Way OT... but I need to vent

My parents have been gone for several years now.
My siblings and I still maintain their house.

Our grandfather built it, and it's a great meeting
place for our large family.

Between all of us, keeping the old house doesn't
really break the bank since we split all the costs
so many ways.

But here's my rant:

We had somebody come in to give us a quote on
completely redoing one of the rooms on the house
(it's a typical new england cape style - wide with
lots of "attachments").

The room has large (maybe 5'x5') windows that are
a little dated, we'd like something to replace
them.

The contractor claims we can't get a permit to do
the work because the windows are too large.
And/or we couldn't get windows that size because
nobody makes them due to the new regulations...

Apparently there's some new regulation here in
Massachusetts that any new work has to meet
certain energy efficiency standards - and that
much window space per the square footage of the
room doesn't meet the standard...

I don't know all the details about this regulation
- but I'm afraid my head's going to pop if I try
to look into it. It sounds like the bottom line
is, if we want to redo the room it has to be with
smaller windows...

Has anybody else dealt with this?

Not really looking for ways around it - I'm just
depressed that the size of my windows has some how
become the business of my government.

I don't believe that there is any rule like this in NY. Come on over and truck the windows back. I recently put in some double hung, triple mulled window that were approx. 54" high by over 100" wide. No problem here! At least that I am aware of.

Can he install a stationary middle sash with 2 flankers or a double or triple unit? Are they going by R and U values of new windows as there would also be an advantage of solar gain in the winter if located in a southern orientation.

A way out is if you can find some historical preservation clause, sometimes preservation of old junk outweighs the oppression of new remodel rules? Can make a difference if the building is unoccupied too?

I sure understand your vent, its a bugger and worse every year. I used to like This Old House but it got to a point where they really couldn't renovate anything with all that stuff on the East Coast.

Now that stuff is moving out across the country to all of us.

Paul

Does the house or its neighborhood have some sort of special historic designation with tax breaks? If not, I'd take the first contractor's quote and claims with a grain of salt and get quotes from several other contractors. If there is still confusion, talk to the city office that will issues building permits. The should have all their requirements available in writing and online.

Sooo...are they outlawing greenhouses and sun rooms also? Find your windows in another state if necessary and either put them in yourself or have a friend who is a contractor do it on the QT. Or find a way to repair/reinsulate the ones you have. I haven't had a barn on the farm since I bought it because the local township says I have to live there to have one. Lo and behold I was reading our state farming laws and it turns out the township does not have jurisdiction. Somehow I have to tell them that without pi***ng them off so bad they jump on me about something else...weekly.

Just saying, do your homework.

It is Mess a Chew Sets? Meaning the politicians will try to eat you? Now that the puns are done-- talk to contractor and ask for specific statute, maybe a historical exception, grandfathering clause is in next paragraph. New "energy use" rules possible, lots of hassles from government in recent years. Contractors have licenses to worry about, homeowners doing things themselves can sometimes get away with doing something offcode-especially if it was "pre-existing". A outer frame with a Lexan panel or panels cut to size may be what you can end up with over old windows- will be a airgap to act as insulation and Lexan panels are tough, don"t break like glass, can be fitted in a decorative grid that is steel bars X or U pattern cross section that will acts as burglar retardant- some of those "windows" seen at various homes and stores in the Detroit area. Light transmission is less than clear glass- about 90%- but the weatherproofing and security concerns may balance and it is available in large sheets or cut to measure. RN.

I'm still unclear on exactly what the problem is, my brother's been the one handling it.

It's got something to do with some "new regulation" that has to do with the total window area vs. sq footage - and it has to meet some level of energy efficiency... that's about all I know.

Again - I'm not really interested in finding a way around it at this point, I'll leave that to my brother - I'm sure he can.

I was hoping somebody here might be able to shed a little more light on the regulation. I don't really know enough about it to complain about it yet.


It's just really bugging me right now that it's even a QUESTION. Why does anybody get to stick their nose into how efficient I'm being with the energy I buy????

I can't buy it and waste it if I want to?

Do your homework, don't just take the contractors word. After building several houses in the last few years I found that many contractors are not an "authourity" and give you adice based on what they know and the suppliers they are comfortable using. Most get in a rut doing things one way and want to keep at it because they don't want to take a chance and try something different.

