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Are we really better off????

J

JD Seller

Well-known Member
I just watched a linked video over on tails. Nice Hot rod taking off. Driving out of town are the town square. What really caught my eye was the empty building windows. It is not just that town either. All across the country the main streets of most towns, large and small, are disserted. You have to go to the edge of towns to where the SUPER Walmarts are and other strip malls to find many business. I can remember being able to buy EVERYTHING you needed for daily life right in my town. You might have to go to Dubuque for a dress suit but everything else you could buy right here. Also 95% of the time it was a business that was owned by the same person that was waiting on you or 100% locally owned. Now it is almost all chains that some Corporation own ten states a way.

YEs I can BUY Chinese JUNK cheaper but you have a hard time finding quality good anymore. An example: I needed a good 30 amp 12 volt toggle switch. I wanted and US made one as the Chinese ones would not last more than a few weeks. I was not able to find a US made switch. I found US companies selling switches but they where imported as well.

The everyday things we need to live are too many times 100% imported now. So where are the young folks today going to work in the future???? Government mandated minimum wage jobs?????

I was able to start working for PAY at 14 years old in a feed mill. I bagged feed every evening form 3 PM top 9 PM and all day Sat. That income allowed me to help my family out. Then later get married and provide for myself an my bride. Now you can not hardly hire anyone under 18 for any type of job around machinery. Direct farm labor is the one place and that is getting more regulated.

It really saddens me. There is a much less vibrant community because of these social changes.

PS: My wife is visiting her Mother. There is not a grocery store within 30 miles. This is not in the middle of now where either. There are four towns that all used to have stores until the last few years. These are all towns with populations of over 1000. So she need some milk and eggs for cooking. Had to buy it at the gas station ore drive forty miles. Her home town had TWO stores until 2000 and the last one closed last year. The "NEW" four lane highway was finished ten years ago. So the locals all have flocked to the Walmart/Aldies stores fifty miles away. So the local store was slowly choked out so they can same ten cents on a can of corn/ gallon of milk. So there went some more local jobs and business owners.
 
Today Federal Dept of Labor would shut that feed mill down if they had a 14 year old working there.


Problem is the mom and pops sell tha same Chinese made imports as Wal-Mart - only at double the rates. A couple of my sisters worked at a few mom and pops in our home town. The owners lived in the biggest houses and drove Cadillacs and Lincolns. The school basketball and football teams had to buy new shoes every year - guess who supplied the school the shoes at prices few of us country kids could afford? I remember both sisters having to babysit and clean house on weekends for free for them to keep there jobs - that's just how it was. When Wal-Mart was going to build local they fought to keep it out, then they built one 40 miles away. Didn't hurt my feelings one bit when they closed their doors.
 
I bought a set of trailer tires this week and was surprised and pleased to see "Made in USA" written on the sidewalls.
 
My wife worked for a local company for years until Walmart came to town. Business closed, she now works for a temp agency doing minimum wage clerical work when it is available.
 
I bought my wife a Raleigh bicycle 42 years ago, she never rode it much but we kept it. Seemed to develop a slow leak somehow (the bike tire I'm talking about) and I took the tire off to check it out just last week. Firestone brand, made in Canada, hard to believe. Something along the same lines, I challenge anyone to shop anywhere and find something made in Japan (other than some cars and heavy equipment) ..... do they make anything there anymore that you'd buy at a local Home Depot, Walmart, Lowes, etc? I've often wondered what they do make in Japan these days. Japanese brands of course but not made in that country.
 
Our Newer and larger government has made it impossible to hire young people to do "apprentice" work, like in the old days,,back then young people had the opportunity to work, make a little money and learn a trade from older people that wanted to share and pass down their knowledge.. now days we can't afford to hire young people mainly because of all the rules and regulations,,so the young people set around doing nothing till out of school,, then the common theme is to send them to college,,get a degree,,and of course borrow a $100,000 to do it...college turns into a party zone,, the loan is in place a degree for what ever that is worth is handed down,,, and no work for them, and of course they have no work habits (because the laws would not let them work),,and of course the loans with interest is still eating away at their future.. When the Clinton saga was going strong they made some major deals with China, arranged for laws to kill industry in the States,,and sent us all down a path to cheap products and no jobs...
 
Growing up in the 1960's I loved to go the local hardware store that had been there for decades and see the same people who worked there year after year. Bought garden seeds, nails by the pound in paper bags. But by the 80's small towns where getting the life sucked out of them by the pull of the big cities. It is sad to see them in shambles now and vacant. There is no awareness in America to preserve the way of life that we worked for, and fought and died for. No dedication to where you came from. Not cool for young people to stay in the small town they grew up in. They want the illusion of wealth they see though the eyes of the internet and entertainment media. They want a new Mercedes and a new house and cannot see beyond that.
 
