This should create a lot of BUZZ

I got a call at 6 am yesterday form a tenant. No heat, no hot water. Both are on 220v. As I suspected, one leg wasn't working. I was lucky, got a union electrician there by noon. I told the electrician I had an old QO load center and described the main breaker. Well homeline has twice redesigned the main. The electrician had seen this before, so he bought out a 100 amp 220v breaker, some extra wire, special connections to splice with and got power up in no time.

While I was waiting for him, I moved a few wires around to get lights and refrig working. With the right leg down, I turned off all the breakers it powered up. Even turned off all 220v breakers to eliminate back feeding.

Just when you think you know all there is to know about electricity, electricity will prove you wrong. The top 110v 20 amp breaker on the right is connected to the bad leg. I turned the breaker off more than once, because my amprobe showed 0.8 amps going throught the wire. Only way I could stop the current flow was to pull the breaker from the panel.

Another 220v breaker, on the bad leg on the bad leg only, was showing 1.2 amp when the breaker was turned off. That breaker went to the range.

The bad leg, 0 volts, all breakers turned off was showing 2.4 amps.

The union electrician just blew it off, Said the problem was the digital amprobe.

24 hours later, all it fine. When tenant moves out, I'll take a second look at load center.

If anyone has a good 100 amp main to a QO load center, I'll leave my email open and be glad to buy it off you. I was told that breaker hasn't been made for about 15 years.

So, Let the buzzing begin about your theory why current was flowing with breaker off. No current when breaker was removed from load center.

George

You mean the theory of Harbor -Freight?

It may be like a distributor cap. a carbon trail to ground, or to another post. Your breaker may have the same problem with a carbon path to the load side. Causing a reading. Stan

I thought of that, but the current is also going through L2, the bad side. L2 is the main wire on right coming from the meter. Remove breakers from panel, no current in L2. There is current back feeding through a breaker that is turned off.

I never have trusted that style of clamp on ammeter. Likely you are just reading inductance from surrounding wiring that was still flowing current ? My outdated main breaker failed a couple years ago, I bought one off a local electrician who had it in a bucket with a bunch of other old ones. He dug through there and found it, blew the dust off and said 150 bucks. I wasnt too happy , but I paid it anyway.

Take an Ohm reading on the breaker when it is out of the circuit. If it is more than a few hundredths of an ohm "ON" and still has something like an ohm when "OFF" It is the animal. If not, it was as described, induction from the other circuits.
When designing mold cavities for Triplett, I worked with their engineering dept. They were adament about keeping the design thin enough that the separation of the wires from each other was easy. A 2 to 3 inch clearance around the lead being evaluated is desirable. Jim

Those clamp on ammeters are usually dead on. I'm guessing your breakers have some leakage current even when off.

I think I have one of those main breakers out in the shop in a bucket but its 200 amp. I have a bucket of breakers too but wouldn't trust them as the 50 or 60 amp one in that panel feeding an electric furnace caught fire from poor push on connection to the bus bar. The whole panel was pulled out and replaced.

If there's anything worse than working with Murphy's Law, it's working with electricity! Built a house in early seventies, and they put a 220v receptacle under a window in the family room for an A/C unit. Never used it, so when I bought a refurbished air compressor from Sears, I used that breaker and ran an outlet to the carport. Plugged in the compressor and it tripped the breaker. Took compressor back to Sears and got another, same thing! It would run about thirty seconds to a minute and trip the breaker. Talking to the guys at work and someone suggested might be the breaker. Went home and pulled breaker, sure enough, had oil on it where it had leaked out. Replaced breaker, no more problem.

Its a back feed through one 220 circuit from the good side, then back to the bad side and then to a different appliance that has a 120 leg in a 220 circuit... like a 110volt clock on a 220 volt oven.

I agree with the electrician, something is tricking the amprobe. I can't believe all the breakers are leaking through.

Now that the main breaker has been replaced, a true test would be to turn off the suspect circuit breakers one at a time and check for voltage to neutral. If it reads full line voltage, like 115-120, the breaker is bad or you've lost a neutral circuit.

Disconnect the wire from the suspect breaker and check again. If the wire remains hot, you have a bad neutral connection to that circuit. If the load terminal of the circuit breaker remains hot, you have a bad breaker.

I hate to be a bearer of bad news, but you haven't heard the last of this... From the looks of the burned connection on the bad main, the buss bar has also been burned. Now would be the time to plan on replacing/updating the panel when you are between tenants.

Steve,
I removed the 110v breaker from box and current stopped, so how is the meter getting tricked. I also have an old analog meter. Same results. I used digital to photograph.

Keep in mind. All 110v breakers were turned off from bad leg L2. All 220v circuits were turned off at the breaker too.

One 220v breaker also showed current current on bad leg.

This is crazy. Current going through 2 breaker in the off position. Current going through L2 which shows ZERO VOLTS with a digital VOM.

If someone else had posted this I would have thought they don't know what they are talking about. I definately don't know what is happening.

I will get to the bottom of this once rental is vacant. I'll look deeper.
George

Just a note to you guys. A lot of time you can find hard to get breakers on ebay. I have NOS 15,20,30 amp Wadsworth breakers.

Yes, this is really strange... I don't think I've ever seen a breaker weld closed or leak in the off position. I guess anything is possible, but imagine the liability that would be for the manufacturer!

Keep us informed what you find.
Thanks!

My guess is that panel got wet at some time. The breaker looks rusty to me; if it looks bad on the outside it and the others probably aren't any better on the inside. If the breaker is a rusty mess inside, it's not going to work right. You can confirm that the breaker is bad with an ohmmeter.

At this point, I think the best thing to do is to replace the entire panel.

Mark,
Electrician said the same thing, got wet. Look at the 100a main. The buss bars look good, rust free. The panel is on an outside wall. No insulation behind it. Gets very cold in Indiana. If you notice the third pic the top of the panel shows rust.

I'll keep a close eye on it. I'm thinking it may be condensation, not a water leak because there is no rust on bottom of panel. If it were rain, the back and bottom would show rust.

Many years ago, I wired up a outside panel. Specs called for a thermostat and a heater be installed to keep moisture out.

I'm trying to think what I could use inside the small panel to dry it out. There is very little space.

Any ideas of a small thermostat and say 10w heater?
George

Well, maybe you could use a Goldenrod heater; these are used for gun safes.

Personally I am dubious that condensation is the problem, but I suppose it's possible if the box is in an area subject to rapid temperature swings.
Goldenrod dehumidifiers

Mark,
Thanks, I think a 12 inch 12 watt model may be what I need. I'll wire in thermostat, may use an adjustable thermostat from a water heater. Keep temps as low as thermostat goes. It says temps may get to 150. The trick will be to find a place to keep this away from wires.
Thanks again. I will look in to getting one. I found some on eaby.

I'm 99% sure condensation is the issue. The load center is in corner of the kitchen and the back side of panel is on an outside wall.

I'll post results of what I find, perhaps when tenant moves. This will I'll make sure nothing is plugged in.
George

I have the breaker you are looking for. It is used but I'am sure it is good. 785 539 8613