I bet you can find someone to rebuild the old window......if you look. But it is not as easy as rip out and put in a new window from LOWE's.

Further, do not let some hack destroy the classic lines of a historic house, if you can avoid it. Window size and shape are an integral part of good architure.

What he's really telling you is that he doesn't want the job.

Find another contractor.

Allan

I would go to lumber yard and get a 5' picture window, then go hire a contractor or yourself to put it in.
Info

Dave H, went through the same thing in my township in Michigan. Wanted to put up a barn to store my tractors and stuff before I built on it. Twp said "no". Later found out that an "agricultural building" is exempt from local ordinances. Didn't want to go to the mat with them otherwise they'd be picking at every little thing I did.

Also can't have running water or toilets in an "accessory building" like a pole barn, but a guy in the twp put up a huge barn on his farming acreage, right next to the twp hall as a matter of fact, and when I walked through after the slab was poured there were drains in the floor that looked suspiciously well located to be a toilet and shower.

After lawyers and used car salesmen contractors have one of the highest reputations for lying to customers. I would find out if there is any truth to this matter before you get too upset. I have never hired a contractor but I have met some people who I would not trust to tell me which way is up.
Zach

I tried googling it - here's something I found -

makes my head spin that "efficiency" is ANY concern to ANYBODY.

How can you possibly regulate efficiency????

Wouldn't it be better to just put a cap on how much energy a person can use, period? Isn't that the end goal? Is that next? I don't get why it wouldn't be. And I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen (with exclusions for government official's residences of course).


____________________________________________________________

Residential
New residential buildings 3-stories or less are required to meet an energy performance standard using the Home Energy Rating System (HERS). The HERS index rates each home on a scale where 0 is a zero-net-energy home, and 100 is a typical new home built in 2006. The HERS index has been in use for many years in programs such as: Energy Star homes, LEED homes, and by the Federal IRS to qualify homes for tax credits and energy efficient mortgages.

HERS ratings are performed by a „HERS rater‟, an independent certified building energy professional, working with the home builder.

HERS ratings are submitted to the local building code official in draft form at plan review and final form on building completion.

Stretch code exceptions:
The stretch or base energy code is not triggered in the following situations: Storm windows added to existing windows Window repairs to an existing sash and frame Reroofing or residing over uninsulated roofs or walls where the sheathing is not exposed.

Requirements: New homes 3,000 ft2 or larger: HERS index of 65 or less less than 3,000 ft2: HERS index of 70 or less
In multi-unit buildings, the unit size determines the HERS score needed.

In addition: Mandatory requirements of the base energy code (IECC 2009) Builders and HERS raters must complete the Energy Star Homes Thermal checklist.
Requirements: Existing home renovations and additions
Home additions and renovations have two options to meet the stretch code:
Option 1) Performance path: whole house - HERS rating option Existing homes 2,000 ft2 or larger: HERS index of 80 or less Existing homes less than 2,000 ft2: HERS index of 85 or less Home additions less than 3,000 ft2: HERS index of 70 or less Home additions 3,000 ft2 or larger: HERS index of 65 or less
In addition:
2
Mandatory requirements of the base energy code (IECC 2009) Builders and HERS raters must complete the relevant portions of the Energy Star Homes Thermal checklist.

Option 2) Prescriptive path: partial house option (HERS rater not required) Any portions of a building modified by renovation must be brought up to code, or insulated to fill open wall/ceiling/floor cavities whichever is less. Any new windows, doors or skylights must meet Energy Star 5.0 standards. Any new ducted heating or cooling systems outside the insulated space must be tested and meet a maximum of 4% leakage to outside. Builders must complete the relevant portions of the Energy Star Homes Thermal checklist.
Commercial

I would talk to another contractor, this is very unusual on a retrofit.

Must be an issue with how the contractor is interpreting the code.
If it was the way you said he explained it and you had a single pane picture window you would not be allowed to put in a sealed unit because, well then you might save energy.

The specification that states there is too much window space proportionate to the square footage of the room, is about as stupid as it sounds, how many old houses exist in Mass. with large windows of the past ?

What I would want to know (and I recognize you are more frustrated by the above) what R value or what value of the exterior wall, is established with new construction. Get that on the table, then detail the rough opening and take that to a manufacturer, see what existing window models may perform or equal that rating, I would think its out there. Then it would be a matter of having custom windows/glazing built, subsequently properly installed to achieve a uniform rating.

