Need some reasoning/logic

I help out a local museum that has progressively gotten more stringent over the years (as they are run by a local city). They now want us to put seat belts on all the antique tractors that the museum has.

So now the help. I need some reasons, other than funky looking, that seat belts are a bad idea. I figure if I don't nip it in the butt then we will have problems. These tractors are used 2 times a year for a parade, have been used this way for almost 15 years and not 1 incident.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Try removing the seats and drive them in the parade while standing! Everybody wants more rules, regs, and laws! Shouldn't mention the idea but soon seat belts will be required on saddles and bicycles. No reasoning = no logic!

talk about the most a$$ 0 nine thing ever heard of. what next rops, so when the tractor flips over in a 3mph parade. this is what happens when idiots start to run something.... my self would be saying bye-bye, tractor is on the way home, [if yours is in museum]. now what kinda of show will you have. geez, government, can screw up a free meal!.... tell them factor didn't install them, wasn't a option. lol

I would say leave them set in the museum. rather than add something that would affect the true vision of the real Antique ness ( For lack of better wording )

Some of these "Richard Craniums" that hold a seat on the board should have seat belts on their chairs.

Yep, first the seat belt then they will want a helmet. After that a Hans device. Seat belts can be deadly without a roll cage to protect you so you wouldn't want one without the other. I've rolled a roller. I'm around cause I was able to jump off as it rolled over in the ditch.

I am quite sure my current JD owners manual states that you should never use a seat belt without the ROPS in place. I think it states if you ever remove the ROPS, you must also remove the seat belts. If you are strapped to a tractor that is going to turn over, you have a higher risk of injury or death than if you are able to jump clear.

RND

I'd just tell them NO.

Some logic.
If I remember correctly automobiles are requried to follow the laws in affect at the time of their manufacture. Check, if I'm right that's your argument. Should be able to findit on the net.

Second--These are off-road vehicles! I haven't seen any seatbelts on even new ATVs.

The original standards were written in the 1970's: ASAE (American Society of Agricultural Engineers) S383 "Roll-Over Protective Structures for Wheeled Agricultural Tractors"; and ASAE S310.2 "Overhead Protection for Agricultural Tractors - Test Procedures and Performance Requirements". I think they have been superceded by SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) J2194-200904 or others. You can purchase copies of the old and current standards.

If the tractors were made before the 1971 requirements for "Roll-Over Protective Structure" (ROPS) they are likely grandfathered in and do not require a ROPS.

A seat belt should only to be used with a cerified ROPS! The seat belt is only there to keep the operator inside an ROPS that's strong enough to protect him from being crushed in a roll-over. Without a sturdy ROPS to protect the operator, a seat belt will only trap the operator from escaping as the vehicle rolls over and crushes the operator's station.

A ROPS must be "cerified" as strong enough to protect an operator from being crushed by a fully weighted vehicle in a roll-over. There are specifice test procedures for cerification. It's best to purchase a ROPS from a reputable manufacturer and avoid trying to build a "home-made" one.

Modern "convertible" cars have seat belts and they are now required to have a "roll bar" to protect the occupants in a roll over. Motorcycles, ATV's, (golf carts?) and snowmobiles don't have roll bars and they don't have seat belts either. Any motorcycle police officer will likely verify that it would be very dangerous to use a seat belt on a motorcycle. Are any of the city's motorcycles or ATV's being used in the same parades as the tractors?

The city is probably doing this to limit their liability in case of an accident. Is the city more concerned about passengers or operators falling from the tractors instead of rollovers? A seat belt without a ROPS only provides a false sense of safety. If there is a roll-over accident with and the city only provided a seat belt without an effective ROPS to back it up and actually protect the operator, the city could potentially be liable for higher damage claims.

Antique tractors have long been "obsolete" for use by commercial farming operations, so there is only limited demand for any new ROPS to fit antique tractors. A ROPS designed to fit your specifice tractors could be hard to find and could also be expensive. Especially if it has to be custom made to fit your tractor and then has to be tested and certified.

To limit your own personal liability, you should discuss this with your city's attorney before you install any seat belts on those tractors. I would only add the seat belts if the tractors already have a factory built ROPS and the original seat belts have been misplaced.

I'm an engineer, not a lawyer, these are my opinions. I'm curious what a lawyer's opinion is.

Good luck.

Typical idea coming from Braindead Gov't bureaucrats.Bigger question is why are you dealing with these idiots in the first place?

Have they priced seat belts ? They usually are VERY expensive. Most city's and governments are out of money,how are they going to afford it ?
I would think costs alone may shut them down !

EXCELLENT ANALYSIS, Im BOTH and Engineer (have rendered expert testimony) and a Lawyer and have a few thoughts.

You sort of nailed it right in your closing in that MOST LAWYERS ARE NOTTTTTTTTT ENGINEERS and while they may be trained in the law, they have NO CLUE about practical engineering and its application in the real world.

You and I (plus about any lay person) understand how being restrained inside a protective enclosure (a true ROP System) is safe and engineering sound, but some bright legal eagle (or some bureaucrat) who doesnt know beans about anything besides the law must not if they insist on a seat belt in a non ROPS tractor where a person has a better chance of avoiding harm if they are not restrained (and sticking out where a roll over crushes them). Im talking about old row crop tractors where the seat puts the operator up in about the worst possible position if hes tied in way up there.

