Breaking news / SA-200!

All this talk about hard starting 4-cylinder Continental engines, I decided to take some of the members here advice. I went out and eliminated the shut off valve, and inline fuel filter. Used a new piece of 1/4-inch hose, ran it from the sediment bowel straight as possible to the carb. Cranked her over, soon as the green light came on, the welder fired right off! About an 1/8th of the time it normally takes to start!

I would have bet big money against this, but I would have lost!

Thanks guys for the suggestion!

That's very encouraging. Actually when I went to Continental engines today, the 75 yr. old mechanic said they had a newer machine with a similar problem to mine. They took the big inline fuel filter off and put an almost miniature metal one on. It was running outside their shop. I picked one up along with the solid core plug wires. The filter is a Hastings(made in Taiwan)but only about 5/8" in diameter. I haven't tried it out yet and the weather's supposed to turn ugly for the next couple of days, but hopefully I have as good of results as you did. The mechanic said you can't compare one machine to another and cranking for 20 seconds or so isn't bad. Glad I don't have a crank start! Apparently the carb drain is supposed to weep a tiny bit to prevent gas being sucked into the cylinders when the the ignition switch is shut off and the engine still turning a few revs. The owner said the machine sitting for a couple years could cause harder starting until it gets worn in again.(lower compression issue). The only thing that puzzled me is the mechanic being adament that an SA200 only puts out 200 amps. If an SA200 only put out 200 amps max., there'd be something wrong with it. You'd think a 30 year welder mechanic would know that the 200 amps is only for the duty cycle rating. I guess not? The owner said they've tried a bunch of different plugs over the years and currently are having very good luck with the AC's. They used Bosch for a long time before. The one thing he did say was to avoid Champion plugs. Nice thing about a big forum is all the experience on it. Sometimes you get answers in the strangest way.:wink: Dave

Through out all this I've been meaning to mention to you not to use Champion plugs. Just kept forgetting, comes with age you know! I had a very bad experience with them in my '74', they lasted a matter of minutes, before I could tell the difference. That's when I switched to Autolite, then later to Denso.
I about fell over when the '74' started so easy after removing the inline filter, and shutoff valve. Then I thought no it's just a coincidence because I used that machine earlier in the day, but it had been hours. I must have went out 3 or 4 times to see if I got the same results, I did. Will give her another go in a couple hours when I head out to the shop. I don't like the idea of not running a inline filter, I do have a couple old metal filters like you mentioned, they came off other welders. I ordered a fuel filter to go on my hand pump to my farm / bulk gas tank, I have one on my diesel farm / bulk tank. Maybe later I'll go to town and see if I can find a funnel with a screen / filter in it. I'm going to give this a try until I have trouble.
I really need to get motivated to finish my '66' Redface I have it just about taken completely apart to paint, but other projects got in the way. It is so strange how easy this '66' starts compared to the '74', and the '66' has an inline filter too! :?

Does that machine have a fuel pump? Inline filters are not recommended for gravity flow fuel systems. That is what the sediment bowl is for. If you keep the glass clean,it will show you when you are going to have a problem. If there is a line in the liquid, the bottom part is water. If you let rise to full, water & junk is gonna go to the carb. And NO I don't know why some manufactures tried to hide the sediment bowl, & some made aluminum bowls so you could't see whats in it. Thats my two cents worth.

No fuel pump. The outlet on the sediment bowel is 7-inches above the inlet to the carb, but the gas has to travel 23-inches horizontally! I know a lot of rig weldors chop these machines so they can see over them out the back window of their truck. Guys who even build their welding beds with a well to set the machine in will still chop the height of these machines. There just can't be much fall for the gas with a chopped machine!

