and Amsoil both sell genuine synthetic Type IV oil. As to the rest? Read and research very closely before you buy. Many are not and are actuall Type III made from petroleum.

Some specs:

Group IV API base stock for sythetic oils -synthetic esters, or PAO - polyalphaolefin. Used in Mobil 1, Amsoils, etc. The first synthetic motor oil sold in the USA with an API rating was sold by Amsoil.

Group III base stocks are considered synthetic motor oil only in the United States and elsewhere they are not allowed to be marketed as "synthetic". API (category III) base oils are marketed to the general public only in the USA as fully synthetic motor oil. Within the US, there are no official specifications, or standards as to which oils can be, or cannot be, marketed as "synthetic".

In July 1996 Consumer Reports published the results of a two year motor oil test involving a fleet of 75 New York taxi cabs and found no noticeable advantage of synthetic oil over regular mineral oil. This is one of many similar tests done since the early 70s.

I might add , jd , the proper wording is "synthetic lubricant" for the non crude based and "synthetic oil" for the crude based. This is one way they get around it in marketing. The aerospace industry has had synthetic "lubricants" for a long time. Too expensive to consider for use in autos. Anything called synthetic oil is probably just that...oil! Granted , it will have a superior additive package and superior refining techniques which will make it a superior "oil" but it is still oil.

Thanks for the warning...I'm sure I'm not the only one that appreciates your time to research and report this.

RICK

ps: Gotta check sometime to see what my Duramax/Alison calls for.

What year Dodge is it? They used the same NV trans in the Chevys and Dodges in the mid 90s
My New Venture trans in my Dodge requires synthetic.


I have always run either Shell Rotella T or Formula shell in my tractors and vehicles. Had great luck with it to.

One other question: Where do you find all this info? About oils and such. Thanks

Royal Purple and Lubrication Engineers may also be a true synthetic oil.

"IN USA ONLY"
Found out today that the USA is the only country that does not alow "KINDER SURPRICE" eggs into the country.Lady in Winnipeg got off on a warning and had her childs egg confascated and received a 7 page letter asking for her permision to destroy the $2 egg or pay storage cost of $250 in case they needed it in a law suit against her.Duuuuuh or what?

I haven"t had any experience with the Royal Purple but I know with the LE stuff you don"t need their synthetic for it to be good....I"ve seen their transmissiona d compressor oils make as much as a 15 degree temp difference when put in place of other brands.

Scamsoil DOES NOT have an API rating, AT ALL, NEVER has. I would like to know where you copied that from! (No disrespect intended of course!)

I believe this to be correct. Amsoil XL 10,000 mile oil is group 3. Amsoil 25,000 mile oil is group 4 PAO.
Mobil 1 I don't know but think is or was group 4.
they are evasive to question about are you group 3 or 4 for Mobil 1 Here is their reply on mobiloil website..
Answer:
As we're sure you can understand, ExxonMobil does not discuss formulations publicly,as this information is proprietary. We would rather focus on the advanced technology and proven performance that our engine oils and other products offer to our customers. Mobil 1 is the world’s leading synthetic motor oil and the one chosen by more original equipment manufacturers around the world as factory fill. We want those facts to speak for us so our customers feel confident they are getting a high quality, high performance product that provides ultimate protection to their vehicles.

Amsoil has paid for plenty of API certifications in the past. I have no idea if they do it anymore (and don't care). Amsoil was one of the first companies in the USA to market a synthetic motor oil in the USA at a consumer lever. That was the mid-to-late 1960s and that first oil certainly was API certifed. Anybody can get an API rating. All they have to do is pass the lab-tests and pay a bunch of fees. I don't recall at the moment what company actually made it for Amsoil, but I guess it's not relevant anyway.

Amsoil does have some oils that have the API (license). Remember API rating means the oil meets their very minimum standard.