Im divided on this. I'm not old enough to remember life without Walmart. I've just heard too many stories about how well off the local store owners were, and how they knew they had you over the barrel. The expansion of the local economy is overall a very good thing for the consumer. If the consumer was willing to pay 10% more for American made goods, we wouldn't even have a problem. Most of the time I see 1st world made goods, the price difference is very minimal.
 
I don't think its an even trade off, from the era when things were like you said, I remember all the small business's and such, malls, department stores, were not common, but we had Sears, Montgomery Wards and K-Mart, spread out. I remember the local grocery stores in old buildings, and that you had to go to a bunch of different places for things. Those were all good places, supply houses were well stocked, they'd have what you need, worst was an off hours crisis when you needed something, so in some ways we benefit, but its not even by any means.

I've seen a farm field turn into a grocery store, adjacent to what was one of 13 farms on the road beyond it(this town did not have a grocery store then). Saw that store eventually close, another built nearby, leaving the older one abandoned, though it was used by the Salvation Army for a brief time, it was abandoned for years, then converted into a car dealership. Walmart was built in another adjacent farm field, the entire farm demolished, silos on the horizon gone. Saw our 2 lane state road connected to the highway miles away, progress.... traffic reminds me of Long Island, on a weekend, steady stream both ways, hard to get out on the road, you might wait 10 minutes.

The whole era of foreign manufacture, being prevalent, is definitely not something I would think is better by any means. Its hard to grasp all of what took place and what transpired taking us to the current times. They've muddied the waters quite a bit.

We now have quite the diverse ethnicity locally, go to the walmarts down the road, and you'll encounter people from many foreign areas around the world, we've gone from rural to suburbia in a sense, though this towns population density is not like surrounding areas, they are starting to spend money on much higher cost developing, seeing they have saturated all the easier areas.
 
Ah for the old days . Here where i live back forty years ago ya did NOT have to DRIVE any feather then to town for what ever you needed . We HAD three hardware stores , we had Sears , we had J C Penney's and two other dept store , two five and dimes mens clothing stores , woman's clothing , shoe stores sporting goods two lumber company's and one with full mill works two cement company's two Ag dealers in town feed mill and a large industrial base , three good parts stores and two with machine shops . good eating places lots of watering holes and LOST of job,s . There was a Ford dealership a Cheve dealership, Merc, Chry Ply,Buick, GMC pontiac Dodge . And gas stations everywhere that PUMPED your gas , changed your oil sold tires fixed what ever was wrong with your car . Back then when you went looking for a USED CAR if it was four years old it might have 45000 miles on it NOT 145000. Yea maybe we only made five to ten bucks and hour but guess what we had more money in our pockets and things where made in the USA and we did not have to run the wheels off our cars and trucks trying to find something that is junk before you buy it.
 
This post really hits home with me. I was born and raised on a row crop farm and loved everything about it. Would have loved to stay on the farm, but in the late 80's there just wasn't enough land or money to support my dad and his brothers who all farmed together. I worked the winter months while in high school for a jewelry store doing jewelry repair as I had experience with metal work repairing equipment on the farm. There is a huge difference between welding 1/2 steel to tiny jewelry, but the principle is the same, so I have a knack for it.
Fast forward almost 30 years and I have owned my own business in a dying downtown area for over 20 years. I still get the chance to go to the farm and help the younger cousins that still operate our family's farm.
There are many vacant buildings in our downtown area, but a thriving wal-mart super center. The comment about the local store owners driving nice cars or having a big house may be true, (although not in my case!!!), but would you rather have a well to do business owner from your home town that is involved in youth activities, church, etc. or send your money out of state to the home office of the giant stores so the owners can have another multi-million dollar beach home?
I am glad to be a small business man. I still love to go and help the cousins every chance I get. Most of all I love to tinker with my old tractors!!
So, I better get back to work. I have to get some repairs done so I will have the money to pay our local auto electric guy that is working on my Case tractor generator!!
 
I hear you. I don't believe we are better off. But it is an ongoing phenomenon. We have more choices being close to the Milwaukee metro area, but try to support local businesses.

Retail is a difficult world... in 2010, we launched a cheese line made just from the milk from our cows. We are currently in about 40 retail locations... and that is a cutthroat world. Managers come and go, and are under a lot of stress. It's hard to build a relationship with someone only to have them replaced.

