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BUYING A NEW RIFLE

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Detmurds

Member
I am going to go and purchase a brand spanking new rifle tomorrow. I am thinking 308, but what do you all think?

I'm looking at deer hunting,...maybe elk? Also, self protection of course!
 
If I was buying tomorrow I'd get another of what I got 25 years ago, 700 Remington ADL in .270 with a second choice being the same rifle in 30/06. I prefer the ballistics and trajectory of the .270 and 30/06 over anything else out there.
 
30/06 would be a better choice for an "All around" rifle.... .308 will kill Elk, But is a bit "light" imho.

Either way enjoy yer new rifle!
 
Detmurds.WIsh you success. Hard to get just one . Like a kid in a candy store WHICH ONE?????LOL.My favorite is a BDL 700 -300 Win.Mag Stainless steel barrel.Here is a pic of it and a German Mauser .Re chambered for 30.-06. Action on the Mauser is significantly SMOOTHER then the 300.Would buy the same again if needed. I'm sure you will enjoy your new rifle, what ever you choose. Regards LOU.
a33500.jpg

a33501.jpg

a33502.jpg

a33503.jpg
 
I have been told several times that the 30/6 is better than the 308. I guess that is the Military in me thinking (21 years, retired active duty Chief Petty Officer).

Bad news for me is I am left handed and my left eye as well.

I hope to find something pretty that kills.

Thanks for the pics Lou from WI
 
Expensive to shoot.A tad overkill for whitetail deer.But man,7mm Magnum is an awesome caliber.
 
You can't go wrong with the .308. With a properly placed shot the animal won't know the difference between the .308 and the '06 ane you will have a nice light weight short action rifle.
 
The .308 Winchester is a good cartridge, but .30-06 is more versatile. I would not care to hunt elk with the lighter cartridge. .30-06 is particularly versatile for the handloader: it performs well with just about any weight bullet from 125 to 250 grains.

Are you considering a bolt gun, autoloader or ??? Your choice of rifle may dictate your cartridge choice. For a bolt gun, two very good rifles are the new Winchester Model 70 (made by FN) and the Kimber. The Kimber comes in four different action sizes, while the M70 uses the same action for all cartridges.
 
Being a southpaw, you might want to consider a single-shot rifle. Thompson-Center Encore and Ruger No. 1 are a couple of choices. With the Encore you can switch barrels, so you don't have to pick just one cartridge.
 
6 years ago, after using my rusty but trusty 30-30 Marlin for 30+ years I wanted a newer rifle. Mainly because my eyes have changed and I wanted something I could put a scope on.
I went back and forth on the caliber but finally settled on .270 cal. Plenty of stopping power for deer be they close or a few hundred yards away. I think if I planned to hunt elk I would go with 30-06.
I bought a new Tikka T3. It's a fine piece of machinery. Just wish I could use it more than a few days a year.
 
I have a Remington 700 in left-handed bolt action
in .308, so they're out there. I'm just old-
fashioned enough to feel that large-bore
centerfire rifles ought to be bolt action.

I'm not a big hunter, so I'm just going by what
I've heard/read but I think .308 might be
borderline for elk-sized game and would lean
towards the .30-06

BTW, I'm also an old retired Navy Chief...
 
3006 is a better all around gun. 308 is fine but the 06 is a tad better and has more load options and around me are cheaper to shoot [ shells go on sale more]and if you reload brass is cheaper and easy to get. i have both and both are good in there place for elk and for long rang it a tad weak
 
I believe the 1st thing thats got to happen is
you gotta believe in your rifle. I own a 270,
308, 243, 3040 Krags, 303 British, 300 WinMag
& a 30.06.. I hunted & Killed game with all of
them. Played around with different loads for
what I'm hunting & found what I think works best
for me. With all these gun I own, 1st day of
deer or elk or even Woodchuck's I will grab
my 30.06... I know for a fact they are all
great guns, but I believe in the 06 & have
taken successfull shots with it that are almost
unbelieveable for me..