The old mechanic did say that the inline filters are a good idea if you don't know where your gas came from. He said on some jobs gas can come from all types of containers and you have no idea what other crap is in there. That's what I found strange about mine. I've never used an SA200 that had to crank for very long. My machine will start good after a few hours but not after sitting overnight. That will be the real test, if the weather ever smartens up. It's snowing like crazy up here. Dave
The new plug wires I bought don't have boots on the plugs. They said you don't need them but don't try to pull them off or hold them with the engine running. LoL It's odd that Stumpfs sells the Champions. My ranger pick up had Champions in it. It's a 4 cyl. with 8 plugs and 3 of them had no center electrode left and one even had the porcelain break. I put NGK's in it. Dave

Dave here is a very nice addition to any SA-200. When the time is right for you I highly recommend a Cable remote. Stumpf's has them on their website, but you can get them cheaper directly from Mrs. Shrilly Cable in Bastrop Louisiana 318-281-1833.
I have a 12 x 16 post frame open sided shed, (basically just a metal roof with six posts) outside my shop that I keep my engine drive welders in / under. I run the leads and remote extension cord under one of the doors so I can weld inside. These remotes are amazingly accurate. 8)

There are lots of remotes available here. It is pipeline country after all. Weld alert has good remotes but there are quite a few different ones available. You can even get one that does 3 turns and locks on your setting. There is a little window that tells what turn you're on. They also have guards to protect the rheostat and magnets to hold them in place. Most of them also have 2 or 4 plug ins for tools on them. Eventually I'd like to have a remote. Real nice if you only need a slight adjustment or are running different rods on the same piece. I still need to get some cylinders and other stuff first. I think I'm going to make a simple skid to put everything in the back of my 3/4 ton. I won't drive it much once I get my little ranger running right. Would make it a lot easier to take where I need it and could have a little table to work on. My tailgate is shot anyway. LoL Did your 74 start right up after sitting overnight? Dave

There is a guy on some of the welding forums, goes by crusier, (Jeff). I think he owns or at least works for Weld Alert, he makes a nice remote for these machines, but they are pricey!

The '74' started right up, about 2-second after the green light came on! I'll be removing all the inline filters from my machines now! :wink:

Yes Jeff, aka Cruzier. I got his card somewhere and can't remember his last name, I think it starts with an A. The story I heard, from a friend of mine, is that Jeff's dad started Weld Alert and Jeff took it over and almost ran it into the ground. Don't know if that's true or not. He said he worked in aircraft avionics and the transition to welder repairs was easy. He had the short hood for $500 and the 58 for $2200. I was interested in the short hood but it's the one that needed the oddball throttle control for the fine adjustment. He's pretty lazy and even says he doesn't work unless he really has to. LoL He has sold a lot of remotes though of several types. I don't think I agree with everything he says but if he's a welder tech and can't get a fine current control to work, what's the chance I could? He was talking to Continental engines about it and they've never seen one like that. Hmmm? His 58 started right up and he said it was rebuilt? but besides it being a little more than I wanted to spend, his shop looks like a tornado had gone through it. He did have some shelves with parts but the rest of the place had stuff(a lot of junk) all over the place. He may be good at fixing welders and building remotes but going through his shop to look at the welders sitting outside, kind of seemed like ordering food from a place that fed the mice.
I was reading some more about inline fuel filters and they can cause a lot of odd problems on a gravity system including starving the fuel and air locks. Apparently they are designed for a pressure fed system. Did you try the mini inline filter? The one I got is a little bigger than I thought but still less than inch in diameter. It's Hastings GF73 filter. When the weather clears up I'll try it out. If I still have a starting problem, I'll have to get a sediment bowl. I think it would be a bad idea to not have something to catch dirt in the fuel line. It is really wierd that these experts on SA200's wouldn't have known about inline fuel filter problems for the last 20 or 30 years! I'd almost be willing to bet that the inline filters were the cause of a lot of other welder starting problems. I hope that's the problem with mine and am pretty confident that it is. The mechanic that says it's OK to crank for 20 seconds or more isn't the one paying for the new starter. Dave

(reply to post at 01:02:15 05/05/10)

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That is an interesting story about Jeff. Generally he is very helpful on the sites. Couple times I've seen pipeliners hand him his azz over wrong information he's posted about these SA-200s! If anybody can keep these old girls running it's going to be an old school pipeliner!

I don't think I'll try any filters at this time. My machines don't leave my property, and I control the fuel. I take my aluminum farm tank to town and fill when empty. I have a fuel filter on the way for it, so I'll give this a try for now.