Anybody remember when Walmart's theme was "MAde in America"? It was, back in the day!

If there is to be meaningful change though, I guess it begins with us.
 
We are a nation of cheapskates. Many will drive for miles to save a few pennies. Most will pass by the higher priced quality product to buy the cheaper one that is made in China. Then they complain about the quality and expect to get the same usefulness out of the cheaper product. Sooner or later, it comes home to roost.
 
You have been bitten by the devil from Bentonville. At leat arouind every Wall Mart is a whole bunch of fast food choices. If you like to eat that stuff.
 
I'm not entirely sure what your point is, but many small towns died out with the death of the 160 acre farms and high on-farm employment. The small 160 acre farms will not return. Unless small towns can bring in some other industries with high numbers of good paying jobs, there isn't much to keep young people in a small rural town except maybe family ties and a willingness to accept a much lower standard of living.

We can complain about WalMart and Amazon pushing out their smaller competitors, but their purchasing and distribution systems are so much more efficient than the mom and pop stores they replaced. A few days ago you posted a video of a large ensilage operation. We marveled that it is head and shoulders above most other operations in size and efficiency. Those large farming operations are also pushing out their smaller competitors. Is that good or bad, or is it just the future?

In cities you can order groceries online and have them delivered to your door. In ten years that service will be probably be available in most rural areas too.

Just a comment on minors working long hours on school days. I do have to ask how much homework you were able to get done on a school night after working in the feed mill? Many of my high school class mates that rarely did any homework are still living in that same town or the same county, working nearly the same job that they got straight out of high school and for not much more than starting pay. The ones that are successful either inherited a large farm or went back and learn a skill that paid a living wage. Today the opportunities for young people in small towns are even more limited than back when we were starting out. I'd rather see today's young people work at learning a skill while they are still in school than to have them wake up at 30 in a dead end job and too many responsibilities to be able to start over or go to back to school.
 
Those are the original tires, do you think the bike might have been made here in Canada? It's not handy or I'd check it right now but I will find out, should be labelled somewhere on the bike. I can't imagine the Brits using Canuck-made rubber in the early 70's somehow.
 
I used to travel a lot for business - and I have to say one of THE most depressing things about traveling around this country over the past 30 years or so is to watch it become slowly and COMPLETELY homogenized.

Even forgetting who makes the products and all the profit for a moment - just the fact that everything is so cookie cutter is alarming.

It used to be that I'd love to travel to a new place around christmas because I'd probably be able to find some unique gifts for family members. Something nobody's seen before. Nothing crazy just something a little different and unusual.

But as the years went on - I noticed more and more familiar stores, no matter where I went.

It's to the point now where you can go across the country to any retail area and feel like you're back home - the stores are EXACTLY the same - all of them - the fast food places, the retail stores, hardware stores, book stores - they're all identical.

You can't find anything unique. Some of the store names may differ slightly, but they're still the same thing, carrying the same products.

Christmas shopping has turned into a standardized list for different age groups - you could print a list off the computer of what every child in america wants. There's only about 10 items on it, and it's the same for all of them.

That list continues to get shorter because if it doesn't fit in an Iphone, nobody really wants it.

Eventually one store - like Walmart - will just carry pre-boxed christmas gift selections. You'll go to the store - but a box set for 16 year olds, and one for 14 year olds, one more Wife assortment, and you'll be done. They'll open it up and get all 10 gifts off the standard list.

That's where we're headed.

Then, why bother having different stores selling the same thing? Just one super store is all we need for our non-iphone-necessities.

And - what the heck, might as well have the government run it so we're all treated fairly.

And by fairly I mean prices will be adjusted according to your income. Make 100 grand a year and your milk costs $15.00. 30 grand and it's only 2. Fair is fair.

Sounds crazy - but I honestly don't think we're all that far away from this.
 
And with the death of the 160 acres farms the population to support those small towns is gone too. Think about it, instead of 4 family farms on each section with a wife and 4 kids (or 24 people per square mile) you now have 1 farm per section (or less - sometimes a lot less) with a 1 or 2 children at the most (if any). You wipe out over 80% of a town's supporting population and see what's left. Even if Wal-Mart had never been invented the down towns would still be empty.
 
I bought a Raliegh single speed 'retro" style bike 8 yrs ago. just like one I had as my first bike back in 1962 for styling. Very easy riding and pedaling bike. Better than old ones as it is all aluminum. Stronger and a lot lighter than back then. Bike was still made in UK ! Love it and will last forever. Wide whites and double spring seat and I even put a cup holder on it along with mirrors since neck surgery prohibits looking backwards for traffic. You won't find one of these at Wally World. Heck, they would probably use plastic throw-a-way chains on them if'n they thought they could get away with it. 10& 12& 20 speeds and less than half work after 1st year. Give me a reliable old coaster brake and handlebars up where they belong. Nobody "races" these things anyway. Does anyone drive a dragster around just to look cool?
 
