I am back again and hope you guys can help me once more my amp gauge was reading 20 amps and with every ones help I am down to his.. I finally got the VR and I am ready to install but I have one other question My battery is connected positive to positive and neg to neg. but on the VR is says positive ground. The tractor has been rewired and I don't know what to do should I change the battery to positive ground ??? I do not want to damage the VR if I leave it the way it is will the VR be ok? before the VR was grounded and I guess not used, do I have to rewire it starting all over to be sure. what I am trying to say is how do I know how the battery should be hooked up positive ground or neg ground.Is there and easy way to tell without rewiring...hope you understand what I am trying to say.... with old VR in now it starts and runs but I did not let it run long because I'm not sure what will happen....can anyone help Bob
- Thread starter BOB2014
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Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
It would help to know the make and model you're working on...and the year, in some cases, if known.
This might make sense to those who remember your previous posts, but by itself we have no idea what you are dealing with.
What tractor?
6 or 12 volt?
Was it switched from a 6 to a 12 volt?
I assume VR stands for voltage regulator, but I have made wrong assumptions before?
You say the battery is connected positive to positive, negative to negative. How do you mean that? The battery is positive and negative, the rest of the tractor is neither until you hook up the battery, so I'm not quite following that comment? I mean, I can assume you did something the way I would, but you might be doing something totally different and mean this differently, it is unclear.
Mind you, I am a dummy with electrical stuff, so you are talking to the village idiot here.
Paul
What tractor?
6 or 12 volt?
Was it switched from a 6 to a 12 volt?
I assume VR stands for voltage regulator, but I have made wrong assumptions before?
You say the battery is connected positive to positive, negative to negative. How do you mean that? The battery is positive and negative, the rest of the tractor is neither until you hook up the battery, so I'm not quite following that comment? I mean, I can assume you did something the way I would, but you might be doing something totally different and mean this differently, it is unclear.
Mind you, I am a dummy with electrical stuff, so you are talking to the village idiot here.
Paul
What are you working on? Generally speaking, if it has an alternator, it's wired NEGATIVE ground. If it's got a generator, most were originally positive ground although in reality it doesn't matter which way you run them provided that the gen/regulator is correctly polarized. As far as the battery connections go... do you have two 12 V batteries or 2 six volt? Is it a 6 v system or a 12v system. How they're connected depends on what you have... but the battery doesn't care. It can be connected many different ways depending on the system design.
Rod
Rod
sorry guys I am working on a 1956 farmall cub it is still 6 volt system and the VR does mean voltage regulator when the battery is connected they had positive to positive and neg to neg....I change the coil points and condenser, plugs and wires...the VR was ground and it showed 20 amps on the gauge I took the ground wire off and ran the tractor or a short while and now it show no amps or negative 1 I have a new VR and back to my original question... hope this helps
sorry I am working on a 1956 farmall cub it is still 6 volt system and the VR does mean voltage regulator when the battery is connected they had positive to positive and neg to neg....I change the coil points and condenser, plugs and wires...the VR was ground and it showed 20 amps on the gauge I took the ground wire off and ran the tractor or a short while and now it show no amps or negative 1 I have a new VR and back to my original question... hope this helps
Dick H in NY
Member
6 volt Farmall's were positive ground from the factory
A mid 1950s International would have come from the factory with a 6 volt battery with the positive post of the battery hooked to the ground strap, and the negative post hooked to the cable going off towards the starter.
It will work the other way, but your generator needs to be 'excited' in the proper direction. If you hook it up different ways, your generator might forget which way it goes and do nothing.
I would suggest hooking it up with the positive battery post going to ground as it came from the factory, and if the generator doesn't put out anything, you need to polarize it, or excite it the right way.
(Your generator keeps a tiny bit of magnetism in it which says which way the electricity flows - when you hook it up backwards this messes up that bit of magnetism and you need to reflow it... That is what the polarity or excite means....)
Paul
It will work the other way, but your generator needs to be 'excited' in the proper direction. If you hook it up different ways, your generator might forget which way it goes and do nothing.
I would suggest hooking it up with the positive battery post going to ground as it came from the factory, and if the generator doesn't put out anything, you need to polarize it, or excite it the right way.
(Your generator keeps a tiny bit of magnetism in it which says which way the electricity flows - when you hook it up backwards this messes up that bit of magnetism and you need to reflow it... That is what the polarity or excite means....)
Paul
gene bender
Well-known Member
If the reg says pos gnd then go to pos gnd. Did you get the reg for the gen you now have as they arent all the same. You need to get the Delce # from the gen to make sure you have the correct reg again the reg are not all the same you do need the correct match. There are too many with problems that do not have the correct match. Make sure all componets have a ground to the chassis. You didnt say what tractor you are working with.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
As a '56 Cub was a 6V system, it was a positive ground system. Positive cable connects from battery to a chassis ground, and negative cable runs to the starter.