Ok, Ill have to take your word for it, I can find NO history on Amsoils API rating what so ever. I however find it funny that they try to mislead the public on their FAQS about the Vioer and Corvette coming with synthetic, like its their synthetic. Im not knocking them by any means, but to me it doesnt make much sence! Call me crazy, I wouldnt take a pill unless my doctor says it OK, nor would I put oil in my truck that the API didnt say was ok either.

Which ones?

Usually whenever a synthetic vs. dino oil debate comes up I specifically state to use a TRUE FULL synthetic such as Mobil 1 or Amsoil. I sell Amsoil so am partial to it. They do sell many different oils with different chemistrys. Their best oils are simply the best made. Maybe not by much nor in every single test and definately not in upfront price but where their best oil shines is the fact that it will last for at least 17.5/35k miles extreme/normal driving and 12.5/25k extreme/normal for diesel oil. In the end it is actually cheaper, wastes less oil, uses less filters and saves labor. So almost every time it is cheaper to use it and you do get better protection. Kinda like insurance, worthless until you need it. Now, Mobil 1 has a good synthetic oil, no arguing that but they don't sell a filter that lasts for the full 25k miles. Amsoil does. And just because an oil doesn't have an API rating doesn't mean it doesn't meet or exceed the specs. As someone else mentioned it costs money to get that approval. Amsoil passes the savings on to the users. Reminds me of an old joke:
What do you call the doctor who graduated last in his class?
A doctor!
Any questions on Amsoil ask me.

golly... the 96 test was about adding moly to the taxi cab fleet vrs off the shelf oils if i remember correctly. and the moly additives did not change the wear as the normal oil already had some moly, phospherous and other high wear additives... unless your test was not the "consumers report" taxi cab tests on the chevy 350 engines. Seems like the checker cabs ran the chevy 350 engine at that time.

the group III oil comes from hydro treating the base oil stock to remove all the parrafins, all the waxes, all the lighter aromatics and leaves you with an ultra pure, single molecule structure, that performs almost identical to the group IV molecule that is made from natural gas.. .yes group IV oils comes from natural gas... and since the group III ultra pure molecule is not found in regular oil and is only obtained via heating up the oil in a hydrogen atmosphere, its considered a man made molecule and therefore its synthetic. (the companies went to arbitration on the law suit)

tests show the performance is almost the same as group IV and its much cheaper.

as to Europe, chevron(american) invented the process and licensed it to anyone,, and at that time only american refiners decided to buy the license, then built out the additional equipment to produce the special group III oil. This was because the american market had more cars that required a better oil and americans had the money to buy the better cars, and pay for the better oil. So when europe needed the better oils they simply jumped to the group iv bases as their refineries are not equipped to produce the group III oils, so the simply bought the raw group iv oils. Europe had a smaller middle class so most folks drove very simple cars and only the very rich drove the high end cars that called for the full synthetic oils. Therefore historically they have only bad, poor oils or really really great super high end oils.. They have no middle or high range oils nor can their refineries produce these oils.

So.. you can study the history or rewrite facts.. The european acea ratings are in most cases very close or identical to the api tests procedures except they have no middle ratings.. when I say middle, I mean oils that will perform perfectly in a modern engine vrs a group iv oil that performs slightly better. You can go the api or acea sites and look at the various wear tests and see how the different oils perform and compare them. even japan has the jasso oil ratings which parallel the other two testing agencies. See how each oil performs, how group II conventional oils perform, the group III oils and then groupIV oils work. It will amaze you. Group III hd oils in america are delivering up to a million miles between overhauls on heavy duty over the road diesels today. They used to be the best oil money could buy till tier 4 emissions came to the diesel industry and now these oils have lowered the anti wear additives to keep from foul up the catalytic converters, So now the oils group III and group IV both have lowered their ability to protect your heavy duty engines in favor of emissions. If you research hd oils, you find that both group III and group IV oils both perform very well and are almost identical in performance.


