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Timber prices/practices

B

bruster

Member
Dad's had a few timber "harvester" companies contact him about logging his 45 acres of wooded area.
This MIGHT be OK, but when they come out to see what he has (mostly Red Oak, Maple, Beech at 40-60year growth) no one wants to quote any prices right off, or even give an approximate $ value for 1000 bd ft.
We want the woods not left as a trashed area with tops and cutoffs strewn over the floor, and no trees taken under 20". The woods NOW are clean where you can drive tractors anywhere under the canopy with trailers. Talked to 3 companies and so far all they want to do is drop 'em, cut the tops, and drag them out.
Are we hoping for too much?
 
Here is a way to consider doing this...you will at least get what your timber is really worth, get it done the way you want it done and can use the CF to see the project done from start to finish.

Tim
An option....
 
Yes, I think you are asking too much.

A timber company doesnt give a rip about you and will take what he wants and leave you with a mess. ----And a little bit of money.
 
I agree with 8Nr--WI, use a reputable forester and it will be money well spent.

I think that you should also re-consider your minimum 20" diameter limit and I expect that a forester will back me up on this. In many species, especially maple, the heart becomes too big as the diameter increases and the value of your timber will actually decrease. Look into this.
 
Just don't do anything. No bigger thief and liar in the world than a logger. I have lived in 5 countries and been in some of the worst slums on the planet, and the only time I ever pointed a gun with the intention to kill someone, was a logger running away. The sheriff heard it all before, and didn't press charges against me, and said there was no way to get money out of him in court or out, so there was no sense pressing charges against him. If you can dig up some talented hillbilly that does handmade furniture, sell him one tree at a time judging board feet standing, or after being sawn up- or, very less likely, a one in a million timber co that will police the logger day to day and PAY YOU IN ADVANCE IN FULL, with a written stipulation that if they leave a mess, they pay extra (lotsa luck) OR, cut it up yourself for firewood. Actually, with the way the world is just now, firewood is worth more as btu's than prime logs as veneer. If you are hard up for cash, sell the wooded land as is and don't look back. I am shopping for a bigger new place myself lately, the last one was half fields, half woods, now I just want all field, a tree or two on the fence line will be just fine.
 
Are you talking about the hollow center some trees get? Dad and I just cut a 40" maple and a 24" black Cherry (both solid) and had the Amish saw them up so we could get 'em dried for furnature and wood around the house.
 
Like Jokers and 8Nr-WI say, get a forester and you will get a good logger who wants to be referred again by the forester. You can ask at the town office for some foresters to call. They know who the good ones are, because the town collects timber tax from you.
 
Get your money up front before a tree is dropped. Have each tree evaluated and paid for. If the tree is rotten inside it is still their tree.

Might want a deposit for damages/cleaning.
 
Have a forester mark your trees and sell them by the board foot on the landing.The problem right now is that lumber prices are way down. If you can hold out for a few years I think you will be money ahead.
 
I really don't think you're going to find any timber cutter that's going to cut up the tops & pile them for you. It's just too much cost for them. If you & your dad want it done that way, why not take your time and cut it yourself, drag it out to a place where it can be loaded, call a buyer to come and give you a price on the logs. He'll give you a price on each log as he measures it. Then any damages to your woods will be what you created and you will realize more profit although you'll also have the expense of your work. Just my thoughts, keith
 
10 Years ago we were dropping trees when needed& wouldn't have thought a thing about it! Dad's 83 now, moving a lot slower and I'm on disability for my back.
 
Couple of thoughts--I don't own any woods but have cut up a lot of tops for firewood over the years. Hire a reputable professional forester to handle the sale of your timber. He reports to you not the logger. Consider using horses to skid the logs out. I have seen a lot of damage done by skidders in the hands of some one who doesn't care a bit about your woods. More trees damaged than cut, and they'll never recover from it. If you can get someone to cut up the tops for firewood that's a plus. They'll only be good for a few years anyway, and after the big trees are cut briars, etc. will take over fast and make cutting them up a miserable job. I've done it, I know. Just my observations, get paid as much up front as you can, loggers promises are no good at the bank.
 
my sugestion is put two rings of spray paint around the tree one on the tree and one on the stump every stump better be marked. Contact the state forester for references. I do know your timeber is about worthless compared to buying nice native lumber at the lumber yard. Keep the lumber and buy yourself some nice woodworking equipment and have at it. I have seen many piles of old knotty walnut and oak boards drug out of the barn and sold at auction sell for way more than it is worth at farm sales. just my .02$
 
I've experienced this situation with loggers, some, not all, are terrible in the woods, roads, damage etc. I have caught same off the property stealing, cutting trees that they do not have permission to cut, just close enough to make it easy. Do some research, work out some details, and have it on your terms.