Randy
 
Ballistically, I believe the 30-06 and the .308 are about the same, the military was behind the development of the latter .308/7.62x51mm (mil cases are slightly different I believe) one of the benefits was that being about a 1/2" shorter, it allowed a soldier to carry more ammunition, to the tune of 2x as much as the previous due to the weight difference, same thing was true when .223/5.56 mm & M16 became standard, don't quote me on any of this, just my simple understanding of same, could be wrong, however both are great, versatile calibers, just look at some loading charts for either. Savage makes a really nice heavy barrel tactical rifle in .308, stainless steel, tack driver, shorter barrel, nice in the thicket, brush or woods, and could easily double for home protection, though I would hate to fire anything that powerful inside a home..... LOL, military ball ammo will punch through a GM tire rim at 200 yds. would easily pass through ones walls ! I like how the savage shoots, its weight and the tack driving groups it makes. I hunt with Federal 150 grain Powr Shok ( sp?) for whitetail deer, just a soft point, out of a springfield M1A, you hit a deer in the neck, 2 shots would easily separate the 2, one I took last fall in that area of the body, when I went to skin it using the golfball method, the head separated from the body, due to the damage that bullet does, one does need to use care in bullet placement, to avoid ruining meat LOL ! Walmarts sells this Federal 150 gr ammo $14/20 rounds, thats still less than military ammo, they are sold out all the time too. I've gone lighter in reloads 130 grain hollow points, little more IMR powder, worked well on whitetail. I think at certain ranges, 30-06 /.308 the right loads would be appropriate for larger game like elk, but I have no experience with same, anyone care to comment on that, seems like a safe caliber to use.
 
A centerfire rifle is nearly useless for self protection. A pistol or a shotgun would work much better for that.
 
My rifle of choice is a 25-06. However no elk in my
part of the world. Think you will be very happy with
the 30-06. It will handle the heavier weight bullets
that elk require. The 308 is a good deer round but
does not have the capacity to handle the elk loads.
Ask a WWII vet. They will tell you that the 30-06
just kicks butt.
 
All stores stock 3006 all the time is one reason and the other is the knock down power. Have one caliber of bullet rather than numbers of calibers rattling around. New guns are nice.
 
You didn't say whether your elks hunts will be guided or on your own. From what several of my friends who spend all their spare cash on guided hunts say, you won't even be allowed in elk camp without ATLEAST a 300 magnum of some flavor with a 338 preferred, Crazy huh!

That being said, some of the guys on the Bear Tooth Bullets forum who live in elk country say that a 308 or even a 270 with care in bullet placement and keeping your range under a few hundred yards is plenty of gun.

The '06 isn't my first choice personally but it probably is the best all around choice. There is an interesting story in a recent American Hunter about the 30-06 being used in Africa on all sorts of game at a variety of yardages, I believe the final tally was something like 12 one shot kills out of 14 animals taken. Of course this was also with some new super whamodyne Federal ammo that blurs the line between the ought 6 and the lesser 300 magnums.
 
(quoted from post at 06:14:05 03/03/11) A centerfire rifle is nearly useless for self protection. A pistol or a shotgun would work much better for that.
Click to expand...

Don't start that... Anything that goes BANG is useful for home defense, even a cheap .22. There aren't too many common thugs that will stand there and take 10 rounds of .22 LR to the face.
 
Ammo in military calibers is cheapest and will
always be available.
.22, .223, 308, 30/06 to less of a degree, 12
gauge & 9mm.
308 will drop a moose with a shot through the
ribs at 400yards. A 50BMG will only wound a moose
at 50 yards if shot through a leg.
Accuracy beats power.
Recreational shooters don't want something with
muzzle blast and bruising recoil.A flinching
shooter will miss with $5000 target rifle.
Ear plugs and a few bucks cutting down the stock
for a big cushy recoil pad is $$$ well spent.
Makes a 308 or 30/06 recoil like a varmint rifle.
 
I'd opt for something for sure with a short action. The new WSM rifles are great. The 7mm-08.
I'd shy away from the 06 for that reason
 
Can't go wrong with a 308. Depending on the bullet choice you can equal (or almost equal) the 30-06 with less recoil - see the ballistics chart. I just bought a new Marlin XS7 in .243 for my 11 year old - about $300 and it has their version of Savage's accutrigger (Profire).


http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_ballistics_table.htm


http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/centerfireBoltAction/XS7.asp
 
Until today I had never known that Lewis and Clark took an air rifle on their exploration trip. Yes, an air rifle---and certainly not a BB gun.

