???ready to upgrade to discbine???

haymaker1980 · Oct 13, 2014

I started in 2009 with a john deere 1209, it has given great service...replacing guards and sickle when needed...had to put tires on it this year..I was planning on unloading it this spring and making the jump to a disc conditioner. Another local hay guy that has a 1209 is having gear box/wobblebox problems ...knew I had mine and made me an offer I could not refuse...so mine is gone now...and I am trying to sort thru the wealth of information out there to see what is going to fit my operation best. Why is there not a general rule of thumb...if you cut this many acres then your operation should have this size/type mower. I know everybody is different and it boils down to personal preference...and what you want to spend...but how do big operations decide to buy a self propelled machine vs. a large center pivot mower?? for me that question is 9' or 10' I am a part time hay guy full time town job guy with flexible work schedule. I do about 65 acres...4x5 rounds/small squares. I have decided on a new holland machine...but am struggling between taking the plunge and buying a new 7220...or searching the world over for that diamond in the rough used 9' discbine...like a 1409. I am way more comfortable with the 10k price tag on a used machine...but with the 20k price tag on a new machine...you get a warranty & no surprises...HELP!!

Pair-a-dice farm · Oct 13, 2014

It's all about personal preference and priorities. On 65 acres it's doubtful that it will pencil out any way you go. I go over about 400 acres a year and can't justify a disc conditioner. I use a disc mower and tedder but depending on the kind of hay that may or may not be practical. As with a disc mower the cutter bar on a used unit is probably the biggest thing to look at. I would want to hook it to a tractor and hear it run before I bought one.

Roger in Iowa · Oct 13, 2014

How much horsepower do you have to run the disk machine? You need 8 to 10 horsepower per foot!

haymaker1980 · Oct 13, 2014

yes I am aware of the evils that can come along with a used disc mower...I would not buy one unless I could run it myself or see it run in the field. for my operation I do enough alfalfa has to be a roll conditioner...that's not an option.

retired farmer · Oct 13, 2014

The boss bought a new Challenger small square baler this spring for an undisclosed amount. Would have been better off if I had rebuilt the old Case baler. For only sixty five acres I wouldn't even think about a new machine.

jon f mn · Oct 13, 2014

I have some relatives that cut a lot of alfalfa for themselves and do custom cutting on several hundred acres a year and they have gone away from discbines. They say it takes longer for the alfalfa to recover from cutting with a discbine because they bust up the stems more. Don't do any hay myself so I have no personal experience.

RC Brooks · Oct 13, 2014

I'm sure you're familiar with the adage of 1hp per acre. Folllowing that, it'd preclude you from the realm of discbines. Personally I'd stay with a haybine or move to a disc or drum mower and a tedder.

I agree that 65 acres probably isn't worth the investment unless you think you'll add on a good 50 or more acres in the next few years.

I know a lot like discbines for the speed. In our fields, you're pretty well limited to 5 or 6mph with rolling hills, bumps and such. For us the cost just doesn't pencil out. For us, this is supplementary (and needed) income, so we've got to make a profit. If you are working this just for feeding livestock or the like, then as long as your math is still in the black I don't see a problem with it. Also remember that discbines load a tractor down more than a haybine, so your fuel costs will go up as well.

Josh in Pa · Oct 13, 2014

I would take the plunge on a used one. New Holland cutterbars are easy to work on and segmented, so they are not too expensive if you have problems. Look for one that's been taken care of and I bet it will last you a long time. 1411 might be easier to find than 1409.
Josh

RodinNS · Oct 13, 2014

I don't see that you have the acreage to make a 10k used one pay never mind a new one... but that's up to you. Personally... I think a used one would have to be in damn good shape and come from a known good home where maintenance was done on it before I'd drop 10k on it. My inclination is much more towards the scrap row and rebuild it so I know what I have vs paying big money for someone else's junk.
What I can tell you is that a 10' discbine will lay your entire crop flat in a day IF you have smooth fields with no rock. If you don't then you can spend a lot of money on blades, discs and shoes and hubs...
If that's the case then sometimes a lighter mounted straight disc mower is a better option as it bounces over a lot of that crap easier without so much damage.
As far as Haybines go... no way would I own one. Not for anything. The idea that they save fuel is the plainly false. You can get by with a smaller tractor at slower speeds but at the end of the day you'll still have burned more fuel and spent more time than a discbine...