FB, Walmart wouldn't be a factor if people didn't go there. Stores would offer mostly American made products if cheapskates hadn't bought all the Asian, Indian, etc. junk to save a penny. The rice-grinder cars, trucks, and tractors wouldn't be killing really good American jobs if people weren't buying them, and don't give me that "nobody makes a small tractor in the US," because if you'd have kept on buying them they'd have kept on making them. Like someone else on this post said, if people weren't so concerned about saving a nickel for themselves while they flushed future generation's livelihoods down the toilet, there'd be better prospects for our kids and grandkids. gm (rant over)
 
(quoted from post at 10:13:24 09/25/15) And with the death of the 160 acres farms the population to support those small towns is gone too. Think about it, instead of 4 family farms on each section with a wife and 4 kids (or 24 people per square mile) you now have 1 farm per section (or less - sometimes a lot less) with a 1 or 2 children at the most (if any). You wipe out over 80% of a town's supporting population and see what's left. Even if Wal-Mart had never been invented the down towns would still be empty.
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I pointed this out in a thread a week or so back. The human race has been a victim of our own success. Our medicine got better so people started living longer and required more medicine to stay healthy until they pass.

Technology in the ag industry got so good that one guy can row crop section[b:9208f96c60]S[/b:9208f96c60] by himself other than needing a few part time machine operators that don't need to really know what they're doing. Livestock production has almost all been consolidated into confinements where the water, food, climate are all controlled by a computer. Just need a couple low skilled workers to help load animals up in semis to be hauled off to the industrial packing company where all the jobs are low skilled (many migrant), low pay jobs. Diary farms with 20-80 head are all but gone unless they fill a niche (organic). The diary processors have all been consolidated into one big dairy to cover half the state. Prairie Farms sets the price. The big dairy around here has several thousand head from what I understand and the milking is all done with minimal human interaction.

Same goes with a lot of industry and manufacturing jobs. We've automated almost everything from welding to painting and even a lot of assembly. What used to take 10-20 (or more) people can now be done with one guy programming a computer. We've outsourced all the "low-skill" jobs we can to the far east and in the process taught them HOW to design, test, and manufacture what used to be durable goods. They quality coming from the east has improved greatly and a lot of the wealth that was created by technological advances went to CEOs and executives and to foreign nations.

I don't see it stopping until the worker in China gets paid the equivalent as the worker in Germany, US or anywhere else in the world. Every free trade agreement only decreases the value of the American worker and puts more money in the pockets of the wealthy oligarchs. They know just how much to spoon feed to keep from a revolution.
 
FYI, some of the recent stock market softness was due to the Chinese economy slowing (or maturing?) from double digit growth to a more sustainable 7 percent. Wages in China are rising fast and are already near 1/4 of the average buying power of a US worker. Some Chinese companies are starting to look at central Africa for lower cost unskilled labor.

Yeah, it a world economy.
 
(quoted from post at 11:06:06 09/25/15) FYI, some of the recent stock market softness was due to the Chinese economy slowing (or maturing?) from double digit growth to a more sustainable 7 percent. Wages in China are rising fast and are already near 1/4 of the average buying power of a US worker. Some Chinese companies are starting to look at central Africa for lower cost unskilled labor.

Yeah, it a world economy.
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That's the only place left. The problem with central Africa is it's politically unstable.
 
My area is just the opposite back in the 1960's we were way out in the 'sticks' now my place and the farm next to me is surrounded by subdivisions and farmettes,within 10 miles
there are two Walmarts,2 Tractor Supply stores,2 Lowes,at least 20 gas stations and probably close to 75 places to eat,an indoor mall,and strip malls.Jobs at retail places are easy to get but the good factory type jobs are way down.Plus a lot of Gov't employment here.I liked it better the way it used to be but there are advantages too like
a wide variety of medical services,doctors and two large hospitals within 15 miles.
 
I believe everyone is all around right on the comments here. My view of it as a younger fellow is that corporations are greedy, jobs go overseas to make more profit, less jobs here, especially in rural areas. Kids move out of rural areas to find a job that can kind of support them once 25% of their income leaves immediately for taxes to pay for the 50% of people that don't work. You won't likely find a job that will allow them to do that in a rural area, and, with the high tax burden they have to pay into, they most can't afford to buy better made things from the USA, whether they want to or not. They still have to be able to pay their bills and survive, which maybe they could if taxes were lower, which they might be if more people worked. Which they might if they wanted to, and more jobs hadn't gone overseas. It's a vicious cycle. Just my thoughts on it, take it how you will.

