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Farmall MTA hydraulic pump

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Dieselsbest

03-18-2023 11:14:21




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Im looking to use the rearend as a resivor and have it figured out, if the pump will pump oil up from the rearend end. Will it or is the oil not going to get to the pump? Heres some rough edited pictures to hopefully show what I mean. Thanks. Third Party Image

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BarnyardEngineering

03-18-2023 15:04:19




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 11:14:21  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Yes, the speed that the loader raises, lowers, and dumps the bucket will be quite slow. Some people have the patience of Job. Others will be tearing their hair out waiting for the loader to raise high enough to reach over the side of the spreader to dump.



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caterpillar guy

03-18-2023 14:55:21




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 11:14:21  
You mention the 560and newer ones use the rearends for a reservoir. Yes they do and the pump is right down in the oil or very close to that so lift point of the oil is only a few inches versus about a foot and 5 feet of hose to pull it through to the pump. And those newer tractors drive at the transmission with a stronger drive to them for more pressure on the system. Also they are only 12 GPM so not a fast loader with them either. IF you want a faster loader you need in the 25-50 GPM to lift fast with 2500 PSI to lift heavy loads or big cylinders to offset pressure being lower.

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BarnyardEngineering

03-18-2023 14:51:59




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 11:14:21  
DeltaRed,

The level of oil in the belly pump is much higher than what it would be in the differential housing, and it is much closer to the pump.



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Hayfarmer

03-18-2023 14:18:21




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 11:14:21  
I have an SMTA with Dual 325 loader. I run it off a PTO pump (live PTO). I tried running it off of my tractor pump once but was disappointing. A friend of mine has an old M with a Lyons INdustrial loader for loading hay. He uses mag pump plumbed into reservoir on loader. It never seemed that slow.



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NDIHC

03-18-2023 14:02:08




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 11:14:21  
I have an M that used to have the distributor mounted pump that was used for power steering and a loader. The loader was S L O W! It would lift about anything though. Until it broke the distributor/pump shaft. That's when we found that someone had replaced the pressure relief valve with a bolt so there was no bypass. It's amazing the cam gear never sheared off! That tractor has an old Du-All loader with a reservoir built into one of the uprights. Runs off a pto pump now since we eliminated the distributor pump and welded the shaft back together. It's been working like that for at least 35 years.

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the tractor vet

03-18-2023 13:04:53




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 11:14:21  
And WHY do you think you need to draw from the rear end?? I have a S/MTA and i have never seen the need for more oil . your sure not going to run and air seeder with a S/MTA where ya need 40-50 GPM And you will never be able to get more then around 1500 PSi out of that with out shearing the camshaft key and gear. .



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Dieselsbest

03-18-2023 17:47:40




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to the tractor vet, 03-18-2023 13:04:53  
OK so if I do put a loader on it and use the distributor pump I will wreck the pump?



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the tractor vet

03-18-2023 18:09:30




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 17:47:40  
No why would it unless you starve it for oil . and who knows how good your pump is to start with . That can only be checked by putting the tractor on what is called a flow rater , this will tell how many gallons per min the pump can put out and what kind of pressure it and the pressure relief will let it make . If the pump is weak then it may not even hit the relief set . and NOT MANY GUYS have the flow rater to do this as that is something dealerships have . I am the only independent that has one anywhere close to me . A NEW pump will put out 12 gallon a min and org pressure was 1250 some have set them up to 1500 on a good pump but as they wear pressure and GPM start to drop. . SOOOo your guess as to how well your system is working is a craps shoot.

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Dieselsbest

03-18-2023 18:38:52




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to the tractor vet, 03-18-2023 18:09:30  
So yes it's ok to put on a loader and use the pump or not?



