Could use a little hydraulic help!

I bought this grapple a few months ago, I'm in the process of lighten it up, (680#). Then going to fab some brackets so it will fit on my front end loader.


I used my plasma cutter to scarf the wear bars off the bottom of the grapple.





Drilled some 1 1/2-inch holes in the bottom, tomorrow I'll use the plasma to cut out the slots, then scarf off the skidster mounting brackets on the back, and build some brackets to fit my John Deere.



So the question is: What type of valve will I need to buy to work this grapple off my tractors power beyond kit?
Thanks for the help / suggestions!

Cool project!!! Looks like a find. Personally I woud probably cut-'er in half. Lotta iron to swing on the end of a loader.

I would think that any double acting spool valve with enough flow would work just fine.

Look in the manual or find out if you have open center or closed center hydraulics. I would guess open center on the size of your tractor. Then just get a spool valve rated for the GPM your pumps puts out. You could even use a 12 volt solenoid valve for the grapple(lots of skid steers do that). The hoe on my cat runs off of a power beyond adaptor on the loader valve. There is one line supplying fluid and another returning it. Another thing you could do, that wouldn't be as good, would be to put a selector valve on one of your loader spools that you could switch between 2 different functions.

Good thing you know how to make slotted holes and what you're doing.:wink: As much as a plasma torch costs, that's one job that's better suited to a plasma torch. I can just see the post from someone attempting to do what you are with a regular oxy/fuel torch and not having experience...

My bucket is warped and twisted all to sh-t from cutting it. How do I straighten it? LoL Dave

I talked to the local hydraulic shop about me bringing in the tractor, and letting them run all the hoses for me, but they only supply the hoses, and fittings, they do not sell valves. He did say buy an open center valve from Surplus Center, or Northern Tool. Northern Tool has quite a few valves for log splitters, ranging from $69.99 to $159.99. Do I need a valve with “Detent”?

Only reason I'm using the plasma, is because I have it. I really do like the way it scarfs welds out tho! Its kind of a cross between a carbon arc torch, and an oxygen acetylene torch. A lot cleaner than a carbon arc torch, no carbon deposits to have to stop and chip out of the way! I'll wait and see how this grapple reacts to the heat of the plasma after cutting all the slots, then I'll break out the oxygen & acetylene torch and take out that bow in the cutting edge. That grapple / bucket is so bent and warped I had to clamp a 1-inch plate to the bottom of the bucket so the Hougen would hold on! :lol:
Here is how my little backhoe attaches to the tractor.

You just need a standard 4 way valve for double acting cylinders with a spring return to neutral detent. Detent means the valve will stay in the position selected. For example if you had a hydraulic motor like on a post hole auger, you would put the lever in the forward detent position so you wouldn't have to hold it there. For something like your backhoe, you wouldn't want a detent position when you moved the lever to do work. You'd want it to stop and go to neutral when you let off on the lever. A log splitter valve is different. It detents to split the log and then automatically kicks out and retracts the cylinder to split the next log. This allows you pick up the next log and put it on the splitter safely. Hope I made sense. The hyd. place will know what you need.

I think if you alternate your cuts you shouldn't get too much warping. You could always leave a couple uncut spots(like tacks) on each slot until after all the other cutting is done to eliminate warping. I never used a plasma for gouging but have heard they are very good for lighter gouging. On heavy steel, I don't know if you can beat air arcing. I've also heard that O/A gouging tips work really well and are the best for some applications. Dave

I' am old school, I cut my teeth on a carbon arc torch. What I like about carbon arc over a plasma is the different size rods you can use. You can take out a 1/2 inch fillet weld with one pass with a 3/8 inch carbon rod if you have the power and air. Or you can use the flat flushing rods. Now what I like about a plasma for scarfing, you can long arc it, and get the same results as with an O/A scarfing tip. My plasma is 80-amps, I'd guess it does the same job as a 300-amp machine using a carbon arc torch with a couple hundred pounds of air behind it, pretty impressive really! Just not a very wide / big cut tho!