Yes, they want production, don't care about the mess, tops etc,. roads, and damaging trees that are left, yes I know thinning is not an easy job. In addition to that the shear waste of good firewood or pulp wood, is incredible, I have seen enough bad logging outfits, but also have seen decent ones who don't perform their work with such callous attitudes.

Bottom line is money, I can understand that, but while they are on site, have the equipment, a lot of this mess is not necessary, nor is the waste. Myself and 2 good friends draw wood from a huge pile of tops, stacked, not easy to deal with but all good hardwood, been stacked for years, nice and dry, though eventually it may not be much good, they did not leave it in the woods. Sooner or later you'll be able to make a deal, with someone who would compromise, do try to avoid the other kinds, better to let it stand without any doubt in my mind.
 
I agree with the others suggesting you get a consulting forester. Not sure where you live, but many states have state foresters that may be able to help you. (In NY NYSDEC). Also most states may have a Forest owners association that may be able to guide you to a good forester. I have a friend who is a consulting forester and can tell you for sure you will end up with a better price on your woods as well as have a better chance of having things go the way you want. As far as tops go, I"m not sure most loggers will want to clean them up , but they are an excellent source of firewood unless they are inaccessable . My neughbor had his woods cut(no forester) and let my dad and I go in and cut up the tops to get them cleaned up.The logger was supposed to cut the tops up so nothing was over 2" high. They cut a few branches off a few tops but left most of them as is. We also cleaned up a couple landings where they left a couple split logs and the stump ends . As mentioned, the price of logs is low now compared to a few years ago, you may want to wait a bit to harvest . A good forester can help you with that too.
 
You're being unrealistic thinking you're not going to have the laps..tree tops as you call them in the woods after they cut logs.What are the loggers going to do with the laps? Guess they could chip them up but then you will pay for that.No logger will probably be interested especially since there is going to be not much timber to cut anyway.Gov't bureaucrats working in forestry depts are still Gov't bureaucrats at least get a private timber cruiser.
 
Talk to the Amish. They are the only ones that will clean up the tops for firewood & not hurt the woods with their horses.
 
hire a consulting forester, he will inventory the trees to be cut, mark them, put the lot out to bid, do a cutting contract with the logger, with terms that you want to include in the contract, then the logger or buyer will PAY YOU IN FULL before he even puts a piece of equipment on the property. One of the clauses in the contract should give you the right to throw the buyer off the property if the contract is violated. This the only way to sell timber and insure that you will not be taken advantage of. do not use the logger's forester, he is not working for you. You will have to pay the consulting forester, usually they will charge a percentage of the volume (board feet) of timber to be harvested. It is well worth what you pay him. I have had 2 timber sales done this way and have been well satisfied that I got he best value for the timber sold, and control of the way the loggers worked. Good luck
 
67 years old and all I can say is good luck. Most if not all loggers are not going to mess with your tops. They are in the logging bussiness not cleanup bussiness. If you get someone to do it on your terms I doubt that you will get top dollar from the trees. Nowdays it is all about the dollar. Bought 67 acres 2 years ago that the timber had been cut 20 years ago. Had it clear cut for logs and pulp recovred all my purchase price but $ 2800.00 but had to spend another 24 thousand to get it into crop production. It was suronded on 3 sides by land we already farm.
 
As a forester I will say find a good reputable forester in your area. Have him walk the stand with you to find out what your goals are for the area. Then have him write a long term management plan for the area. Then if a timber sale is in the works have him mark the trees and put the sale out to bid.

Having nothing smaller than 20" cut is bad practice. Trees over 20" can put on good growth and retain a lot of value. Where as a tree smaller than 20" that is junk now will still be junk in the future... All things a good forester should discuss with you. Also leaving the tops on the ground provides a "slash mat" for the equipment to drive on, thus reducing damage to the soil. The tops also decompose and help build up the soil.

In a hardwood stand generally the best management practice is to thin the stand to a certain density and perform that thinning across ALL of the diameter range.


Personally I mark stands cutting the worst and junk first to get to my target density. Then if more is needed start working on marking some of the better trees (or anything that you feel isn't going to survive until the next harvest). Leaving the best trees for good genetic seed source and to put on growth and value during the next harvest cycle.
 
The short answer... if they follow your wishes, they don't make any money. Those were probably the honest ones that walked away...
Even if they limb out the tops and remove usable firewood you're still going to have a considerable volume of slash. It would be best to leave that to decompose...
What's the reason for wanting it all cleaned up? Think you would need to loosen up about the size restrictions as well. Around here they'd do a lot of roaming around looking for trees of that size, basically burning time and getting no wood. Just not worthwhile.