Ross
 
JD Seller,
I know what you mean about buying Chinese JUNK. However sometimes that's all there is. Instead of finding a 30 amp switch, use a toggle switch to control a relay. Cars today are full of relays that can handle more than 30 amps, so there isn't a real need for a 30 amp toggle when you can use a relay and a small toggle to handle the large currents.

Ask yourself, why has industries moved out to the US? Why have the downtown’s moved to shopping malls out of town? I call it the law of untended consequences. Laws are passed and owners find a way around the laws to make more money. If they didn't they would go out of business.

Raise property taxes and business will move out of the city. Organized labor thinks they have owners by the short hairs, owners move. Sometimes to another town, sometimes out of country. There are a lot of empty lots in town where factories once were, no longer. Jobs are gone along with the taxes.

Too many actions have lead to too many untended consequences.
 
I get better service at walmart and every other big box store than I ever got from any mom and pop store.Did you ever try to return something to a mom and pop store? Sorry, me don't make exchanges or refund money. We don't take credit cards and close on sundays. Good old days my a$$.
 
More bad by far than good since I was a kid. The area peaked around 1980 in terms of good jobs with good benefits. I was still in high school at the time. The guidance counselors were not terrible but I don't think they really did much to steer a kid to where they needed to be post-public school.

There are fewer businesses operating and this has put increased pressure on the young to have to move away from family once public school is complete. Used to be at least 8 farm machinery dealers in the county in the 1960's and most are long gone. Vegetables and canning factories left in the 1960's. Area wide there are fewer car dealers but reasonable access to the big names. Retail has grown minimally as main street has been replaced by Wally World and a factory outlet mall. The net effect is more money is shipped out of the area versus mom and pop spending their profits at the auto dealer. 3000 dollar and under car lots probably see far more business than new auto dealerships. Teaching school is probably the best career outside of being a lawyer here but be aware if you are not connected you had better plan on your job being in the big city school district complete with apathetic kids and parents.

Just not much to be excited about anymore never mind grain and milk being down and looking to stay that way. I think the system is broken as it is but what to do about it is anybody's guess. I consider myself a capitalist but that system works best when there is a sense of honesty and fair play employed. We have not seen much of either in the last 20-30 years.
 
I keep thinking of zoning. In the city I grew up close to, if you wanted to compete with mom and pop you couldn't: "This area already has it's quota of (whatever) stores." Like taxi permits. It simply couldn't be done. Ma and Pa knew this and figured they had guaranteed captive purchasers for life. And when Walmart, etc. came along and set up out in the middle of nowhere where they could get planning permission, ma and pa didn't care because they had a comfortable bank account and retired selling their outfit to a well financed foreigner who lived upstairs and had his whole family working for him for next to nothing. Something else to be grateful to the govamint for.
 
(quoted from post at 11:23:21 09/25/15) I believe everyone is all around right on the comments here. My view of it as a younger fellow is that corporations are greedy, jobs go overseas to make more profit, less jobs here, especially in rural areas.
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It's not really the corporation, it's just piece of paper, it can't really be greedy but it's insane what CEOs and exec get paid. Caterpillar CEO Doug Oberhelman makes $17,000,000 per year. The last 4 quarters the combined [b:8a9660fe82]PROFIT[/b:8a9660fe82] was $38,000,000,000 so what do they do, fire another 10,000 people to save $48,000,000,000 per year.

The greed is in the hedge funds, money managers, investment banks. They want hefty returns on investing YOUR money and give you the crumbs (look at your 401K statements). They'll move money if a company is not continuing to GROW. Even it it's wildly profitable if you aren't MORE profitable quarter after quarter after quarter.

You know what the two things that continue to grow regardless of their host or the environment? The economy and cancer.

Eventually the capitalist economy based on consumption will outgrow this planet. Nothing outgrows it's host and can survive without it.
 
These discussions are some of the most interesting.

The problem is complex.

Wal-Mart gets a lot of blame for small town demise but the demise started long before Wal-Mart came to the scene and many of the small town wounds are self-inflicted. Let me also say that I am _not_ a fan of Wal-Mart and go out of my way to avoid shopping there.