If your battery is fully charged, the ammeter WILL read 0 or fairly close to 0. The only time the ammeter should be showing a charge is when the electrical system needs a charge. When the lights are turned on, the ammeter will momentarily go to the discharge side, but if the generator and regulator are doing their job, the system should begin showing a charge again, until a full charge is reached.
If your battery is fully charged, the ammeter WILL read 0 or fairly close to 0. The only time the ammeter should be showing a charge is when the electrical system needs a charge. When the lights are turned on, the ammeter will momentarily go to the discharge side, but if the generator and regulator are doing their job, the system should begin showing a charge again, until a full charge is reached.
Best advice, send email to Jim Nicholson, let Jim advise you of each step to take. You have received lot's of information from your first question. You have a pretty good chance of ruining your voltage regulator. Too much information from many people might do your electrical system harm. Take your time. All people sending you information meant well, it get's a little confusing. Cheers, Murray
gene bender
Well-known Member
Where did you get the reg. Some places sell one size fits all and they usually dont work. Reading the rest of your post your gen does take a reg as the early Cubs did have a cut-out but could have a reg made for that gen. But your C ub came with pos gnd. The reg has a ground strap from the reg to the base.
Yes, you can have it either way. It doesn't matter to the generator or the regulator. Alternators ARE sensitive to polarity because of how they are constructed, but gens are not. If you do change from pos ground to neg ground you will need to switch the primary wires on the coil from one side to the other.
If you have two 6v batteries in this system you also need to make sure they're in parallel meaning that the negative terminals are daisy chained together and the positive terminals are chained together.
Rod
If you have two 6v batteries in this system you also need to make sure they're in parallel meaning that the negative terminals are daisy chained together and the positive terminals are chained together.
Rod
right now the tractor is negative ground that is the way I got it. I changed the coil and hook it up the same as it was. now I have a new voltage reg. can I just leave everything the way it is and install the new voltage reg. and polarize it. the old voltage reg. was grounded with an extra wire on it, I removed the wire ... should it be ok if I just add the new one and polarize it??
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
Wheres the ground on the battery in your cell phone? How about your flash light? How about your portable radio or TV?
Answer is there isn't one. It's all about the battery and what and how things are connected to it. You can put the reference where you want as long as you abide by the polarization rule of + to the + battery terminal and - to the -.
You can take that battery loop and attach any point of it to your tractor chassis, your truck chassis, your Gator or what have you. The one you choose to attach to your chassis is what it's referred to.
Ground is a term used in electrical power systems and means that the "battery" is referenced to the earth, hence the ground that you walk on even though the "battery" oscillates at a 60 cycle per second (Hz) rate in the US above and below this "ground" reference.
Mark
Answer is there isn't one. It's all about the battery and what and how things are connected to it. You can put the reference where you want as long as you abide by the polarization rule of + to the + battery terminal and - to the -.
You can take that battery loop and attach any point of it to your tractor chassis, your truck chassis, your Gator or what have you. The one you choose to attach to your chassis is what it's referred to.
Ground is a term used in electrical power systems and means that the "battery" is referenced to the earth, hence the ground that you walk on even though the "battery" oscillates at a 60 cycle per second (Hz) rate in the US above and below this "ground" reference.
Mark
You said your new voltage regulator indicates used with positive ground. Therefore you attach the positive terminal of the battery to the frame of the tractor. Before you start the engine, polarize the generator by momentarily touch a jumper wire from the battery terminal of regulator to the generator terminal of regulator. (some regulators are marked armature instead of generator).
The reason you polarize is so when generator start charging and the cut out relay in the regulator closes, you have a positive charge on one set of points and negative on the other point. If the points close with like polarity, the points will severely arc, probably damaging them or maybe even sticking them together.
Few regulators now days are marked for one polarity so I am going to assume you have a better quality regulator as the ones that are marked should have different metals on each point to minimize arcing and electrical wear so to speak on the points.
A good regulated 6 volt system with good full charge battery should regulate right close to 7.2 volts. If you have working lights, turn them on before starting engine and if ammeter reads discharge as it should the ammeter is hooked correctly. If reads charge you will need to reverse the wires on ammeter.
The reason you polarize is so when generator start charging and the cut out relay in the regulator closes, you have a positive charge on one set of points and negative on the other point. If the points close with like polarity, the points will severely arc, probably damaging them or maybe even sticking them together.
Few regulators now days are marked for one polarity so I am going to assume you have a better quality regulator as the ones that are marked should have different metals on each point to minimize arcing and electrical wear so to speak on the points.