So... if you discount group III oils, your making a big mistake by listening to the hype!!!!!

Do the research your self. The web sites are there and open.

go back to 1959 when we were all group II oils and follow the progression of american oils. See where the multi weight oils could only come on line with either group III or group IV bases added. As the group III oils became perfected, the american market had a whole range of great "middle" oils that the europeans did not have.

the cold start cam failures in the 70s from gm engines, the cam follower wears from mac engines. the top ring coking problem was identified and new additives added to get around this. Each of the api test are actually based on a identified problem and the test was based on the actual engine that failed or a modification test based on that failure. Look at each test procedure and which engine its based on. Its a history book of american oil development. And yes group III oils are very very very good oils if you look at the api test results and not on marketing bullcrapola

Sooo did you put an e-mail or phone call to Castrol with your findings?
Govt.'s like to go in for self regulation because it makes life easier so you can see who sets the standards.

What ever happened to Valvoline? I thought they were vegetable oils.

while I on a rampage, nether oil base by itself is worth a crap till you put in an additive package. Both will pass or fail the tests based on the package, so bottom line is the base is not a factor any more in most cases. If you go to outer space or something really weird, then the base oil will be more important, but in the tractor, car, and truck world, the additive package can now make a quasi group II oil perform at a very high level. Most companies have moved to mix of group II/group III oil bases to get the job done and save money on the cost of product. Group IV bases are usually reserved for the idiots with more money than sense. It rumoured that even mobil one is now a mixed base oil as the additive package make it pass all the wear tests.

You need to concentrate on the wear tests, each type and see which oils pass, and not worry about the base oil or what day of the week it is.

thanks for taking the time to post this.

You did not state the year model so I went on my own search and as usual got side tracked... spent the last haft hour reading this... Nuttin to do with your trans but interesting...

http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/faq/all_print.php?prog=1&lang=en

It was sort of big news, back around 1970 when sythetic oil first started getting marketed to the public. Many tests, magazine write-ups (e.g. Popular Mechanics). and the two were tested and certified by the API. Amsoil was first, and Mobil 1 came a little after. Amsoil was started by a WWII jet-fighter commander (Lieutenant Colonel Albert Amatuzio), who I assume learned about Synthetic oil from its use in those jets.

On the suject of API ratings, I wish two-stroke-oil got tested are rated. I've yet to come across any that is.

Dexron 6 for the allison trans.

Fleet use which tends to be continuous duty is some of the least demanding service.
Fleet engines that rarely cool down and are only stopped to refuel or at the end of the work day. They don't suffer the wear of cold starts without lubrication. or the extra blowby and exposure to partly burned fuel.

Just put some Hytrans and a can of Slick 50 in it and you'll be good to go. wink

This is one of those issues where opinions and so called facts and studies may be all over the map...

Ive used Mobil 1 (depends on the vehicle and its use) and had good results but am aware its hard to prove if it helped but likewise its hard to prove the contrary.

Sooooooo I will continue its use in some circumstances and glad others do or do not subject to their free choices.

Personally I think Mobil 1 is good oil but thats hard to prove or disprove lol

John T

I have always thought that the Polyolefin oil, or derived from Natural gas or whatever is what true synthetic oil is. Such as Amsoil and Mobil 1.
The castrol synthetic is just regular motor oil and does nothing for you.

BTW: I am not a chemist or a petroleum engineer. But I do have common sense and......With my own experiences have noticed the following:

1. Synthetic oil in motor and trans of old F-150 300CI 6 cylinder. easy starts in 0F weather and the manual trans shifted easier with synthetic in it.

2. Old boss swears by and sells Amsoil, he drove like a 8ick with his 1987 ranger truck. 220,000 miles on it when he got laid off in 2001, so I dont know how much more longer it went.

3. The pour point of synthetic is much lower, like -50f. I have seen with my own eyes dexron 2 transfluid in a gel state at -40f. (I am merely stating a fact) Not which synthetic is better.