Rod

Vernon in Ks · Oct 13, 2014

The only advantage your going to get with a Disc cutter, with your operation, is you can cut when it's too tough to cut with a sickle! My operation was similar to yours except I do 500 acres. I tried the disc mower and went back to a haybine. A GOOD 14 ft haybine can run 10 acres an hour in 2 ton to the acre hay on straight fields.

INCase · Oct 13, 2014

another thing to watch for on a disc-bine is that some (depends on speeds, cutter bar speed and tractor speed) can blow down alfalfa and then runs over it and it will spring back up and will be more mature than the rest of the field.

haymaker1980 · Oct 13, 2014

Yes I am very aware of the horsepower requirements of a discbine. I sell all my hay...no animals on this farm. I currently have a 970 case & 180 massey ferguson for tractors inthe shed. A 640 new holland round baler & masssey ferguson #12 square baler pulling an ez-trail bale basket a old massey harris bar rake and a new 2 years ago kuhn 10 wheel speed rake. I made approx. 330 round bales and just shy of 1500 squares this summer..I know I turned down 3 new custom baling customers this summer..because right now my time constraint is cutting takes so long. I solved my raking taking so long 2 years ago with the kuhn wheel rake...I was so nervous about spending $$ on a brand new rake...after using it...have not regretted it not once...it has paid for itself over and over again...I am no longer raking...when I should be baling...

haymaker1980 · Oct 13, 2014

yes I have been looking at 1411's as well...they are a 10'-1' cut correct...and more plentiful

haymaker1980 · Oct 13, 2014

My answer to your relatives...is they are scalping the crop and not keeping good sharp knives in their cutters...everyone around me that runs discbines...runs them in my opinion to close to the ground. I talk with several of them to ask why....their answer...because they can...if you don't you are leaving tonnage in the field...but yet they can't understand why I am getting 6-7 years out of a stand of alfalfa and they are getting 3-4 years. Maybe the difference is the haybine vs. discbine...but I tend to believe you can cut it taller with a discbine and sharp knives and get same longevity results...

haymaker1980 · Oct 13, 2014

I read a forum the other day..guy bought a new holland discbine...brand new out of the box...and was having horrible problems with it streaking like you are refering to...got into a big scuffle with the dealer..they said he had inferior stand of alfalfa...went on for weeks...the dealer could not make the machine cut in anybodies fields...so they finally took it back. Really scared me...kind of why I put this question out there...to see what others thought about my dilemna.

Bill VA · Oct 13, 2014

New vs old vs payback.

It depends. How long will the disc mower last, are you one that trades ever few years or keeps an implement 20+ years? Day job and part time hay? How much down time can you withstand? I'm amazed at some of the prices for hay equipment and the tractors that are needed to go along with them. We have come a long way from a MF135 and a New Holland 68. There MUST be $$$$'s in farming, else everyone in my neck of the woods has great credit or trust fund. With some of the folks, the quality of their equipment is inversely proportional to the quality of their hay and yield - LOL!

On one hand, I like the idea of making do with old stuff - sort of like a game of survival. Won another round, made x-number of bales with the old equipment. OTOH - hay is down and so is the equipment again and no way I can take a day off from the real paying day job tomorrow.

Probably in my fleet of micky mouse stuff, we are going to upgrade over the next few years, looking long term towards good/reliable equipment. New is on the table in all of this. I can easily see my boys using the equipment long after I'm retired/gone. Probably a stupid reason to buy new or near new - but if I can hand-off good equipment to them, OK by me. The way I see it - hay income for us is the gift that keeps on giving year in, year out.

Good luck!
Bill

RC Brooks · Oct 13, 2014

(quoted from post at 17:15:51 10/13/14) I read a forum the other day..guy bought a new holland discbine...brand new out of the box...and was having horrible problems with it streaking like you are refering to...got into a big scuffle with the dealer..they said he had inferior stand of alfalfa...went on for weeks...the dealer could not make the machine cut in anybodies fields...so they finally took it back. Really scared me...kind of why I put this question out there...to see what others thought about my dilemna.

How flat are your fields? I know people with discbines that can run 10-12 miles an hour. We can't run that fast in our fields with nothing behind us. If you can't run 10-12 miles an hour, then the discbine won't add anything to your operation.