I could not buy this for a minute without knowing the above, I worked extensively in the metal and glass industry, know commercial window assemblies inside out, usually the window performs, but its the installation that presents problems, ie; the rough opening. On the residential end, there has to be a thermally broken window, with glazing that will perform at that size, I can't see the insulated glass being too thick to create a larger air space, and increasing the window assembly to not fit into a residential rough opening, losses always occur around the rough opening, air and water infiltration, I have performed the tests in mock up laboratories, on commercial windows, know the routine. There is a lot to obtaining ratings or certifications by reference standards, A.A.M.A and you may search the link to find more information about this.

To heck with the contractor, Allan is right, they just don't want to deal with it, not too many are well versed in solving problems like this. I've heard this can't be done or that can't be done, 14 years ago, an old bow window, on the weather side of the house was deteriorated on the bottom, the sill, the bottom operating sash, needed to be re-glazed etc., contractor said it needs to be replaced this and that, can't be done ( meaning we don't want to do it)

I set up scaffolding, I removed what was rotten, I made the bottom sill myself on the sawhorses, CCA pressure treated wood, I made new bottom rails for the 2 operating sash, I called a buddy in the glass business, gave him the daylight opening (D.L.O.) of all the little windows comprising the overall unit, ordered the new insulated glass, re-glazed it, made new glazing stops, installed with new glazing compound, painted etc. it was less than a new unit installed, only mistake I made was not ordering Low E on on of the surfaces of the insulated glass, there are surfaces # 1, 2, 3, 4.

The window performs well to this day, much better than before, no real noticeable thermal loss, no need to replace and IT COULD BE DONE !!!! the repair that is. With the winter sun and all the glazing on the south side, it keeps the house very warm during the day, no matter how cold, as long as the sun is out.

I can't imagine being told what you were here, change all the window sizes, that sure is a bunch of trash !!!!
A.A.M.A.

I think Allen is right. He doesn't want the job, or doesn't know what he is doing.

My thoughts are the contractor dos not want the work ether too busy or see's not enough money in it. So he hides behind a rule probably for new constructions. Where I live window can be same size or smaller than existing windows no permit needed but larger or new windows need permit.
Ypop

We've got just the opposite problem here (N TX). Certain "Historical" areas of town are protected, everything has to go back like it was as in viewed from the street. You can improve the efficiency, but it has to match a before and after photo.

I could see it if it were a nice, old, well preserved part of town, but some of these areas are really bad, rental propertys...

I would suspect there would be an historical exception, especially if the house is over 50 years old.

I"m a retired Code official. Just go ask the Code official, and ask to see the relevant Code. He is obligated to show you, in fact the jurisdiction is obligated to have copies on hand, in the Library, and in City hall for anybody to read through, as long as they want to. It is YOUR government, not theirs.
Last thing to bearin mind, is they have to tell you and show you the Code. If they"re good guys, they can explain to you the reasons. But BUT they are not there to argue about it.

Last year I went to my local Menards to buy a replacement flush toilet. I wanted to replace my old "standard" toilet with another "standard" toilet, and not the water-saving ones I heard about. They just don't flush right and are the source of problems for anyone who uses them.

Imagine my surprise when I was told that you could not buy ANY toilet that used more than X gallons water. And that it is a FEDERAL LAW.

Think about it---a law was passed regulating how toilets flush. And on the Federal level. That someone has determined there can be "illegal" flush toilets.

That means that there were congressional hearings (can there be a Senate Sub-committee on Toilet Flushing?) They probably called to Washington "experts" on toilet flushing to testify. There were government and taxpayer funded studies implemented with the purpose of determining how much water a toilet needs to flush.

Why does anybody get to stick their nose into how efficient I'm being with the energy I buy????

I can't buy it and waste it if I want to?

Click to expand...

Sure you can, but when EVERYONE does that, it drives the cost of energy higher.

What is the first thing you and everyone else does any time the utility companies announce a rate hike? COMPLAIN TO THE GOVERNMENT!

Then you get regulations like what you are facing.

JR call your bldg Insp you dont have tell hml who you are just ask the question can replace a 5x5 or whatever size window in an exsisting home. Most Likely not an issue, I called a friend who does that kind of work and asked him and he has never had issue replacing a large window. New construction different story especially in br areas.