4. I dont know how much hotter synthetic will get, I dont want to start a fire with a hot plate.

I'm not rewriting facts. Words/terms have accepted meanings in context. In the context of engine and equipment mechanics - the terms "conventional oil" and "synthetic oil" commonly connote "oil made from petroleum" and "oil NOT made from petroleum." Arguments outside that scope are just semanitcs.

And yes, American English is a "living language" which means it constantly changes. But, we are not talking in common terms. We are discussing terms that have technical implications in the context of mechanics.

So, yes . . some type III oils have similar characteristics to type IV in certain test scores. So what? The same can be said for several types of conventional petroleum oils. Many have low/high temp viscosities, pour points, flash points, and wear-scar test scores that match synthetics. What the heck does that prove? Titles for two different things don't have merit if those things behave in similar fashion?

My complaint is . . . if somebody wants to buy synthetic oil - they should be able to assume that . . . when the label reads "full synthetic oil" . . . that oil is actually made from a synthetic, non-petro base.

Are you also looking to change the denotation of the word "synthetic?" In science, it usually carries the meaning of something made "artificially." Seems petro-oil, made from petro-oil does not come close to that meaning.

I stated in my post that I have the Getrag 360, five-speed. There IS only one 360 and it calls for 5W-30 oil only. Mine is a 1992 Dodge W250 with a Cummins diesel. Getrags were used before the NV4500s (which also take an esoteric oil).

I wanted to make sure I got genuine synthetic with a higher flash-point then any petro oil I know of, in the 5W-30 viscosity grade.

I find the facts to be consistent. Just the hear-say and ads-claims that aren't.

I've been reading about the synthetic oils since the 50s. Also when they hit the public-consumer market around 1970 and cost 4-5 times as much per quart.

There is an awful lot of marketing hype that is pretty much bogus. That being said, there are some real advantages to true synthetic oils. Many people though, under normal useage, cannot make good use of those advantages.

In my case, with a HD truck and trans that only holds 4 quarts and has no cooling system - an oil with a high flash point can be good to have. Thus the reason why I went looking for it.

I can also see where it's good to have as a two-stroke-cycle oil used in air-cooled chain-saws.

As I recall, when the military used in in air-craft in WWII, sythetic was mostly used in jets, not piston-engines in planes. But, I could be wrong about that.

I will jusst add trucking co i worked for changed to castrol oil an lenghtened change to 35000 miles with grease job every 7500 miles an-antifrese check.They were very pleased with it. Also did lab check every oil change.

The misconception that "synthetic oil" is not made from plain old crude oil is very common. The major oil companies that first developed a process that revolutionized how oil is refined are Exxon/Mobil and Chevron, they hold the pateneds to the catalyst that efficently change wax molecules to long chains of very stable hydrocarbon molecules. Exxon/Mobil"s Mobil 1 is produced exclusively by them. All the rest of the synthetic oils on the market are blends from other producers and packagers. I work for the largest Type III base oil refinery in the Northern Hemisphere, it is located in Pt. Arthur, Tx. You can not buy a case of oil at Wal-Mart or anywhere else that doesn"t have at least some oil produced here in Pt. Arthur, unless you buy Mobil 1. All the other "synthetic oil" brands buy some if not most of there oil from us and blend/package it as their own.
We use Exxon/Mobil"s catalyst in our reactors and it is very expensive, $10 million. They warrenty it"s performance and have engineers on-site monitoring our start-ups to make sure we don"t damage it. The term "synthetic oil" is misleading, I fully concede that point, but blame a Marketing/Advertising guy for that...It all starts out as crude oil.

Ice storm, Northern New York. Power down for two weeks. Temp: hovering around zero.

Running hardware-store Homelite gen (10 y/o} to power home, shop and father-in-laws trailer.

Running 24 hours a day, changing oil every 3 days.