What do you think of this valve from Northern Tool?

Copy and paste this link.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200311693_200311693&issearch=20112

You need to be carefull with hydraulic on these things... No doubt the tractor has open/tandem center hydraulics. The trick is hooking these valves in series. You do understand that a power beyond type valve has an inlet, return to sump and power beyond port... the purpose of the power beyond being that it can supply flow to another valve. It's not as simple as daisy chaining valves from the return of one to the inlet of the next. Back pressure can do strange things to the first valves in the system when the last one is being used.
What I would do is look at your present loader valve. You'll have the 4 work ports for the loader plus an inlet/supply port. On the other side there will be the return. Look for another plug or line around the return. If there's a plug there, likely above the return, you're home free. Just remove the plug and install a hose to an open center valve. If you have a line there you need to follow that to the next valve and see if that's a power beyond type...
It's also possible that it may supply hitch oil back to the tractor...
Could type for hours on this subject. Best to see what you have for valves first. Take some pics, close up of the ports and post them if you're not sure.

Rod

The 20112 valve is a motor spool. Motor spools don't usually hold the load in neutral and free wheel to avoid a sudden stop of the motor. That valve also has detents for both work ports. You don't want that. I looked at all valves listed at Northern tool. The type you want is like a Prince 2010 or Brand 314366. However, you can get a smaller type valve similar to the one on the right side of your backhoe control(in your picture). I doubt your hydraulics have any anywhere close to 20 gpm so you could use a smaller size control valve for 15 gpm. I would guess you have more than 8 gpm. You need the same type of valve that's used for the loader bucket. It's the most common type of valve there is. Just go to a hyd. shop and tell them what you want to do. They will give you the proper valve. Most valves have an adjustable relief valve on them that will need to be set for your application. I'd guess 1500 psi would be enough for a grapple. Dave

You want to do the exact same thing as on your backhoe valve with the extra valve on the side. I assume it's for the controlling the thumb. That's the exact type of valve you need. Dave

Thanks for the help Dave! I bookmarked both of those valves, when I get closer to needing the hydraulics I'll print them out and take them to the hydraulic shop for their approval.

You're correct that valve on the right side is for the thumb. I bought that backhoe used, guy I bought it from got it in a package deal with a little import bull dozer. Said he never used it, which I could almost believe, very little paint missing in / on either of the buckets. I called the manufacture in Idaho, they knew all about my tractor, said it was 8 or 9 gallons a minute. Didn't take long until I was very disappointed in the design of this backhoe. It was built to self destruct! Note the 3/8 inch think cheek plates, (yellow arrow). It didn't take anytime at all until all the pin holes were wore out! And no grease fittings! I bought some 2 1/2 inch dia round stock cut pieces 1 inch long and drilled 1 inch holes in them for the cylinder pins, drilled and installed grease fittings. Latter discovered the dipper stick was way too short, so I added 12 inches to it! After correcting all the design errors, I don't ever use it! :roll: The last few projects I've done needing a backhoe were just to big for this little thing so I rent an excavator.

Motor spools generally don't float in neutral, they are 4 position valves that have an actual 'float' position... with or without detent.

You're sharper than me if you can say which valve he needs exactly in this situation, without knowing how it's plumbed right now. If for instance he had a true 'open' center valve that you refer to as a motor spool (where it has 'hold' in neutral), adding another valve downstream will cause action in the first open center valve due to back pressure and the fact that the work ports are open. Dangerous...

He NEEDS to know wether the present valves are 3 port power beyond type that supply further valves downstream or simply 2 port tandem center....

Life would be so simple if the tractor was closed center.