Instead of going with a sediment bowl, wonder if one of these would work? AC Delco fuel bowl. They're about the same price new, but I bet a guy could get one out of a junk yard really cheap, and buy new filters! What are your thoughts about using these?

Puddles. Looks like it should work. Might be the best of both worlds for a tractor since it has a large filter area and still has a bowl to collect crud and water. The IH sediment bowls still have a fine mesh screen in the top that needs cleaned every so often when stuff sticks to it. However the one pictured is a small sized line input/output and probably is too small for a tractor but if it matches the line size of your welder, then you are ok. No needle valve though.

I think the rub on inline filters for tractors is that the standard ones you find don't really handle the flow needed by a tractor except the $5 ones at napa. They may work new but once they get a little filled up, they can't handle the flow during a big demand. The other part of the rub is that most old tractors have some rust and crud in the tanks and it doesn't take long to fill up the filter making it a costly regular replacement item. They also don't stop water that condenses in a tank particularly during the winter.

You may not have room, but with my tractor, I come off the tank with a tee, straight down drip leg to catch some crud, rust, and water, and a full port quarter turn valve for complete shut off. Then I tie in the sediment bowl. Bought a new sediment bowl from IH and the shut off needle valve at the top always leaked so I added the extra plumbing. I drain the drip leg every so often as well.

I think Jeff knows a lot of stuff but as you say, not as much as an old school pipeliner who's made his living running SA200's for the last 30 or 40 years. Apparently Jeff likes to drink a little and that has been the curse of many businesses. He was talking about the insulation cracking or something like that on the aluminum SA's. I do agree that most all SA200's are a good machine but the real reason the copper ones are prefered the most is because they will keep the same heat setting all day long. Real important for critical work. The same reason aluminum welding cables never got popular. You had to keep turning your heat up as they got hot and then turn it down after they cooled off. Nobody wants a foot pedal unless there doing TIG at a bench.
I think that AC Delco fuel bowl would work dandy on my machine. It could thread right on the street elbow on the bottom of the shut off valve. I'll see if I can find one used. Thanks for the great idea. Dave

bc there is plenty of room for one of these AC Delco fuel bowls under the gas tank. I just might give one a try! All my tanks have 1/2-inch NPT nipple coming out of the tank. These AC Delco fuel bowls look like maybe 1/4-inch NPT. Have to use a 1/2-inch street L and a bell reducer and a close nipple to plumb one of these in.
Couple years ago I ordered some of these filters thinking I was going to beat the system, (never works for me)! This picture shows a AC Delco filter with an old Lincoln sediment bowl glass I had. Story of my life. :lol:

I went all over the place today trying to find one of those AC Delco sediment bowl assembly's or any sediment bowl for that matter. I even went to a GM dealer! Do you have a GM part number? Nobody even knows they exist. Most places said they haven't seen them in years. A&I has regular sediment bowls for tractors though. That might turn out to be the best way to go. It depends what thread is on my tank. I'll try the small diameter inline filter to see if it at least helps starting. I can put a sediment bowl on anytime if the inline works OK. It would be nice to be able to drain water and crud from a sediment bowl though. What a frustrating day. Dave

(quoted from post at 20:50:42 05/05/10) I went all over the place today trying to find one of those AC Delco sediment bowl assembly's or any sediment bowl for that matter. I even went to a GM dealer! Do you have a GM part number? Nobody even knows they exist. Most places said they haven't seen them in years. A&I has regular sediment bowls for tractors though. That might turn out to be the best way to go. It depends what thread is on my tank. I'll try the small diameter inline filter to see if it at least helps starting. I can put a sediment bowl on anytime if the inline works OK. It would be nice to be able to drain water and crud from a sediment bowl though. What a frustrating day. Dave

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I know that you don't want to hear this, but..........................
Even if the filter only flows a drop an hour, if the machine sits long enough, the carb bowl is full, float has shut off the needle valve and it is as ready to start as it will ever be, even if it had a fuel delivery system capable of 10 gallons per minute, so whatever filter you put on, if it passes anything at all, it will not affect starting. Now, if it is only good for one drop an hour, it will die after about 1 or 2 minutes after starting, but starting will not be affected.