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Dieselsbest

03-18-2023 13:09:19




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to the tractor vet, 03-18-2023 13:04:53  
To put my Uncles loader on it



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the tractor vet

03-18-2023 17:54:14




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 13:09:19  
Ok , a loader covers a lot of ground here , what kind of loader , cylinder size , double acting or singal acting . one cylinder or two on the bucket of trip bucket. Once you get all the cylinders filled the fluid just really moves from side to side with vary little moving out of the resavor On the org loaders with only lift the back side of the cylinder was the make up oil . Last place you want to draw oil from is the rear end . You have no idea what nastys are hiding in there and when you start moving oil around this will flush them out of there hiding places . Let it suck up a cunk of chipped gear that has been hiding for 50 years get sucked into the pump it will trash out the timing gears in a split second locking up the pump. What you could do is add a tank off the hyd. unit ahead of the factor unit . Now remember ya only have limited psi coming out of the M T A pump and ya can['t push that pump past 1500 PSI and 1500 PSI does not have much lifting power on small cylinders . It will not even lift a four row John Deere 7000 no till corn planter with a 3x8 cylinder when loaded with Fert and corn . Now it will lift a 1240 four row with a 3X8 but they weigh a lot less i can not lift a 1219 J D hay Bine the minium to lift that is 1750 and then that is SLOW .

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Dieselsbest

03-18-2023 18:42:07




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to the tractor vet, 03-18-2023 17:54:14  
Is the pump on the 560 better. Says its rated at 12gpm the same as the m



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Dieselsbest

03-18-2023 18:40:25




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to the tractor vet, 03-18-2023 17:54:14  
Its a Westendorf WL-30 That was on a 560



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Dieselsbest

03-18-2023 12:59:03




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 11:14:21  
Im looking to put a loader on it my great uncle has and I wanted the capacity so I dont run out or get the oil too hot



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DeltaRed

03-18-2023 13:25:17




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 12:59:03  
A PTO pump is best for a loader. More volume and pressure. And you are not wearing out an expencive pump.



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rustred

03-18-2023 13:06:15




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 12:59:03  
that is poor reasoning!



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Dieselsbest

03-18-2023 13:10:24




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to rustred, 03-18-2023 13:06:15  
May I ask why? Thx



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rustred

03-18-2023 13:21:37




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 13:10:24  
you will only need a larger oil tank, due to the loader cylinders volume. loader on this old tractor is not the best. i put a loader on my 560 and its no speed demon. u saying hot oil ,... never will happen. running oil over relief will get it hot hot in a hurry. and the camshaft gear cant take high pressure anyhow.



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Dieselsbest

03-18-2023 13:23:56




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to rustred, 03-18-2023 13:21:37  
The cam shaft wont handle running the stock pump?



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Janicholson

03-18-2023 13:56:33




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 13:23:56  
The cam drive gear is driven from the crank shaft at 2:1 ratio (2 Crank turns one Cam turn) the cam gear is plenty strong to also run the governor and the hydraulic pump, as well as the distributor. But it is not going to accept any more force applied than the stock pump as designed without failure of the gear (teeth strip, or the hub fractures) that causes major repair effort to fix. There are no stronger gears being made. So the answer is either a modestly slow loader, or a PTO pump with far more GPM and pressure. We that are responding to you have seen the issue form every direction, and are keeping you from making mistakes that degrade one of the best tractors ever made. It is OK to use a slow loader it is OK to put a PTO based pump on it for a fast loader. It is bad practice to overload a standard system, or expect the tractor to do service as a production loader that was built for that service. If you need rapid high capacity loading of materials, purchase a single purpose loader machine. Maybe a skid steer with 40 hp. Jim

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Dieselsbest

03-18-2023 14:04:17




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Janicholson, 03-18-2023 13:56:33  
Ok may I ask what you mean by slow loader? Just how fast the hydraulics move? Its a WL30 loader if that helps



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Janicholson

03-18-2023 20:32:55




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 14:04:17  
It is not what I call slow, I have used Cat 966 loaders that could raise from ground to dump truck height is 1.5 seconds. and Terex loaders that were 1/2 that fast. But it is what you intend to do, and how often that counts. Building a loader that can break the tractor and moves like lightning is not cost effective. Listen to the Vet and others. Create what you need, not what you want. It is a multi purpose tractor, not a very good loader tractor. Jim

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Fritz Maurer

03-19-2023 04:12:32




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Janicholson, 03-18-2023 20:32:55  
1.5 seconds? Maybe, if it was a pickup



