Re--The replies to my last post

Ok guys, these weren't the kinds of replies I was looking for. That said, the supplier I got my belts from has been in business since the 20's and was highly recommended to me by several other reputible suppliers. Each of those suppliers told me that they would have to get the belts from him first, even if I was to order through them. Given the cost of belting nowdays they were nice enough to guide me to him instead of further inflating the cost of the belts even more by the addition of shipping, markups, etc. For that I was grateful given that the two belts were already over $100 with me picking them up. Heck looking at McMaster Carr the 1 1/4" x 11' belt alone would have been nearly $90 by itself, with the other belt I would have been looking closer to $150 or so if I had gone through them so I felt like I got a pretty good deal even at that cost. Heck think about what two large V belts the same lengths would have cost.

Now, reardless of wether the line about the age of the cows is right or wrong, suppliers are still having problems getting good quality leather in the thicknesses they could in years past. There in is yet another reason several suppliers guided me to one single supplier who was successful in getting the needed material. Now wether it's the age of the cows alone or the way they are bulked up for sale, or whatever the problem, it still stands that there is a problem. As far as this particular supplier goes he said he handles alot of round leather belting for certain applications. He said the larger round belts needed to come out of a single piece as they couldn't be layered and glued like the flat belts could, and that a 'not quite round' belt caused by trying to cut one out of a thin hide just didn't work. Honestly I really can't see him cutting his own throat buying material that he knows won't work in that application and trying to sell it knowing it won't work. Honestly that would be plain out stupid and the fact that this business has been around since the 20's and has survived the loss of much of their business when the mills began shutting down, means that they must know a little bit about what they are doing. So, wether the problem is just in this area or not, wether there was a problem a year or more ago or not, there is a problem getting good quality leather in the same thicknesses it used to be readily availible in.

With all that said, and discounting the age of the cows since everyone thinks that is BS, can anybody out there give me a valid reason that the good, quality, thick leather that was cheaply available, in quantity, in years past should be in such short supply? I know Dad used to buy belts for some machines he had back in the late 70's to early 80's and back then it was really easy to find locally and while not cheap it wasn't nearly as expensive as it is now. Last time I looked several years back there was no one local to me with anything so I had to expand the search out over a 100 mile radius of me to find just a couple of suppliers still in business. When I initially talked to the guy he didn't say thick leather no longer existed, what he did tell me was that it was extreemly hard to come by in large quantities like it used to be. In the end cows are still cows, and leather is still leather, and except for the fact that cows are 'artificially' fattened up and taken to market alot sooner nowdays than they were in the past (in an attempt to boost profits just like ever other product from crops to other robotic built, mass produced consumer items) what exactly could be causing the problem? The only things I see different the way things are being done NOW, with the speedy fatten and get to market, mass production approach using 'chemicals' unheard of 50 plus years ago-- VS-- they way they were done THEN, when the cows grazed in open pastures, and were 'driven' to market by guys on horseback and not in a trailer behind a truck.

So, still curious as to anyone experiencing similar problems as asked in the origional post, and also looking for valid reasons for this problem since everyone seems to think that the guys answer to it was BS.....Inquiring minds want to know and I like to learn.........

Don't you have any WORK to do Wayne?

Heck, I'm even gonna head over to the shop and TRY to do something USEFUL today!

I didn't know you could still get leather belting. Dad couldn't find them locally in 1980, they said really no demand..... Do you have any suppliers? We have a forge with a cobbled vbelt driving the hand crank blower....

What are electric cars gonna drive on in a few decades? The tree huggers don't understand the relationship of tar roads and petro fuels.... And the battery cars are not designed to travel gravel roads.

--->Paul

I offered to get you quality rubber belts at a fraction of that cost, but you declined
Quitcher bitchen.

Wondered that myself.

Only thing I can come up with, and have nothing to back it up, is that cows are bred and selected for quality traits. possibly thinner hide has been bread into them for some reason????

I'm on my lunch break. I would say that it is like so many parts that we need for anything old. Supply chain costs escalate, volume of sales plummets. divide cost by quantity moved, handling/storage price goes up. Very few companies want to carry low volume stuff so they charge you extra when they do it.

My thought it that these belts are most likely coming from Foreign Countries such as China, thus of less quality. The leather is probably cut too thin which is directly related to economics of scale.