Let's look at the town square.
The local store fronts in this area really don't pay any better than Wal-Mart does yet their prices are substantially higher. If the employees that work in the town square can not afford to buy in the stores where they work then right off the bat we have a structural economic problem. I'm not a fan of the government setting wages but if you don't pay your people then they can't participate in the economy. Not all business owners have a new Cadillac parked in front of their gated brick house but there are a few like that.
Are the stores open when people have time to shop? A good while back an older lady opened a boutique type shop to sell expensive touristy crap. She was complaining about how business was slow. Her hours? 9-5 Mon through Fri. When do the tourists come through town? Mainly on the weekends. There's your sign!
When is Wal-Mart most crowded? During the evenings and on weekends when people are off work.
Can you even start? Some local governments have so much red tape that it's nigh impossible to start. The town square buildings may be priceless monuments that are not allowed to be modified in any way and must look exactly the way they did 100 years ago. Oh and because of their immense value you will pay immense property taxes so the the city can continue to live beyond its means.

Who do you support? The local auto parts store has a lot of knowledge but they now sell mostly Chinese and imported parts. I suspect they don't get much of a deal on their wholsale pricing. One example: I needed a roller bearing and they had the china one. If I wanted the domestic one they had to order it and it would cost more than double. The chain store in the big town had Timken domestic for not much more than the China one at the local guy. Do I support the local guy or the American manufacturer? Unfortunately I don't have enough income to pay double on everything I buy.

Who gets it right? We have a local hardware store that is affiliated with True Value. They have an incredible selection of stuff in there. Everything from coffee makers to guns to nuts and bolts and garden seeds. Their prices are usually equal and frequently less than big box and no trouble whatsoever getting someone to help you. I patronize them as often as possible. We are also blessed with a welding shop/farm supply store and by farm supplies I mean hardware. Need a big piece of Acme thread? got it! Odd ball hydraulic adapter? got it! Clockwise shredder blades? On the shelf! They get a lot of my business too.

As for grocery stores there are a couple local options. I hope you like canned food and cheap frozen pizzas though. If you are into baking or cooking you have to go to the city for supplies (actually the hardware store has jars and lids). Our big grocery chain is HEB. They have every kind of spice, seasoning and cooking ingredient, in bulk. They also have every kind of concoction and ingredient for making homeopathic remedies if you're into that sort of thing. Their store brands are top notch.

As for young people leaving a big part of the problem, ironically, is high cost of living in some of these small towns. I've watched numerous old houses sit empty for year after year with a real estate sign in the yard because they are way over priced. You check the listings with the local realtor and find that all the houses are way overpriced. In order to afford the "neat" old house (which is uninsulated, drafty and needs a new roof) you will have to have both husband and wife working jobs in the big city. Not all the old towns are like that but the ones that have any kind of name recognition usually are. Young people have to choose to either live with their parents or move somewhere else.
 
I'm seeing more and more stuff made in India and Vietnam. The average annual income in Vietnam (which admittedly has a large number of subsistence farmers) is something like $250 US dollars per year.
 
You make a lot of good points but the big problem with the big box stores is you are sending far more money out of the local economy versus spending it on main street. I'll grant you that it is unavoidable in some instances but I know I can always do as well if not better buying from the regional grocery chain versus Wally World even if I have to drive a couple more miles to do so. At least the couple extra bucks in gas will pay a local salary and the regional grocery will need high paying local accountants and warehouse supervisors who will in turn spend their salary locally. Enough money sent to the Walton's in Arkansas already.
 
Good observations. 60 or 70 years ago it was "How good is our company? How good is our product?" Now it's "How much is our stock worth TODAY?"
The focus seems to be maximizing shareholder profits over all other considerations. I've seen it first-hand when I worked for a big corporation. Customer service was far down on the priority list. Decisions were made solely with spreadsheets and accountants.

I am on the city council for our tiny town. As such, I get a magazine in the mail from the Texas Municipal League. All it talks about is growth, growth, growth. Your city is a brand name and you're supposed to grow and grow and spend more and more. They never talk about why we should grow or ask what is sustainable. I never see an article that says, "Hey, let's give the citizens a break and spend less tax money" or "Maybe you don't really need that big new fancy building afterall". Austin did the grow, grow, grow thing and now it's a horrible mess.
 
What you're saying is true. HEB is at least headquartered in Texas and their stores are all in Texas (I think). That's my excuse anyway.
Like I said, I avoid Wally World like the plague.

I do shop at the local groceries sometimes for staples: milk, bread etc. And they are a little bit closer. I'd rather save my time than save a nickel. I wish they could get better quality brands from their distributor.
 
Vietnam is predicted to have a larger population than all of Russia in the next 20 years. Hold those two maps next to each other for comparison.
 