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the tractor vet

03-18-2023 18:32:22




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 14:04:17  
That is a lot of loader for a S/MTA as it could have 2 1/2 or 3 inch lift cylinders and double bucket and just from guess ta mation here it is meant for later tractors with higher hyd pressure up to 25-3000 Psi max with a lot more flow so the lift would be vary limited and painfully SLOW . I know when i had a 2000 I H loader on my one 706 with a 15 GPM pump and the 2100PSI relief it would lift a good load but it was a bit slow on 15 gpm. and that is pushing the hyd system on the 06's due to filter restriction of 14 GPM .

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rustred

03-18-2023 12:54:19




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 11:14:21  
not good! reasons are listed. distance , dirt and need a filter also, and filters are usually on the return to tank side. separate tank is the cats meow. as ihc had designed it.



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Dieselsbest

03-18-2023 13:04:48




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to rustred, 03-18-2023 12:54:19  
Its drawn out of the rearend on 560s and such right?



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rustred

03-18-2023 13:10:53




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 13:04:48  
yes, but not off the bottom and it is filtered. totally different set up. much improved hydraulic's from 1950's to 1960's



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Dieselsbest

03-18-2023 13:16:52




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to rustred, 03-18-2023 13:10:53  
Ok



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DeltaRed

03-18-2023 12:42:29




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 11:14:21  
What about the guys who use the belly pump for a reservoir? The 'mag' pump has to lift the oil in that application. I have an M with a 'mag' pump that uses the belly pump as a reservoir. Draw oil from the belly pump drain,return to the fill.Never had a suction issue.My good SuperM has the same (undre the gas tank) system as yours. I stripped all the guts from the tank. It is now simply a reservoir,hold about 2+/- gallons. I have never ran out of oil capacity.If I were to use the rear end as a reservoir(as you are wanting to do),I would drill a hole in front of the brake pedals do wn low on the flat part. Tap 3/4 or 1 inch pipe thread and draw oil from there. That gets the suction up off the bottom,reduceing the chance of contamination.Return to either the top oil fill plug;the check plug on the right side;or drill another hole just above the first suction hole.That would be my choice.As said,drain and flush before filling with clean HyTran.

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Absent Minded Farmer

03-18-2023 12:38:19




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 11:14:21  
There's a lot of crud that can build up there & if something should happen, chipped gear, disintegrated bearing retainer, etc, you may have further problems. You can always add a tank somewhere to give yourself greater capacity if you need it.

Mike



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Janicholson

03-18-2023 11:52:58




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 11:14:21  
Three things! the pump may loose prime when parked for a while due to the elevation change. The sucking of oil from a sump is OK if it goes through a filter, not just a screen. The housing would need to be pressurized to push the oil up for priming. unless real Hytran is used it may be unable to keep moisture out of the suction hose, and even hytran has limited moisture absorption ability. In addition to that the hose would be subject to being ripped off in the field, loosing the contents of the final drive housing. Why do you want to do this? Jim

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Dieselsbest

03-18-2023 13:01:06




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Janicholson, 03-18-2023 11:52:58  
Great uncle has a loader I can put on it



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Iowa Joe

03-18-2023 11:47:43




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 11:14:21  
Do you need the extra volume? Sucking from the drain plug will run metal from the transmission through the hydraulic pump with out a filter. Those pumps never were high flow or high pressure.



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fastfarmall

03-18-2023 12:00:13




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Iowa Joe, 03-18-2023 11:47:43  
I agree it is not a good idea, but three is a natural trap below the bull gear, but not sure if there big enough to suffice for what he wants to do,but either way your going to need to take the top cover off, and power was it clean first!! I feel its to low for a hyd oil supply!!



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Smarten_up

03-18-2023 11:19:12




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 Re: Farmall MTA hydraulic pump in reply to Dieselsbest, 03-18-2023 11:14:21  
I'd think you could do that but a height difference between rearend and pump may be a problem. You'd want to ensure the intake side of the hydraulic pump stays flooded with oil.



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