TALK ABOUT LAW SUITS AND LIABILITY

You know if I was representing the widow of a guy who got killed when his tractor rolled over and he was crushed because he was restrained by a seat belt ID BE LOOKING FOR THE DUDE WHO MADE HIM WEAR IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TO SIMPLIFY YOUR EXCELLENT DESCRIPTION

Restraint GOOD if inside a ROP structure, Restraint BAD way up high and exposed when the tractor rolls over without any ROP cage to protect you from being crushed.

I was fortunate in that I didnt attend law school unitl I was over 40 and already had a "real life" prior to that as an engineer and farmer. I saw many bright students with no prior work or life experiences get thrust into the litigious dog eat dog lifestyle and I was sooooooo happy I didnt have to do that for a living whewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. Many had studied literature or political science etc and never had a job or many life experiences so it shouldnt be surprising they arent well versed in engineering concepts WELL DUH..........

Fun chat and you provided sound engineering reasons for the poster, but we all know logic and reasoning doesnt count for much up against a bureaucrat or egg head lol....

God Bless yall and keep safe. Im headed to the Norman Station Indiana Bluegrass Festival a few days to pick at my old banjo wooooooo hoooooooo "Goin up Cripple Creek goin in a run, goin up Cripple Creek gonna have a little fun"

Ol John T BSEE, JD "Country Lawyer"

What Cowman said,

Just tell 'em to shoove it.

Allan

Several of the posters provided good advice. My advice would be to explain and/or show the city/ museum board sws 55's well laid out post and suggest they get a written opinion from an engineer and an attorney. Then they can decide if they want to go the full route with ROPS and seat belts or no seat belts. If there is a problem, you would have documentation on why the decision was made either way.

We really need all lawyer to have John T's wisdom and common sense blended with knowledge of the law. The world would be a much better place.

(quoted from post at 02:56:32 05/19/11) I am quite sure my current JD owners manual states that you should never use a seat belt without the ROPS in place. I think it states if you ever remove the ROPS, you must also remove the seat belts. If you are strapped to a tractor that is going to turn over, you have a higher risk of injury or death than if you are able to jump clear.

RND

Click to expand...

Exactly. If you install seat belts, you are required to also install a roll-over-protection device (ROPS), and it will be next to impossible to find a ROPs that can be retro-fitted to an antique tractor and still meet the criteria and standards set forth by OSHA.

I got a new electric wheel chair and it came equipted with a seat belt.
gitrib

I agree with SWS.

The other thing to consider - what if someone were to fall off even with the seat belts? These tractors were never designed to have seatbelts and there is no good way to mount them. After you've cobbled them on to the tractor if someone is injured due to failure the lawsuit would be disasterous. They'll ask what engineer designed the seat belt mount, what test were done to insure they work properly and on and on.

Adding "home made" safety equipment only adds to their exposure.

Let me tell you a different but similar story: I work at a fortune 500 co., actually fortune 50. The largest in its field in the world. I'm a mechanic there. We have approx 300 forklifts, many with cabs with glass. After two incidents of operators not lifting the forks and hitting floor then windshield with head, Engineers, and "Safety experts" determined all forklifts should have seatbelts. Now, I'm well aware that most recent forklifts have belts and "hip restraints". So a hasty campaign was launched to put belts on every lift ASAP. These units range from the 1970's on up. The basic design of a forklift and its "overhead guard" is to protect the driver if his lifted load should drop on him. IT IS NOT A ROLL BAR. It is not a ROPS like a tractor. The real issue I had was the action of belting a driver to the "hood" of an electric forklift with 2,000-4,000lb battery under it. Modern lifts have a battery restraint, old ones don't. The point is, if you tip over the massive battery will slide up/over and crush the driver because he is belted to the hood with the battery under it. As the mechanic, I tried repeatedly to make this point but the Engineers and "Safety experts"(who were stock clerks, packagers, and general laborers before getting "promoted') would not hear it. Its their head if someone gets crushed and I kept all my documents. My long winded point is, safety retrofits have a place, but must be done in a way as to not create a different problem. Unfortunately, if your problem was at my employer they would simply ban the tractors forever! (everything must be idiot proof, doesn't it?)

Seat belts on an antique tractor are not SAFE. If the tractor rolls, where do you want to go? Hopefully, OFF THE TRACTOR. A seat belt won't let you do that. In conjunction with modern ROPS systems, seat belts work fine. But on old tractors it is best to leave them off. Plus, a museum should want specimens that are as close to original as possible. Seat belts will do absolutely nothing to increase the tractor's safety (but they could make tractors more dangerous), and they will harm the "antique" nature of the tractor.
SF

Bingo.

Note: The rationale, though sound, will not deter plaintiff's attorneys should an accident occur. As a result, the jurisdiction is simply trying to fend off one potential liability, perhaps upon opinion of counsel.

Dean, who is also both an engineer and attorney, and who attended law school after a 20+ year engineering career.

How can you effectivly restrain someone in a seat with out a back rest on it like most tractors up till the 60's?

I believe legally, anything designed for seat belts must have them, anything before the vehicle was required, doesn't not need them, and as mentioned below, mght become a safety liability. If the city is doing this for political correctness, tell them to show written proof, from the state or insurance writer. Im certain it doesn't exist. A currator and director is all that should be involved with management of any museum, too many cooks spoil the broth... even volunteers that don't like the agenda, should think about volunteering elsewhere. That is how ol tourist traps and private museums get their start...

Because they own the land and the buildings (and provide a space, at least for now to work in). And I helped build it to where it is now over the last 15 years and don't want to see it sent to the old crapper.