There is no market for thick leather, hence no supply.

Hides have to be split to a uniform thickness. If you split it thin, you can use almost the entire hide. If you split it thick, you can use the center of the hide but the thinner remants on the outside edges will be too small for most purposes. So the thicker the material, the greater the waste. Combine that with the fact that there's little demand for thick leather, most tanneries won't bother with producing thick hides.

Now move the whole process to China, and you can see why your supplier is having a rough time. Maybe there's a niche market for high-quality US-produced thick leather that someone can move into. Of course you'll have a hard time finding anyone who is a legal resident willing to work in a tannery.

Sir, you have a problem. Anyone who thinks cattle are "artificially" fattened up.......gosh.....you've just got a problem. But that's OK, we still like to know what the "tree hugging left" has to say.

Even though some of his comments are unfactual, let's not deny the fact that cattle raised for beef and dairy products are given rBGH and bST.

I don't know and can't explain the reasons why , but I am sure it is alot harder to get good quailty and quantity of just about everything anymore.
Here at work we are held up production of several machines awaiting parts to be shipped in mostly from overseas.

In response to your comment about not being able to find these leather belts. I would suppose that there are not many machines made today, out there, that require leather belts. With that being said, there is not much reason for NAPA or TSC or whatever source you use to get your supplies, to stock them or even have access to them. I would guess that in the early 1900's you would probably be able to get a harness for your team of horses or get shoes put on a horse in almost ANY town in America. Now, just like back then, there is a thing called supply and demand. There is not much of a demand for horseshoes and harnesses, so therefore, you have to go farther to get these services. As for the quality/thickness of leather, I'm pretty sure there is "thick" leather being produced somewhere in the world, just probably not going into belts for machinery, since rubber belts would probably be cheaper to make and last longer. Now I know somebody will make a comment about being able to get harnesses made by the Amish. I'm sure that is possible, but that is a long distance from where I live!!! Heck, I bet the Amish probably make their own leather and could probably even make the belts!

You mustn't have paid much attention in school!
Everybody knows that cows are made in factories these days by artificial means,same as milk.

Natural Farming is a thing of the past,its called "factory farming" today.

There are still alot of cattle fed out that are not given growth hormones

not everyone uses bst. we dont and no one that ships milk to my dairy does. i wish i could go back to using it because cows are healthier when they are on bst.

I don't know... but I would suspect that the market for such thick leather is just very small, hence not really being worth bothering with. What does it cost someone to tool up for that? For how much business? Easier (and more profitable) to simply not bother with it.
How much stuff today even uses flat belts anymore, let alone leather belts? I'm not talking about century old equipment but new, built today equipment.
I'd suspect the answer to that question is absolutely nothing...
Thus there is no supply.

Rod

I agree with you. Please don't misunderstand me. I am not saying everyone does

Please qualify your statement "cows are healthier when they are on bst".

It is proven in studies through the FDA that bGH and bST increase the cause of cancers, mastitis, joint/bone problems, delayed healing of lacerations, and incresed susceptibility to common infections and parasitism.

Years ago steers were butchered at 2 to 3 years of age and had thick hides suitable for shoe soles, belting and pump parts. I would suppose the majority of steers are slaughtered less than a year old. I think older steers and bulls have heavier hides than slaughter cows.

Not true on my farm or any other dairy that i know. Now i cant speak for farms i dont know. Anyway to keep high producing dairy cows healthy you have to keep them eating. BST does just that.If a cow is comfortable and eating good she will be healthier.

When I said artificially I obviously wasn't being precise enough with the statement. I'm a mechanic by trade, not a livestock farmer, so by saying artificially I meant that nowdays cows, along with the majority of other types of animals typically raised for human consumption,, are routinely given growth harmones, fed with enhanced feed, etc in ordeer to fatten them up as quickly as possible. I understand the reasoning behind this is to get the product to market as quickly and as profitiably as possible. Still a cow fattened to sale weight on growth harmons, enhanced feed, etc isn't going to be as old or have as thick of a hide as one that has been put out to pasture for several years before being sold. As I said I'm not a farmer so I don't have a clue as to how long it takes a cow to form a hide of any specific thickness, all I know is based on what I was told by the supplier as well as by comments made on here so far, cows butchered sooner in life than others tend to have thinner hides.....Thus the problem coming up with thicker, single pieces of leather suitable for belting....