And you are dealing with a population that has yet to invent the wheel (yet knows how to use an AK47).
 
Welcome to the United States of the offended. If your a hard working white male your basically screwed to the wall. But you cant say that cause it might offend somebody. They dumbed down the young kids so bad they aint gonna work. Theres plenty of work they just dont want to do it. The only thing the United States can do is prostitution and cut hair. And if that offends anyone your part of the problem.

Thats why we get everything from china
 
I agree with most of your points. Cities and areas used to have personalities. No more.

Bet I could drop most people into a suburb of any city in America, and if there were no locational signs they could not tell if they were in California or New York or Dallas. Sadly the local personality of places is gone.
 
JD, The pendulum swings and the consequences are often a surprise. We have seen major changes in our lifetimes due to subtle and slow adjustments, that I don't think our leaders envisioned or understood.

Here are some examples. Back in the '50's the unions were very strong. Every night on the news some company was on strike. The unions overplayed their hand, and companies started going off shore. Companies convinced govt. to lower trade barriers. The trend continued and the companies overplayed their hand. 65,000 factories closed in America.
Union membership is at very low levels, but the companies also lost millions of potential customers due to income level reductions.

Everybody lost. Sure t-shirts are cheaper and electronics are almost free, but although the factories are gone, the people are still here. The people that used to work in those little small town factories have no real option. There are no jobs in the cities for their skills and they don't have the money to pick and move if they could. And the products those companies now make offshore?
Well there are many fewer hefty manufacturing paychecks in America to buy that imported stuff they ship back to home with American brand names.

One consequence is pretty obvious, everyone's taxes are higher, and our standard of living is stagnant(at best) , or maybe declining a little.

I have traveled the world for business and frankly I think the leaders of other nations are more careful to consider the long term consequences of the subtle changes they approve.
 
Sure wish people would stop bashing Walmamr. My friends and neighbors work at Walmart and shopping there supports THEM. Mom and pop lost out on failure to compete, puree and simpole If they could not compete they deserve to close and go to work at Walmart.

As to China vs. USA, if China stuff is junk (and I agree, most is) it is not because it is from China, it is because the company that specified it ordered it as junk. If the specs are lacking then it would be junk if it came from a USA factory. In fact, I have learned to avoid some products made in USA because they are now junk worse than Chinese. Some companies think if they make something in USA they can sell more based on that so they manufacture junk. Some galvanized plumbing fittings are an example.

For some of the junk you can blame the worst enemy we have, the US government. The EPA ruined manufacturing here before the economics did. Lead removal, for example.
 
I live near a town in Iowa with a population of 4000. It's the county seat, there is hardly anything on the town square but bail bondsmen and county offices.the courthouse is mostly courtrooms and that's the reason there are county offices in some of the store fronts. We are only 20 miles from Des Moines and that is part of the problem. I started seeing the decline of the town square in the late sixtys and early seventys when the malls started opening in Des Moines. People don't think as much about driving a distance to save a dollar as they did years ago. That's why you can't find a 5 year old used car or truck that doesn't have at least 100,000 miles on it!
 
(quoted from post at 15:09:45 09/25/15) The EPA ruined manufacturing here before the economics did. Lead removal, for example.
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Be glad you don't have to breath the air here (Bejing).

mvphoto28218.jpg
 

I remember the local stores... And part shops etc.. And I remember paying full list price. In the little town the store owners were rich and everyone else was poor. Hardware stores charged a fortune for everything.

Then along came the box stores who cut their profit margin from 30% to 5% or less. Yes the mom and pop's died out and I say good riddance. Wall Mart sells the same brands as the private stores. Home depot sells the same lumber. Only because of volume,, their margins only need to be tiny. Modern large grocery chains operate on a 2% profit margin in the good Ole US of A. This astronomically cheap compared to the 30 to 50% margins that mom and pop's used. You can go back if you wish, but I will stay right here. Walmart pays their employees MORE than the mom and pop's every did, no matter what the abundant press tells you. All of mom and pop's either paid minimum wage or hired high school kids, part time, for even less. And now thanks to external_link care, the employers have to pay medical for full time employees.... Lets see mom and pop stores do that.

The good ole days were not good.
 
(quoted from post at 10:37:25 09/25/15) I just watched a linked video over on tails. Nice Hot rod taking off. Driving out of town are the town square. What really caught my eye was the empty building windows. It is not just that town either. All across the country the main streets of most towns, large and small, are disserted. You have to go to the edge of towns to where the SUPER Walmarts are and other strip malls to find many business. I can remember being able to buy EVERYTHING you needed for daily life right in my town. You might have to go to Dubuque for a dress suit but everything else you could buy right here. Also 95% of the time it was a business that was owned by the same person that was waiting on you or 100% locally owned. Now it is almost all chains that some Corporation own ten states a way.