And it certainly takes more fuel to run a discbine per square foot with the same tractor. The governor supplies more fuel for a heavier load on the pto. The advantage comes in speed... if you have ground to make that speed. I personally think haybines leave a better cut than discbines but not so much of a difference that I'd be up in arms. I just look at the cost and benefits. I think the biggest advantage is the speed at which you can cut, but as it's moot for us due to the hills, we haven't worried about it.

haymaker1980 · Oct 13, 2014

Thank you...I think you are the first to I will say see where I am coming from or really get my situation. Yes I have prided myself on getting it done with the oldest rustiest equipment on the block, but at some point you have to take the plunge and upgrade if you are going to grow your business. I am not one to trade in equipment, thus the reason to look at a new cutter. I made an absolute rust bucket 1209 last for 6 years. So I look at it...buy a new or near new one..it should be around for 20-25 years...with the low acreage I do..that is the thought I had with the rake I bought. It should be around when my 8 year old son takes over the operation

RodinNS · Oct 13, 2014

The problem you got is that at 65 acres you aren't even on the edge of paying the interest on new gear for what you're doing. If you expect the gear to pay it's way you either need to about quintuple what you're doing or severely cut the cost of the gear.. or keep a day job to pay for it.
There's lots of us work with old gear and know all about the hardship of it...
New gear is nice too, but it depreciates a lot quicker than you might think, regardless of how much it does.

Rod

haymaker1980 · Oct 13, 2014

I am in central illinois, all my personal fields are flat and square....2 of my customers fields are irregular and hilly...but yes...the advantages I am looking for in the discbine are cutting faster...not 10-12 mph...
no plugging
and larger window of cutting time..ie cutting at night. On the 970 case with the 1209 moco I could cut in 2nd gear range 2 if conditions were absolutely perfect...nice tall stand I could make 3rd range in 2nd gear....I am thinking with disc cutter we will easily be in 3rd gear 2nd & 3rd range(this is the gear and range I ussually rake in)....that will be a nice productive speed...but cutting safely and not abusing the equipment and my backside over every bump and rough spot in the field

donjr · Oct 13, 2014

You use a discbine for a while, you'll NEVER go back to a sickle machine. I just bought my second discbine- my last one was 22 years old, and was getting tired. But the maintenance is far less and the overall cost and aggreivation with the sicklebar and the speed of the discbine far outweighs going back. The biggest problem I see with a discbine is that the dealers set them too low and they scalp the crop. Keep the head in adjustment and they do a great job- 2-3" off the ground.

haymaker1980 · Oct 13, 2014

Now did you own it all of those 22 years? If so ...for my own case I can totally see buying one brand new if it is going to last me 20 + years. I figure I will have it paid off in 5 years with a modest down payment and less than $300 a month payment. The other factor that I think most are missing here is I work a full time job, if the hay business has to I will say break even for a few years I enjoy the tax write offs and getting my money back that the feds took out of my town job pay check.

ih_bug · Oct 13, 2014

if your set on buying new forget about the discbine and just get yourself a reese Drum Mower. all the benefits of the discbine without the costs. you can buy new for the price your looking at used. make sure you get the rock guard.no gearboxes to break . buy a box of extra knives and if your paranoid extra belts and your good for years.
you already have the rake to double up your swaths and the massey 180 will run it . I have one and do a whole lot more than 65 acres.

Northvale - PA · Oct 13, 2014

I only do 20 acres per year, 3x, but bought a used disc bine 3 years ago. A NI 5209, grey model, so a little older. It is lighter than a NH. My tractor is a JD 4020 and I don't want to put a hurting on a 45 year old machine. The disc bine cost about $6k to buy and fix, needed a new disc module, knives, several bearings, etc. Otherwise, machine frame and rolls were very good. I looked hard at auctions and used for 2 years. It was the best value I came up with. I am in same situation, full time job, long drive, cut in the evening and gets dark and wet before done. I get on, start mowing and almost never look back. My advice is get a good used one. You will be very glad you did.

2underage · Oct 13, 2014

Hay Maker if you have been using that JD haybine and doing OK then you do not need a discbine. First, the JD 1209 is one of the worst haybines made and was never very popular. I would suggest that you look at a good used New Holland haybine. Of course the good ones are not cheap but they can cut fast and clean and last a long time.
Break the cutter bar on any discbine and you are looking at a minimum of $6500 to replace. Just saying...