It fired 44 caliber balls with compressed air, and about 22 (if memory serves) before the velocity began to diminish and the gun needed more compressed air again. (800 psi requiring about 1500 strokes of the compressor). The butt of the gun contained the compressed air.

Interesting 8 minute video about the gun.
Video of air rifle.
 
My pistol will be used to get me to my rifle. A centerfire rifle is "Nearly Useless" for self defence???? Riiight.
Jack
 
I would vote for a 30-06 but the 308 is also a good hunting gun. Their not much good for self defence. For that I would look at the new Judge line of 410/45cal.
 
308 or 30-06 both come in very close to each other with the 06 being a tad bit better but not by much and the 06 will kick a bit more also. I just check my re-loaders manual and the 308 with a 130 grain bullet will fly faster then the same bullet in 06 and both use the same bullet being a 7.62/308 and by the way the 06 uses less powder in the cartage then the 308 does as per the manual, 06 uses 51 grains at starting and the 308 70 grains
 
But a real loser strung out on Cocaine will rush you as you put 2 or 3 rounds of .22 LR into him.
 
Ruger M77 Mark2. .30-06, stainless barrel synthetick stock. $600 or less. (I have one)
.30-06 caliber is very common, obviously.
Or go with buying a good used Winchester or Marlin in .30-30.
I will sell you my Ruger, $575. R U interested?
 
Old, check which page you're on. Are you perhaps on the .308 Norma page? You'll never squeeze 70 grains of powder into a .308 Winchester case.
 
For those who didn't see the History Channel on Lewis and Clark expedition, it appears that they bluffed their way through all the Indian tribes as they went along.

The first thing they did when they encountered a new tribe was "demonstrate" the air rifle- It was silent, and could fire 22 rounds as rapidly as you could flick a little lever back and forth to load the next ball. They gave no indication as to how many of these rifles they had, nor did they indicate that the capacity was limited in any way.

The Indians wisely chose discretion over valor, and left the exploration party alone.
 
(quoted from post at 23:57:09 03/02/11) I have been told several times that the 30/6 is better than the 308. I guess that is the Military in me thinking (21 years, retired active duty Chief Petty Officer).

Bad news for me is I am left handed and my left eye as well.

I hope to find something pretty that kills.

Thanks for the pics Lou from WI
Click to expand...

Look back to when the .30-06 and .308 were the only cartridges allowed in NRA match rifle matches. Both cartridges were used in barrels of equal quality as well as the same action and stocks by several top shooters in the USA. Both cartridges were used in matches at ranges from 100 through 1000 yards. Many thousands of rounds were fired in both types. Bullets from 168 through 200 grains were used with several powder, case and primer combinations.

In comparing accuracy between the .308 and .30-06, folks who used each quickly agreed on one thing: .308s were two to three times more accurate than the .30-06. In the early 1960s, it was also observed that competitors with lower classifications using .308s were getting higher scores than higher classified folks using .30-06s; at all ranges. By the middle to late 1960s, all the top highpower shooters and virtually all the rest had switched to the .308. The Highpower Committee had received so many complaints of ties not being able to be broke between shooters using the .308 and shooting all their shots in the tie-breaking V-ring, something had to be done to resolve this issue. In 1966, the NRA cut in half the target scoring ring dimensions.

At the peak of the .30-06's use as a competition cartridge, the most accurate rifles using it would shoot groups at 200 yards of about 2 inches, at 300 of about 3 inches. The 600-yard groups were 6 to 7 inches and at 1000 yards about 16 inches. As the high-scoring ring in targets was 3 inches at 200 and 300 yards, 12 inches at 600 and 20 inches at 1000, the top scores fired would have 90+ percent of the shots inside this V-ring.

Along came the 7.62mm NATO and its commercial version; the .308 Winchester. In the best rifles, 200 yard groups were about 3/4ths inch, at 300 about 1-1/2 inch. At 600 yards, groups were about 2-1/2 inch and at 1000 about 7 to 8 inches. It was not very long before the .30-06 round no longer won matches nor set any records; all it's records were broken by the .308 by a considerable margin. Some accuracy tests at 600 yards with the .308 produced test groups in the 1 to 2 inch range. These were 20 to 40 shot groups. No .30-06 has ever come close to shooting that well.