Chuck

Buy a TOTO

YOU BET!!! I have two in my house and recommend them to everyone!! fantastic..never thought I could be so excited about a toilet..

Windows can easily be made now days in any size and shape, and with any number of panes, UV block, tint, nitrogen filled, you name it.

As for the permits, screw em. Find someone who will work underground.

Our county voted down county wide zoning last week by a big margin.

We dont need permits or permission to do anything. Anyone try telling me I couldn't do something on my own property would next be examinining my AR-15 with me.

Gene

if he knows what he is doing he will replace the old with new double pane glass and his heat bill will be less. i know because i replaced 2last summer heat and cooling bill is less now. don't always believe the bureaucrats know best because they dont

Changing out an old window is not a problem - it's adding an addition, or in our case - basically just completely removing and rebuilding a room a little larger.

That's what we'd need the permit for - and any new construction/remodeling like that needs to meet current codes - which apparently involves meeting certain energy efficiency standards now.

I guess we've had them for a while with certain specs for insulation and so forth -but still - just seems tougher and tougher to do anything around here.

br = bedroom community?
Thanks.

Why in the world would any sane human willingly live is a place with such regulations? If they tried to do that in Kansas I'll bet I wouldn't be the only armed man in the streets.

I agree with Allan: your contractor wants an excuse to not do the job, and the gubmint is always a convenient scapegoat. Move on and get a bid from another contractor.

I'm a contractor , sure wish I was closer.I use a lot of vinyl windows and see no problem with the 5x5 size. Use two double hungs mulled together, works great. Have filled a lot bigger holes than that.

Well, if there is anything that the government knows about,it's the stuff that you flush down the toilet!

Feel your pain. We have a house built in 1840 with single hung 12 pane (6 each half) where some of the panes are 'running' and are single glazing. We want to upgrade to more energy saving type that fit without much changing of the looks. After 5 yrs looking and talking to various places either way outa price range or not willing make what we want. My demand is they "must" appear as what is already there.
Ignore the fact there is zero insulation in the walls ~cry~

JR:

Why not just install "Winter" or "Storm Panels" on the inside of your windows. I have several large windows & all of my windows have Aluminum framed Polycarbonate panels on the insides. They don't impair the view through the windows, & they create a thermal barrier (dead air space) between the panels and the glass. Mine are held in place with little turn-tabs, so that I can remove them anytime I want too.


Doc :>)

Why? Because the taxes are so stinkin' high you can't save up enough money to leave, for one reason. Because you are too dawg gone old to leave and start over. Because most of your family is here. NY is just as bad or worse. Most of the NE is as bad or worse for that matter.
Comes under the catagory of: "If I new when I graduated what I know now"............

Since the house is in the Northeast, Why not contact the crew of "This Old House" and see what they have to say?

Gene I feel the same way - unfortunately in Massachusetts, the people would rather have the government build their houses.

I TRIED going about REPLACING (not installing from scratch) my electric water heater the "right way" with a permit. But found I simply wasn't allowed to do it.

It HAD to be done by a licensed plumber AND a licensed electrician.

There were no ifs ands or buts about it - it's simply not allowed in this town.

I of course did it myself anyways - but if my house ever burns down and the fire started with the water heater - I doubt I'd get a dime from the insurance company.

I'm all for RECOMMENDING it be done by a pro - I'm even all for USING a pro in most cases. But not ALLOWING people to do their own work is over the line. They should be able to inspect a job like that and sign off on it REGARDLESS of who actually did the work.

br = bedroom

JR i guess i misunderstood the term redoing the room, if it's like a whole addition, then here in MA you probably screwed.I all about the money, used to be $25 for bldg permit now i think its based on value of the work. In fact I think in our town
when permits were first called for there was not a charge or maybe 5 o 10 bucks. Now it can be ridiculous.

Sounds like great advice untill once actually tries
it. Spoken like someone who has no building
regulations. Good luck getting bank to loan on
your house.

This is a state or local ordinance you are referring to ...right?

I thought I heard on talk radio, that the federal govt was the out of touch enemy and if we just let the local elected officials make our laws, and operate the enforcement process, all our problems would be solved?

Here in KY, our close to the people , locally elected government, is more broke than the feds....as hard as that is to believe. OOOOps..they just forgot to fund the retirement program they agreed to... but only forgot for the last 30 years.