Nobody is bichin, I got two good leather belts for what I considered a good price given the current economy. Thing is I just asked a question yesterday and got slammed because I was obviously given some bad information about the age a typical cow got slaughtered nowdays. All I'm trying to do now is get some good information from those that claim to be in the know more so than I but wind up with nothing but a bunch of generic answers but not one to the specific question asked.......

That aside I appreciated the offer on the rubber belts and gave the thought alot of consideration but in the end had to pass up on the deal. Being designed the way these machines are they were made to run with leather belts , the pullies are crowned for leather belts, sized for leather belts, etc. Too when turning a questionable piece or drilling a large hole the leather belts can be tentioned to slip a little and provide a safety or sorts where the rubber ones would tend to grab and not let go. So I decided to use leather belts as was origionally intended. Again I'm not now, and have never been bichin about the belts, and thanks again for the offer.

I had to spend the morning setting around waiting on parts that I didn't know when were gonna show up so I decided to use the time as a learning tool. Unfortunately given all the responses from those supposidly 'in the know' that slammed me yesterday, I've yet to see one that gave any valid reason for the lack of thick hides. They sum it all up by claiming supply and demand but that is all BS. That theory obviously works when it comes to the actual cost of the belting but as to the quality of belting available in regards to the origional post, it falls way short of explaining anything. The only explination that holds any water is younger cows being slaughtered means thinner hides going to market, wether they are 6 months old or whatever age....period

From what I have read and heard you'd be suprised at how much leather belting, etc is still being used in equipment nowdays. As I said in this post the guy said they lost alot of business when the mills started closing down here in the states. Since thewy all went overseas I'm betting that the need for the belting is going to go right along with it....

Best answer I've seen yet and the only real one at that. In fact other than the information about the age the cows are slaughtered it's exactly what I said to start with...and got slammed for....

Hers'a a link to Vaughn's site where I got my belts. Like I said previously I called several places to start with and was told that they were getting all their belting from Vaughn so I was better off to go directly through them than to add in another middle man and additional cost to something that already wasn't cheap.
Leather belts

If you do a little research you'll find that, like you state, there is a difference between center cut hide and side cut hide. The closet to the center the tougher the hide and the less stretch you'll get. In one refference book I found from around 1914 it tells you everything you want to know about hides and then some. Back then there was even a 'milspec' on leather belts. It specified the distance from the center cut allowed on belts of different thicknesses being used in military applications, and went on to specify that anything over , I believe it ewas 6 inches, had to be cut from the center to be considered usable by the military.
nnalert all you want to know about leather belting and then some.

Old 10 yrs plus cows are slaughtered every day. According to USDA website there are 30.8 million hd of beef cows that have had a calf (so they are at least two years old) in the US on Jan 1 2011. If the average useful life of a beef cow is 10, farmers and ranchers are keeping 10% back for replacements every year, and 10% are removed from the herd, by death or culling. At any rate There's about about 3 million hd that would meet your qualifications.

Someone else had mentioned horse hide, are you sure the belts weren't normally made from horses which is now illegal to slaughter in the US?

No one is selecting for hide thickness, there are no EPD's for it. Maybe you should call the Angus Association and push for thicker hided cattle. I doubt it will have any effect on the price or availability of your belts.

To some it up, the farmers/ranchers have NOTHING to do with this supply/demand issue.

Nate
Sheep Farmer/Rancher ......and proud of it.

No steer is ever ready for market in a year"s time, no matter how it is fed.

The place that Wayne bought the belts is in the same park as my shop, and is a well-respected company that has been in business for many years. It is one of the few places left that actually stocks leather belting. At one time, the textile mills used a huge amount of leather for shuttle box liners and such, but that business is about gone now..

I deal with the belting company sometimes, and have always found them to be fair and honest to deal with. I would not hesitate to recommend them to anyone needing leather or any other type of belting.

I respect your opinion and observations regarding your farm and friend's farms.

I'm with the BS crowd, but.... Leather is almost all exported for processing. A lot of old cow leather came from dead cows. Yup, I got the grand tour one time, and once was enough. When the 'dead wagon' picked up the cows before they were rendered there was a crew of 'persons of questionable immigration status' skinning the carcasses. The hides were shipped to S.E. Asia to make into industrial leather.