Rod

If your tractor is only 8 or 9 gpm, you could put one of the smaller size valves on. They also make the small size valves for 12 or 15 gpm but Northern tool doesn't list them. Another hyd. shop should have them though. Dave

He has the power beyond adaptor on the tractor already and just needs a valve so the hydraulic shop can plumb it. He could check with JD to verify what the hydraulic shop says. A lot of times a motor spool will free wheel in neutral so a motor can coast to a stop to prevent damage. Maybe it's an automatic float position? The valve for his backhoe thumb is is like a power beyond application. The hyd. shop and/or JD should be able to tell him if the loader valve can be set up for power beyond and if he needs a special type of valve. I guess it would help to know where the valve for the grapple is going to run from, the loader valve or the power beyond adaptor. Sorry Puddles, it would be a good idea to ask the hyd. shop/JD dealer what type of valve you need for the type of power beyond you have and where you want the valve pliumbed. It should be a very simple question for a hyd. shop. You do need a double acting spring return to neutral valve but may need one with an extra drain port. Dave

Power Beyond is a type of valve porting, not an adapter and depending on how he intends to plumb this valve and what it does downstream he may need one or two more PB valves.
It would be wise to consult with someone familiar with the plumbing on ~that~ particular tractor who also understands what he wants to do with it.
If it was CC it would be easy. Just remove a pipe plug in a manifold anywhere and grab some oil. Open center is much more complicated plumbing.

Rod

Got the brackets built today, and got the grapple mounted to see what its going to look like.
I'll go to the hydraulic shop tomorrow and let them pick out a valve so I can get it ordered. :wink:

Looks like it was factory made to fit on your tractor. A little paint and your done. Were you using CO2 shielding gas? The hydraulic shop should be able to pick the right valve depending on where it's going to be hooked to. Dave

I was using 75/25. If I really need some strength I switch to dual shield.

I still need to lighten this thing up some more! The back is either 5/16 or 3/8, (just guessing) think I'll cut some slots between the loader brackets, and maybe a big hole in the side plates, (1/2 inch). Also going to cut out the gussets in the grapple points, (1/2 inch).

Nice work that will be handy. Those quick attatch buckets are nice too.

Joe that quick pin system is as handy as a pocket on a shirt. I have a buddy that has a 32-hp Kubota tractor with a fixed bucket. I've been begging him for years to trade me tractors for a couple days and let me convert his front end loader to a quick pin system. He won't take me up on it! :?

Now if I wasn't so darn lazy I'd convert mine to hydraulic pins, then I wouldn't have to get off the tractor to change attachments. 8)

Here is a set of forks I built about 10-years ago, couple years ago I added pad eyes in the back so I can use it on the 3-point hitch.

Don't make sence that a guy wouldn't take that offer. Has he ever seen how easy it is to change accsesories?

There isn't much he doesn't know about tractors. He ran heavy equipment all his life, from digging pipe lines, to running 1000-ton derricks.
Maybe he doesn't think I'm up to the task! :wink:

It looks like you must have been burning it pretty hot. It's more work but maybe a bunch of small holes would better to lighten it? Less chance for stuff like branches to poke through. Dave

My thoughts were if it becomes an issue latter, I can always bolt / tack on some expanded metal. I have some light weight expanded metal that has maybe a 3/8 inch opening.

Looking at the majority of the root grapples on eBay, most of them are build with a huge percentage, or entirely of flatbar. I mostly need this grapple to handle limbs and small stumps, either to place in the burn pile or in the dump trailer headed for the local recycle center. For the large stumps I can handle with the forks, which weigh around 100-pounds.

I can't even remember the last time I burned a circle in something. I even go years without using my O/A torch! May have done a little better job if I would have taken the time to grind the rust off the inside.

Ordered the valve today from Northern Tool part number 20112.

I thought the 20112 valve detented(locked in position) when the function was selected? Easy enough to exchange if it doesn't work like you want.

For all the people who think a plasma torch is so great, they should take a look at those manual O/A cuts using a simple circle attachment! I bet if the rust would have been sanded off, you wouldn't have had any slag on the bottom. Even so, that slag would knock off easy by sliding a file against it. No need at all for a grinder. Dave

The guy at the hydraulic shop said any valve with open center will work, said this project is about as simple as it gets! He explained all the different valves to me and how they work, then left it up to me to choose. He said if I didn't want to use the detent then don't, but the option is there if needed.