At 1000 yards, where both the .30-06 and .308 were allowed in Palma matches, the .308 was the clear-cut most accurate of the two. If top shooters felt the .30-06 was a more accurate round, they would have used it - they didn't. In fact by the early 1970s, the scoring ring dimensions on the 800 - 1000 yard target were also cut in about half due to the accuracy of both the .308 Win. over the .30-06 and the .30-.338 over the .300 H&H when used in long range matches.

Most top highpower shooters feel the main reason the .308 is much more accurate than the .30-06 is its shorter, fatter case promotes more uniform and gentle push on the bullet due to a higher loading density (less air space) and a more easily uniformly ignitable powder charge.
 
(quoted from post at 10:08:39 03/03/11) But a real loser strung out on Cocaine will rush you as you put 2 or 3 rounds of .22 LR into him.
Click to expand...

Yeah and someone on enough crystal meth will bull rush you as you pump round after round of 00 buckshot into his belly. So what?

In most REALISTIC situations, not something depicted in the latest Michael Bay movie, the sting from a round or two will make the bad guy run like a scalded dog. He doesn't know what's shooting at him. All he knows is he's being shot, and it hurts.

Regardless of what you have for home defense, you need to be prepared to follow up if/when the bad guy presses his attack after you've run out of ammo.
 
I would go with a 30/30 or better known as a Dirty 30. More deer have been killed with a 30/30 then probably anything else.
 
Buy a Savage model 16 in .308. Great for deer hunting/target. A 12 guage pump and/or 38 special revolver is great for home defense.
 
You need to think along the lines of shooting through your walls into an adjoining room where another family member may be shot, or even through your walls into an innocent neighbor's home. Of course a rifle is useful for self defense but so is a hefty stick if you don't have a better alternative.

Not much beats a short 12 ga pump loaded with 6s or 4s in close quarters.
 
30-06 and the 270 are the same shell casing only difference is caliber. 30 caliber verses 27 caliber. 270 being smaller but faster than an 06. I load my own and have switched brass by resize and trim. 30-30 is a good brush gun if you walk the brush and need a short rifle. 308 is a good rifle that is pretty fast as far as projectile goes. I use a 270 with max.bullet size and loaded heavy. It is all up to the shooter and his preference of the way he hunts and shoots..... Everyone has a different oppinion of what is the best. That is why there are so many guns on the market..You choose what you lean towards. This forum will have no influence on anything you decide....JB
 
My young son owns close to a hundred guns, and claims to be a expert on the subject. That being said, I always got by with a 30-06, 12 guage, and a 22.

So I can only assume he has no idea of what is a good gun to buy, apparently he can't get it right.

His remark is that to shoot a varmit, you do not need a 30-06, as it is to big. Yea well I blow to big of a hole in the dead critter, and it makes to much noise?

Then on the other hand when we butcher beef or hogs, he laughs at me for using a 22, but does agree they are dead always with the first shot, and I know the lead isn't in my oxe tail soup.

I have not read the responces, but there is sure to be some that you need a 50 cal to kill a cat, and stopping power and all that stuff that goes with it. I always say... alert, and hit where you aim is more important.

My son seldom misses, but if he does it is because the wind blew around a twig up on the hill, and caused a turbulance when the muzzle flash went off. When he shoots the 50 cal, he wets his pants each time, kind of like a dog when they get excited.
 
I understand and agree with what you point out. I have the short shotgun, But my rifle holds a alot more rounds. Also, if somebody was to break in, I don't intend to spray my entire house with gunfire. I've shot this rifle a few times and if there is somebody in my house that should'nt be, I'm pretty sure they are going to get more than a couple of holes in them.
Jack
 
I would like to see Old fire 70 grains in a 308.Old once said the 3006 uses a .311 bullet.I always check two different load books and I wont use a load I see on the internet.
 
I had always wondered about that.

I knew that marine and army snipers had all switched to .308 in Vietnam instead of 30-06 even though a large number of M1903A4s and M1Cs were still in reserve. It had never been explain that the "lesser" .308s were actually more accurate rifles.
 
if i could have only one it would be a 308 very hard to beat one for a all round gun.generally a little more accurate than a 30-06 and will shoot very close to the same ballistics wise.easy to reload ,with lots of info and components available..hard to find too much wrong with the 308.
 