Rod
 
Or you could have happen what happened to my buddy. He bought 80 acres of mostly swamp covered with mostly cedars. Waaaay out in the sticks, too far for living or developing, but he wanted it strictly for hunting. some shyster logger comes to him to see if he wAnts it logged. well it was too thick for good deer hunting so, yea, he would log it. So the guy says its not worth much, how about I take the timber and leave you enough cedar to build a sauna. OK my buddy says. guess who made out on that deal. I found out a year later. I said you know that timber was worth thousands? My buddy says no! he's a pro and he would know more than you. Besides I got good hunting land out of it. Ha, I hope that deer is good eatin cuz it cost him a fortune.
 
I'll repeat what others have said about the foresters. As to what to do with the tops and such, you can get anything you want, done any way you want, but it comes at a pretty high price. One of the best jobs I've had in a while was cleaning up for a logging company where the landowner had similar stipulations to yours. I bid the job for 90 acres of woods clean up for 500 hours of dozer, 500 hours of skid loader and brush grapple and 1000 hours of chainsaw labor. For a total package with bonding and everything. Logger doubled my price and reduced that from what he paid for the stand. The land owner would have been way ahead to have just paid me straight meter time.
 
I hesitate to comment, but here goes. . .

One of my good neighbors sold his timber, and I couldn't believe the mess they left in his woods. He has ruts that are waist deep on me, and I'm 6'4" long. Dropped trees on our line fence (propped it with poles to keep the cattle in) wallered the fence over from dragging logs next to it, plus the wheel traffic. Tree tops laying every direction - looks like a tornado and an earthquake and a war hit all at the same time. Neighbor was one of the best, but had cancer and I guess had to compromise his situation due to the health care costs.

That nice clean woods that you describe has a value, in it's beauty, well beyond anything money can bring.

There ain't gonna be any timber sales on my place.

Unless my wife's health fails and I can't afford the necessary healthcare. . .

Paul
 
If you dont know timber get some help . Let them know they are not to be in there unless it is dry or hard froze , you will have to cleanup the tops . Just keep in mind that most timber buyers , cattle buyers and used car salesmen are all cut from the same cloth .
 
If you cant do it your self leave it alone.The mess left will shock you .Let your dad remember it the way it was.I have cut fire wood and logs off my land for 40 years and you will have a hard time finding where I cut after a few years.I take the tops and pile the brush.The brush piles rot down.The woods on my east boundry has been cut and its a mess.I take what I need and always take the poor stuff first.Wood butchers have been after me for years to go on my land and cut.I tell them Ill let it rot first.Dry sawed firewood sells for 200 bucks a cord here.With fuel oil at 3.60 a gallon wood will be selling well.I have seen many beautiful spots destroyed by loggers.Woods roads plugged with brush,streams filled with brush.
 
I have seen how many of the loggers work and if you do agree to have anything cut check your woods before any cutting begins.I seen a couple of cases when the says we are going to cut 100 trees and when the owner went in the woods ne found the 100 trees maked on one side amd found 50 or so more marked on the back side. In another case the owner request x amout of dollar up front and the rest after work was done. He is still waiting for the rest 10 years latter. The company changed names and nothing could be done. Now on a postive note. I live in northern Mich and some of the logging companys up here do chip the tops and clean the wood up. The chips are burnt in a steam generating plant.They pay the landowner 4 or 5 dollars a ton. If the tree diameter is small they will clear cut the whole woods and chip up everthing so there are a few good companys left.
 
We found a honest saw mill, Maple Rapids Lumber Mill in Maple Rapids Mi. I have delt with Richard Grubaugh and you can trust him. In our area we have had some bad experences with others
 
I've setup and run dozens of timber sales for all types of clients. All have been satisfied. I have loggers that I know and trust to do good work and all are good at different things. Some are best at utilizing all the top wood, some are best at leaving it look like a park, etc.

Having a solid contract and protect you against undesirables like rutting, residual damage, timber theft, top wood under utilization, etc is an absolute must. Never sell timber on a handshake, sell with a contract that assures you a fair cut of the profits. Having a forester to manage the sale and the outgoing wood helps tremendously.

One thing i always heard complaints about was the skid trails and landings that were left behind. Now if that is a concern we turn them into small food plots for the wildlife. Clients have been really happy.
 
My father in law always made them pile the logs, then a independant scaler came and gave the board feet. The loggers in our area own thousands of acres, so we assume they made a profit somehow.

In a ti case, the company that skidded the logs got the logs, and were of course paid to do the skidding regardless.

In our are the days of trusting the loggers has faded alot.
 
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