From reading up about inline fuel filters and the results Puddles had by removing the inline filter, your theory that it wouldn't affect starting is incorrect. The large diameter inline filters don't completely fill up and in addition to restricting fuel flow can also cause vapour lock in the fuel line. Sediment bowls do completely fill up and have no air in them. The same thing will happen if a gas cap isn't venting properly. One of the other responses also said that removing the inline filter cured a hard starting tractor problem. The shop I went to also had a problem with a large inline filter and replaced it with a very small one to cure the hard starting problem. I will know in the next day or 2 if the filter is causing the problem. Dave

(quoted from post at 01:18:46 05/06/10) From reading up about inline fuel filters and the results Puddles had by removing the inline filter, your theory that it wouldn't affect starting is incorrect. The large diameter inline filters don't completely fill up and in addition to restricting fuel flow can also cause vapour lock in the fuel line. Sediment bowls do completely fill up and have no air in them. The same thing will happen if a gas cap isn't venting properly. One of the other responses also said that removing the inline filter cured a hard starting tractor problem. The shop I went to also had a problem with a large inline filter and replaced it with a very small one to cure the hard starting problem. I will know in the next day or 2 if the filter is causing the problem. Dave

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eople see things and draw the wrong conclusions very often. There is no need for a filter or even a fuel line to "completely fill up". A sewer drain never does, yet the crap flow down stream anyway. Vapor lock is seriously misunderstood. It is impossible in a gravity fed system. It only occurs on the suction side of a fuel pump. Just think about it...if air(vapor) were between the pressure point, be it a gravity induced pressure or a fuel pump induced pressure, as soon as the float opened the needle valve the air (vapor) would be expelled & fuel would flow until the float rose to shut off level. Whereas, on the suction side of a pump, if vapor is produced at a rate such that the pump can never suck liquid then no flow. So all those clothes pins on the line between the fuel pump and the carb were just witchcraft! You may even replace yours and "think" you fixed something. But in time, you too will learn.

I don't have a part number, but here are two sites where I found them. Late Great Chevy has them for $36.99. Bob's Chevelle Parts has them for $29.99 but are on back order!
You'll have to copy and paste these links, because I still haven't figured out how to post links on this site!

http://www.lategreatchevy.com/product.asp?pf_id=563418&dept_id=1268

http://www.bobschevelleparts.com/fuel-systems/

So please explain how Puddles and the guy with tractor started their machines right up after removing the inline filter but had to crank for a long time with the inline filter in place? Maybe it's air lock rather than vapour lock but your theory is only that, theory. Actually trying things out in the field is the only way sometimes to find out what works and what doesn't. I am certain that Puddles has tried all kinds of things to get his welder to start easier but what actually worked was removing the inline filter. I'm expecting I'll have the same results but will have to wait and see. Dave

Don't know if I should comment but from my misspent youth vapor lock usually meant that someone had taken a heat shield off (usually to replace a starter or such) and left the fuel line exposed to a hot manifold. The fuel pump which was normally in the engine compartment for carburated vehicles could not pump fuel vapor and the engine would stall.
As soon as things cooled down all was well.

Brad I'm amazed these things don't have the same problem! Look how close the fuel line has to be routed to the exhaust / intake manifold! My '74' has a nice asbestos cover over the fuel line, I would like to find a few more of those covers. I have plenty of asbestos welding blankets, but I would never ask my wife to sew up a cover for me! She has 3 or 4 sewing machines, one of these days I'm going to learn how to use one! :lol:

(quoted from post at 22:26:38 05/06/10) Don't know if I should comment but from my misspent youth vapor lock usually meant that someone had taken a heat shield off (usually to replace a starter or such) and left the fuel line exposed to a hot manifold. The fuel pump which was normally in the engine compartment for carburated vehicles could not pump fuel vapor and the engine would stall.
As soon as things cooled down all was well.

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"The fuel pump which was normally in the engine compartment for carburated vehicles could not pump fuel vapor and the engine would stall."
VERY GOOD, Brad, you have a good grasp of what "vapor lock" actually is...so many seem to never grasp the concept that it is by definition a phenomenon that occurs on the SUCTION side of the fuel pump, thus not applicable to gravity fed systems. Some just can't get it!