A good regulated 6 volt system with good full charge battery should regulate right close to 7.2 volts. If you have working lights, turn them on before starting engine and if ammeter reads discharge as it should the ammeter is hooked correctly. If reads charge you will need to reverse the wires on ammeter.
Janicholson
Well-known Member
With much respect. I take issue with the second paragraph. When the cutout closes on any properly setup system, the points are of like polarity and the voltage on the contact attached to the generator arm terminal is higher than the voltage on the battery connected contact. This remains true at all times.
If the generator slows to the point that the Arm contact is lower in voltage than the battery contact, the current in the windings push the contacts apart to avoid discharge. THe reverse flow is not different polarity, it is still much higher than ground. Usually reverse flow of 2 to 3 amps is sufficient to break the contact. Jim
If the generator slows to the point that the Arm contact is lower in voltage than the battery contact, the current in the windings push the contacts apart to avoid discharge. THe reverse flow is not different polarity, it is still much higher than ground. Usually reverse flow of 2 to 3 amps is sufficient to break the contact. Jim
Owen Aaland
Well-known Member
The difference in polarity charge between the points is what you may get if you don't polarize the generator first.
As far as I know it will be fine unless someone can specifically tell you otherwise...
You do need to make sure you have the correct regulator for the application. There's two different circuit types for the generators and you need the right one. Which one you need for that tractor is more than I can tell you.
Rod
You do need to make sure you have the correct regulator for the application. There's two different circuit types for the generators and you need the right one. Which one you need for that tractor is more than I can tell you.
Rod
teddy52food
Well-known Member
Jim; it is actually the spring that opens the points. The reverse flow just cancels the flow in the voltage coil. The armature on the points will be attracted by flow in either direction. Magnets always attract unless it is 2 magnets, then like poles repell.
With "much respec", you are closer than Pete, but still no cigar. "the current in the windings push the contacts apart to avoid discharge." No "pushing apart" , as either direction of current flow or either polarity of shunt coil will pull armature closed. What really happens when gen voltage falls below battery voltage & reverse current flows, is that when current reaches a level that its magnetic field is equal & opposite of the shunt coil field, the two equal & opposite fields cancel & the armature/points are opened by spring.
Janicholson
Well-known Member
I was inadequate in my description. Both you and Teddy are correct. The closing and latching force is reduced due to lower observed voltage in the coil, allowing the spring to open the points. Jim
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
Draw 2 vertical lines straight down the page.
Hook the battery across the top + on left, - on right or - on left and + on right, doesn't matter.
Strap all your battery operated things across the two lines paying attention to + when required....coil.....and whatever else. The starter housing needs a wire for this illustration to complete that circuit.....obviously it will be the frame of the tractor when you get down to that.
Lights and all don't matter.
Now you have an entity, just like your cell phone. Fully intact, fully functional. If everything runs off the ignition switch being on, put an ignition switch on either line just below the battery. If you have a push button for the starter, it can be shown above the ignition switch with one of the actual starter solenoid high current leads going straight to the battery line above any switch, the other straight to the starter terminal. If you have the Ford tranny safety switch then it goes between the starter solenoid power (small terminal) and the - line; other side to starter switch which goes to the + line.
Now, you can tie either of those two wires to the tractor frame. If you tie the + it's called positive ground, - is negative. Simple as that.
The tractor frame acts as one of the two wires depending upon which way you are wired. So, if you are positive ground, replace the positive wire with the tractor frame; neg gnd the - wire.
Mark
Hook the battery across the top + on left, - on right or - on left and + on right, doesn't matter.
Strap all your battery operated things across the two lines paying attention to + when required....coil.....and whatever else. The starter housing needs a wire for this illustration to complete that circuit.....obviously it will be the frame of the tractor when you get down to that.
Lights and all don't matter.
Now you have an entity, just like your cell phone. Fully intact, fully functional. If everything runs off the ignition switch being on, put an ignition switch on either line just below the battery. If you have a push button for the starter, it can be shown above the ignition switch with one of the actual starter solenoid high current leads going straight to the battery line above any switch, the other straight to the starter terminal. If you have the Ford tranny safety switch then it goes between the starter solenoid power (small terminal) and the - line; other side to starter switch which goes to the + line.
Now, you can tie either of those two wires to the tractor frame. If you tie the + it's called positive ground, - is negative. Simple as that.
The tractor frame acts as one of the two wires depending upon which way you are wired. So, if you are positive ground, replace the positive wire with the tractor frame; neg gnd the - wire.
Mark
Janicholson
Well-known Member
In magnets yes, in voltage not quite. jim
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