I never really seen where a plasma was that much cleaner than O/A. Look at that slot behind / under the circle burn, there is slag on that cut as well. I did that cut with a Hypertherm 1250 plasma. Now on my CNC plasma table it cuts over a water tank, for some reason there is less slag, and definitely less smoke! I never was very good with an O/A torch, always in to big of a hurry! Over the years I've worked with a few guys who were just amazing with a torch. One guy I worked around for years he is the yard welding foreman for the construction company I worked for, he is the best I've ever seen. Once in awhile he would have to come out into the field to help us, he could keep 3 or 4 weldors busy by doing all the fitting. I think he could burn free hand better than I could burn with a tractor torch! He is very fast, only takes his time when cleaning the tip, as you say take a file with one swipe, ready to weld!

If probably won't detent unless the lever is pushed all the way. I think they can be removed on some valves as well.

For doing hand cutting on steel I'd take a cutting torch over a plasma any day unless it was under 1/8" thick. I was going to say that your cut could have been even better if you had played around with gas pressures, tip size, a little preheat and a little grinding. For what you were cutting, it wasn't worth playing around. I agree that cleaning the tip properly will make the biggest difference of all. I got pretty good at using a torch as a matter of necessity. I'd rather take a little time to do nice cuts than grind forever. I've seen guys that could cut really fast. On longer cuts, I sometimes forget to breath because I'm too focused on doing the best possible cut. Then I have to stop because I'm out of breath. My cuts are good though. LoL

I worked in a shop making components for mud tanks, steel buildings and other oilfield parts. The owner of shop was always yelling and screaming and would go through about 9 guys a week when the oil patch was busy. Some fired, some quit, some fired and hired back 10 minutes later because he needed them. He had ads for welders running all summer long! He was also pretty cheap. There was a box of cardboard templates for hinges, bridge valves and anything else that was common. Some tear drop hinges were 1/2" thick and I had to cut them from a length of flat bar. Once cut, I had to tack 3 of them together and grind them all exactly the same! Then I had to drill them. I never got yelled at once while I worked there. I did get sh-t once for being in the tool room checking the parts racks to see what needed to be made(my job)so I wouldn't get sh-t for any parts being empty if they needed them. The guy in the tool room had enough to do on his own and didn't know what the most popular parts were.

I worked there for 5 month's and like a lot of others, just couldn't stand the constant yelling and screaming over minor little things that were easily corrected, like putting more weld to hold down the grating on the top of a mud tank. Every 4 ft. wasn't enough, it had to be every 2 ft. The running gossip was that every welder in Edmonton had been through that shop at least once. That's not too far from fact. The owner sold out to a big energy company and is now a multi-millionaire. Strangely under new management, I've heard it's a good place to work.

I've never used a valve with detent before, I remember being involved with building derricks, and the crane operator would want certain valves with detent, an others without. I figured I'd order this one with it, if I don't like it I don't have to use it.


In my opinion the big problem with plasma torches is the tapered kerf. With sheet metal you'll never notice it. 3/8 inch and heavier its really noticeable. I cut all the bearing plates for my bridge crane out of 1 inch thick plate using my plasma, (just got it, had to see what it would do). :lol: To get a 90° angle on the piece I wanted, I had to throw quite a bit of angle to the torch to counter the tapered kerf, so what happens if you want both sides of the cut? You have to re-cut, using the torch angle trick. So where is the speed in having to do that? :?
Don't even think its me! The same thing happens on my CNC table, even when I set the torch 90° to the plate with a machinist square. My CNC table is really accurate until the plate heats up and things start moving. On the first cut if it's not to big the CNC plasma will cut within .007”! Plasmas are great for sheet metal, but heavier plate they're lacking. Now I've never been around a 3-phase unit, maybe they're better on thicker material.

The shop I worked at that did chromium carbide overlay and had an Esab/Linde PCM 150 plasma torch. It used a more complicated nozzle and also nitrogen with the compressed air. It cut like a lazer beam on large diameter overlayed pipe and left a nice straight cut but I think those units cost 8 to $10,000 and maybe more. Dave