I assume you will be hunting in hills or mountains, so I would get a rifle that was light enough to carry all day and one that wouldn't make me cry if it got scratched. .308 is a nice caliber, but you might need something else for elk. Guys I know that elk hunt never have less than a .300 magnum due to long shots and wind.
 
not to get in any arguments here,but it may surprise you to learn there are many, many, rifles marked 30-06 that have barrels that measure .311! literaly tons of foregein rifles were imported after the war. some turned into very fine rifles ,by very reputable companies.rule of thumb used to be , if you couldnt get one to shoot .308 bullets,try a .310,or a .311, or a .312..all were called 30 cal barrels somewhere.even the old 30-30 was made with both .307 and .308 barrels and you bought your sizing dies when reloading accordingly.so Olds rifle very well could have a 311 bore..
 

A brief word on penetration of 30 caliber rifles. After the 30-06 was adopted by the US army it was tested considerably. A 30-06 using military non armor piercing ammunition is supposed to penetrate 1/2 inch of mild steel. Armor piercing ammunition, which has a steel core added to the bullet, is supposed to penetrate 1/2 inch of armor plate, which is hard steel probably similar to leaf springs. The 308 is a little slower and should penetrate a little less but in practice they are probably the same.

Penetration depends on velocity, bullet weight, and bullet construction, with velocity the most important. The Civil War muzzle loaders with large lead bullets would penetrate 1 foot of pine. If fired indide a house it would likely penetrate the walls. High powered modern rifles will do a lot more. Be careful out there.

KEH
 
funny thing about elk,hundreds are killed by bow hunters each year,thousands by primative firearms,and yet when you talk about centerfire rifles they always have to be the very latest whiz bang,go fast, cut down two trees ,split them for wood ,and stack it on the way, magnum.Somehow I just dont buy that.All that tells ME is there are more people who hunt with a centerfire rifle who are not hunters!
 
The elk hunt probably means a .300+ magnum. Those are big motha's. And you probably aren't going to get up close before you shoot. At least from the elk hunts I see on the tube. 200+- yards is getting close in most of them. Unless they're in the brush, sometimes they get close, most of the time they never find the elk.

.243 is more than enough for deer, you can also go varmint shooting with lighter bullets. Lack of punishing recoil and muzzle blast make it nicer to shoot. Especially if you're not a "nimrod", out with the guns everyday, like a guide.
 
Because Winchester sold a million model 94s and Marlin sold a pretty good bunch too. I like the 30-30, killed my first whitetail buck with one...at 30 yards. Unfortunately the 30-30 is a short range/low energy round compared to most rifle chamberings.
 
The mob has been killing people for decades with a single .22 round to the head - usually from a 2-3" barrel.

I don't care how hopped up you are - dead is dead.
 
MY oponion is one of these three: A Sako TRG-42 in .338 laupa mag; a Remington 70 BDL in .308 or a Savage Model 12 in .308 palma
 
Page 292 of the Lyman's 47 edition re-loaders manual with IMR4350 with a 130 grain bullet does in fact state starting load is 70 grains. Sorry but it is in black and white on that page but I may have things wrong since that is the 308 mag and so the 308W would be 47 grains for the same powder and that is on page 274 sorry did not see the mag o yes you are correct for the common 308 but I would be right if it was the mag LOL
 
My bad I did not notice I was looking at a 308 mag instead of a 308W but then I know your god and do not make mistakes and I'd like you to show me where I said 311 in an 30-06 since I have not found it but as I said I'm human but your act like your god
 
Since I can not go back and edit my first post of this morning let me correct it here. The 06 takes 51 grains of IMR4350 and the 308 takes 47 grains of the same powder and the 308 pushes the bullet at a tad over 2500 fps. Sorry I got the pages wrong and was looking ar a 208mag instead of the 308W
 
M77 is a great rifle. I have an RSI model in .270. 8MM mauser is a great round to shoot and if you can pick up an old mauser at auction, you can be money ahead.
 
M77 is a great rifle. I have an RSI model in .270. 8MM mauser is a great round to shoot and if you can pick up an old mauser at auction, you can be money ahead.
 