Fuel per 24hr: app 14 gallons.

Last oil change installed synthetic oil. After change fuel used: app. 9 gallons per 24hr.

Brad

Good to know! I have had the fluid in several manual transmissions burst into flame!!! Well actually never. But it never hurts to be safe!

Brad

When my wife thinks of organic food she thinks of food produced with out syhthetic pesticides or fertilizers (most synthesized from petroleum products). When I here organic I think it contains a carbon molecule. I have no desire to discuss this with her. Much (most) of the synthetic materials we use, fibers, plastics ect. are from petroleum. The idea that we can't make a synthetic product out of petroleum is foriegn to me. Perhaps " American english is a living language", however for those of us chemists, geologists and petroleum engineers not so much. If the meaning of our words change we could hurt more people and spill more oil then we do now. That molecule that was based in crude oil, after treatment, that goes into Mobel 1 (or whatever)does not appear in nature. It was man made. Its bonds to other molecules were made my man. The oil companies are not misrepresting anything. It is synthetic oil. As for the Cat IV product based off natural gas, It recieves imputs from the crude oil distallation column at the refinery. If I am wrong I am sure the oil guys in Texas will set me straight.

I heard from an oil analysis lab that there are only 3 companies in N. America that produce the additives that are added to oil. The oil from the oil sands is often referred to as synthetic crude. Dave

In the USA, food sold as "organic" has no one specific definition. Food labeling has always been a sort-of free-for-all.

A few years ago, L.L. Bean got sued for selling "counterfeit" maple syrup that was actually made from beet sugar. I was curious how it would be settled legally, but I think L.L. Bean settled out of court.

In the USA, most public attention to "synthetic oil", going back to WWII, was about oil made from coal. That's what Hitler did, and that's what our US miltary has done.

Now? There are two official definitions that I know of.

#1 is from the IEA with members from all over the world, including Canada and the USA. Their defintion is: "Synthetic fuel/oil as any liquid fuel obtained from coal or natural gas"

#2 is from the EIA which is a USA agency only. No foreign members. Its def: Synthetic fuel/oil is a product produced from coal, natural gas, or biomass feedstocks through chemical conversion into synthetic crude and/or synthetic liquid products.

That was my point, to a food consumer "organic" is a free for all. To a chemist it has a very definate meaning. Apparently "synthetic" is in a similar boat. To me it means something that was but together by man, it dosen't exist in nature. Such are the molecules in Mobil 1 and others,it is synthetic. Anyway it is to a scientist, maby not the consumers. To the best of my understanding EIA is a energy forcasting agency with no authority to define or regulate anything. I do remember the sugar beet syrup, but that was a case of fraud. Presenting something to be fact when you know it is not. A similar thing happened to McDonalds when they said their french fries were cooked in pure vegtable oil, when it contained beef fat. A certian group that thinks cows are secrate went nuts. I never hear how either turned out. I always wonder how damages are quantified in such events.

I can't disagree with anything you stated.

With the sugar-beet deal, angry customers weren't the problem at first. It was a bunch of angry Canadian and Vermont maple syrup producers being undercut by some producer making bogus syrup. As I understand it, LL Bean didn't know they were buying bogus syrup. They just bought at the best price.

As to the term "synthetic oil", it has no controlled meaning in the USA, when it comes to consumer marketing. When it comes to science (or law) words must be defined in specific disciplines. That is, unless it's a word that is considered to have a meaning that is universally accepted.

In my personal situation, I've read studies about "synthetic oil" dating back to WWII, and our military adopting it. I also read about the guy that started selling the same military-grade synthetic oil to general consumers. That was the start of Amsoil. At that time, the one common theme with "synthetic oils" was the very high flash point as compared to petro-oil. So, when I now look for "Synthetic Oil". it is that high flash point I'm looking for. Until a few days ago, I had no idea the meaning of this phrase/term had gotten so equivocal.