With the change in FDA's ruling on what can be rendered and what cant our local receiving station closed. There is another company doing dead animal pickup but its not nearly as cost effective or convenient. Plus, the animals have to be worked up at an out of state plant. I've had more billable hours on the backhoe and dozer the past two years burying animals than anything else.

So, all that good old cow leather isnt going to China for industrial leather anymore. What is, I suspect they are keeping.

See JMS's post; had started a post saying the same thing (with a little more 'bite') and thought, "What's the use?" Though we were both born in '44, he seems to have more tolerance............

hang in there wayne.

Wayne, I am no expert by any means but a lot has to do with the breeds. Per the owner of a sale barn in Iowa, Santa Gratutis cattle for example are known to have very thick hides so the price a farmer gets for his Santa Gratutis cattle are lower than say an Angus of equal weight because the Santa's hide is heavier. This is further compounded by a finicky market that thinks they can actually taste the difference between breeds, Angus being the rage for the last several decade or more. So it is conceiveable that there is a lesser supply of the thicker hides.

rBGH and BST are the same thing...It is a NATURALLY OCCURRING hormone, found in milk. Levels in milk from BST injected cows are no higher than levels in milk from untreated cows. It is not used in slaughter animals, it is used only in dairy cows, to increase milk production. These are FACTS, not BS or speculation.

"Tanks, turlow" (sp) intended- rhymes better. It"s a shame how much simply wrong info gets passed around- witness my later post about beef animals not being fed/injected with BST, even if an ignorant public thinks that. Simply not done. I don"t understand why Wayne is offended, finding out that beef is not six months old...,he simply got fed BS from someone who didn"t know anything about beef farming, but unfortunately, the supplier spreads the ignorance to who knows how many customers. I have two flat belt driven lathes...if I need a belt, maybe I have to ask a neighbor who goes on African safaris, and can shoot an elephant. Regarding my "tolerance"- I don"t have much- I"m a bull-headed, hot-headed Kraut, and after a few cervesa"s, or Bacardi"s...you don"t want to know, but some day, I"d like to visit you about that. BTW, I think you are in Southern Indiana, or Illinois, and people raise cotton there? Would love to find an AC cotton picker and show it locally! Saw one at the Amana Colonies a few years ago.

I think you'll find the average is more like 18 months...
I'd have no worries in saying that there's also plenty of individuals that take far longer than that.
I'd also have no worries in saying that there would be plenty of slaughter bulls on the market with plenty of age on them... or old beef cows that have hides plenty heavy...
The real question... is there a sufficient price premium for those hides to make it worthwhile for the slaughter houses to separate that stuff for a specific market so that a tanner could treat them in the manner necessary to get the right outcome?
My guess is no...

Rod

Nah.........I'm in West Tennessee, about 50 miles North of Memphis. Actually, at the moment, I'm in a Sheraton hotel in Nashville; SWMBO is attending a 4-day Rotary training session and I'm the designated driver. Have got a picture (made in the '50s) of a neighbor's A-C picker....of a type that I didn't know existed. I'll try to scare it up and post it when I get home.

Wayne, I am a life long cattle producer that has tried to make a living doing so. It's been tough to say the least. When I see statements about my industry that simply are not factual or "bent", it makes it even tougher to do what I've strived to accomplish for 45+ years. Thus, perhaps may reply to you was unnecessary, perhaps even rude. For that I apologize.

I'm a darn good cattle producer. I'm a pcss poor mechanic. Perhaps we could both learn from each other. Regards. RK

I worked in a wood shop that ran an old planer that had a leather belt that had to be skived and glued to gether in place.It took 2 men a good part of the morning .Too many parts would have to be removed to put on a ready made belt.I have an old flat belt driven metal lathe that I never set up when I moved.When the leather belts wore out they were replaced with cotton rubber.I worked in the mills I learned to splice rubber belting.All the old pickers had flat belting,Now there are only a few places on a cow where you can get thick leather.If you need a long belt you have to skive and glue up leather.Cotton belts run fine on crowned pulleys.I ran an AC roto baler for a few years that wore out a few belts.Still have my splicing tools.I used Alligator splicing that you could clinch with a hammer.I still have a length of new leather belting,hope I never have to use it.