I agree with everything you say, it is obvious you spent time on the range. You are however mixing High Power Service rifle, High Power Match Rifle and PALMA competations. Also this happened over the course of several decades when they were learning much about how to make rifles shoot well, not to mention the development of better bullets and shooters for that matter. The transition from 06 to 308 was happening and everyone was following the military, it is where the research was. This guy is looking for a hunting rifle. IMHO what happens at 600 to 1000 yards has nothing to do with hunting. Back in the day the Navy built up a bunch of 7.62 NATO M1s (the reason 308 M1s are legal in Service rifle), they were better than rack NM guns but they was a lot of care spent putting them together. Still they couldn't beat the M14s. Some of this was due to the reload method and some to how the gas cylinders and wood hang on the gun. The Army also but great pains into building those M14s right, the ammo also. In a hunting rifle I doubt anyone would ever know notice the difference in power or accuracy between the 308 and 30-06. Now days using a 308/M14/M1A in service rifle competation is a good way to make sure you will not win. I earned a High Power Master class with a Bushmaster clone AR 15. I could not have done it with a M1A. Still David Tubb and the Tompkins Gallager klan (wish I could shoot like a girl) could beat me if they were throwing rocks . I know nothing of PALMA, but when I was shooting competatively the 30 magnums ruled the 1000 yard iron site games. My favorite factoid about about Service Rifle competation, after they adopted the 03 they had to ban the 30-40 Krag because the new rifle was not competative with it. The reason I hunt with a 06 is because that is what I started with and have had no reason to change. Also, ammunation is avaliable everywhere they hunt animals. Not so I think for the guys with the short mags/ultra mags.
 
Very well said. If the shoe fits, put it on! If an elk can be killed with a bow (and many are) then a 30-30 will do the job too. Get close enough to make a good shot. A 308 is plenty for an elk.
 
See you can not or will not back up what you say but I did the right thing and corrected my mistake when it was pointed out That said I told you once I'll not bother you if you will not bother me can you be man enough to do that or is this god thing to much for you. Oh do not answer ths since I will not see it any how
 
For a shooter in competition shooting a match-prepared rifle, the difference in accuracy is significant. For a typical sporter shooting factory ammo, it is not. I'll put my .30-06 M70 with handloads against any factory .308 shooting factory ammo.

There is much speculation as to why the .308 seems to be more accurate than .30-06. One possible reason is the chamber throat on the .308 is typically tapered more gently than the '06.

You might be interested to learn that the Army is rechambering its sniper rifles from 7.62 NATO to .300 Winchester Magnum. The .308 is proving to be inadequate at typical engagement ranges in Afghanistan.
 
208 Mag ? Did Ruger/Federal, Browning/Winchester Ammo or Marlin/Hornady come up with anouther new cartridge that serves no usefull purpose and will go the way of the eastern cougar in a couple of years?
 
You wont find many 30 caliber rifles coming in here from foreign country.The 303 Britsh ,russian, the SKS are all 31 caliber.The german rifles are 32 caliber.most Japanese rifles are 31 caliber.A 30 30 bullet will slip right into the bore of my 303 and SKS.
 
I knew a fellow that had 600 guns.When he died an auction was held.I forget how much money it took in.
 
Old makes mistakes on handloading.If you correct him he brings up God and hate.I get nervous when wrong info is posted on handloading.I wont use any pet loads from the internet.
 
To EVERYONE!

You all really have shared a world of knowledge in regards to rifles. I appreciate that very much! However, I didn't find what I wanted due to my left-handed ways. I want to find exactly what I want.

Again,...THANK YOU!
 
Savage makes a pretty good rifle, especially for the price. They do NOT charge a premium for their left handed guns. Their "package" guns (come with a scope, but no iron sights) are normally a pretty good deal.

I got mine in 30-06, but if I were doing it again I might go .308. .308 can be had in a shorter action, w/ a shorter bolt throw. 30-06 can be loaded up a little heavier, for a real heavy bullet (Grizzly Bear -- I don't want to mis-quote loading data so I'm leaving the numbers off). I think .308 get you a plenty-heavy bullet for elk. If you're dumping a lot of money into it for accuracy, you can wring more accuracy out of the .308 (smaller case, less air, more uniform burn, the same smaller case that limits your powder for the heavier bullet that the 30-06 can use). For an off the rack hunting rifle I certainly wouldn't see the difference.
 
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