Zach Scherf · Oct 13, 2014

Don't let anyone discourage you. I farm about 100 acres is hay and bought a case ih 3209 9 ft discbine a few years ago. It has allowed me to stay a one man operation. I can mow so much faster it has been trouble free as well. Get a discbine and don't look back just look at it and see if its been beat. If not go ahead. Tractorhouse is where I'd look

Josh in Pa · Oct 13, 2014

There are more advantages to a discbine than speed. You will never plug up, I farm part time and have mowed hay at night or in the rain and still cut clean. Triangles or points are not a problem because you can mow over what you've already cut without plugging. If it gets dull you can replace all the blades in 20 minutes for $20. There are horror stories about cheap old discbines bought at sales, but you won't have those problems. Cutterbars have come a long way and NH is one of the best. 10k will buy a nice 1411 if you shop a little bit. And even if you have trouble with the cutterbar, which is doubtful it will not cost much to repair. They are segmented and each unit is individual. If you can justify the cost, which I think you can if you are selling good hay, a discbine will work really well for you.
Josh

RayP(MI) · Oct 13, 2014

I'll second ih_bug. I have a MINOSagri 190 DRUM mower, (same as CCM 190.) Has revolutionized my haying. Do about 60 acres, run it handily with a MF 180. Even impressed a neighbor who runs a 14' disk when I finished a field for him when he twisted off a $1000 CV joint on his PTO shaft. $10 buys a set of blades. 15 minute blade change. Belts should last a long time. Beats sickle in every way.

donjr · Oct 13, 2014

Bought it new when I was still working. Even so, if I were to buy the one I did this spring, the payments would be less than $500 a month for five years. But over it's expected 20+ year life, it's less than $100 a month. That's two bales of hay.....

Sidney Lovelace · Oct 13, 2014

We have a 3309 Case-IH disc bine that cuts about 200 acres a year. Runs like a champ and easy to work on. Cutter units are independent driven by a hex shaft. Not expensive to rebuild a unit. No problems. Pull it with a 1030 Case.

showcrop · Oct 13, 2014

(reply to post at 06:47:32 10/13/14) [/quot

I was in your position about ten years ago. Running my own separate business that I needed to pay attention to, yet my hay business had grown, and was taking too much time. I upgraded from my 990 International MOCO to a NH 411 discbine. I did a lot of mowing in the evening, and could knock down what I needed to in 3-4 hours. Next day I would get the crew started off then go tedd it out, and I had the rest of the day for business. Second day sometimes the wife would tedd again. Here in NH it usually takes three days to dry with the moisture in the ground. Third day I would take most of the day off to rake and bale.

formenwhogrow · Oct 14, 2014

You will search and search, but I would be willing to bet that you will never find a diamond in the rough when it comes to discbines. Guys use em till they're junk most of the time. If a guy keeps it blown off clean and inside, the machine will often look great still, however there is no way of knowing just how much wear is in the gearboxes, or if the machine has been greased/maintained properly. Too many variables on a discbine. Besides, most 1409s are around 12-15 years old, good luck finding one that isn't worn out. Take the plunge. New Holland is offering great financing right now.

Brown Swiss · Oct 14, 2014

I would go with the discbine, I run a haybine 499 on too many acres. For me the only reason I am looking to get a disc type is I can cut at night without the worry of it being plugged. The hills I am on you can not possibly go fast and keep it under control 5 to 6 mph at best.

Brown Swiss · Oct 14, 2014

Sorry didn't answer question! Depends on your mechanical abilities, You can buy new or find one that needs work and over the winter rebuild it. Price is in question on that one, Or get a good used one which may be tough. As far as lasting, ??. My neighbor bought a brand new NH 1411 and it blew up starting out the second year he had it. He takes great care of his equipment, doesn't cut with it in the field like a raped ape and is shedded all the time. Just one of those things I guess. He did get another new one after that and this one is going good for him yet, I think maybe five or six years old.

Super Steve · Oct 14, 2014

i went from a 9 foot sickle, to a 12 foot discbine, to a 14 foot hydraswing sickle.

Heres my thoughts,

The discbine was nice but took hp to run it at its full potential which meant the tractor I use on the round baler also needed to run the discbine so I was constantly switching back and forth.

The discbine was still a side pull machine so I was still going round and round in the field, I timed myself on a field with it then when I went to the 14 footer, I did it in the same amount of time.

Parts for the sickle are a lot cheaper as well as the buying price. Im much happier with the hydraswing than I was with the discbine.

???ready to upgrade to discbine???

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