YEs I can BUY Chinese JUNK cheaper but you have a hard time finding quality good anymore. An example: I needed a good 30 amp 12 volt toggle switch. I wanted and US made one as the Chinese ones would not last more than a few weeks. I was not able to find a US made switch. I found US companies selling switches but they where imported as well.

The everyday things we need to live are too many times 100% imported now. So where are the young folks today going to work in the future???? Government mandated minimum wage jobs?????

I was able to start working for PAY at 14 years old in a feed mill. I bagged feed every evening form 3 PM top 9 PM and all day Sat. That income allowed me to help my family out. Then later get married and provide for myself an my bride. Now you can not hardly hire anyone under 18 for any type of job around machinery. Direct farm labor is the one place and that is getting more regulated.

It really saddens me. There is a much less vibrant community because of these social changes.

PS: My wife is visiting her Mother. There is not a grocery store within 30 miles. This is not in the middle of now where either. There are four towns that all used to have stores until the last few years. These are all towns with populations of over 1000. So she need some milk and eggs for cooking. Had to buy it at the gas station ore drive forty miles. Her home town had TWO stores until 2000 and the last one closed last year. The "NEW" four lane highway was finished ten years ago. So the locals all have flocked to the Walmart/Aldies stores fifty miles away. So the local store was slowly choked out so they can same ten cents on a can of corn/ gallon of milk. So there went some more local jobs and business owners.
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You sound like you are at least a third of the way through a fairly large bottle.
 
I travel a lot and I see a lot of what you are talking about. The prosperity of a town really seems to be regional. Most towns I go through in texas are pretty much dead downtown. Texas has a lot of loops around their towns. That's where the business's are all going. In Minnesota a lot of times there are only bars downtown but for the most part the towns are very much alive compared to Texas. When I lived in Minnesota me and the wife always liked to travel through Hutchinson, MN. Driving through we noticed that it is a bustling booming town. Every downtown storefront is full. And probably high priced as well. The one thing I noticed in that town is the Main Street is still the " Main Street". No loops, no bypasses
 
My father-in-law said 50 years ago that when you bought a tractor the money left the area and went back east. Where, when you farmed with horses you went to your neighbors and bought a horse or a team and the money stayed here.
 
My last two tire purchases, instead of buying them by price, I bought from a local mom-and-pop store. It's actually owned by a neighbor who is in his 20s.
On the first purchase, I needed a set of four tires. I needed two of them real bad and he only had two of them that day, but he told me that the next two would come in the following week. So I had him put the two tires on and then went back next week for the other two. Except they could no longer get that brand and he put the next two tires on....with a different brand....without informing me of that information first.
Okay...I guess that could happen. I guess there are worst things in the world than two different brands of tires on the same vehicle.
On the next set, he again didn't have the size that I needed, but he could again get them in a week. He also told me that he had a new policy that if the tires would be paid for that day (instead of just "charging them"), he would give a good cash discount, again, only if paid for that day. The next week the tires came in, I had them installed and they were paid for them that night. Except the cash policy was no longer in effect and there was no cash discount applied to anything. BTW, these tires were quite a big higher than if I'd shopped around.
Before I get a sermon about buying (or NOT buying) local, the extra money that was spent on my tires came out of my wallet, not yours. My next tire purchase will be at a place that gives me a good deal and I'll leave it at that.
 
I think you completely missed what I said. Basically, I think having choice is a good thing. Being able to price things out. Being able to order off the internet. A lot of the local store owners didn't care about you much more than Walmart does. They were in it for the money, not to be able to provide you with food and clothing while making a reasonable profit. I don't have the first thing against a person being able to make a living for themselves, or a business making a profit off my money. I do however, have a problem with a business making huge profits because they think they're better than everyone else in the town, and they deserve to make a large profit. I never stated that I liked people buying overseas crap, just the opposite, I don't understand why people do it. China, especially now, isn't an incredibly cheap place to produce crap, when compared to the US. For 10% more, you can normally buy US made goods over Chinese crap
 
That reminds me of my first visit to downtown Chicago back in 1966. It was a sunny day out in the suburbs, but smoggy downtown.
 
SS55 I took all college prep type classes: Algebra, Physics, Geometry, Biology, and etc. I had a 93 average for my four years of high school. I did very little home work because I WORKED in school. If the class was 45 minutes long the teacher usually quit 10-15 minutes before the next class. So I hit the books hard right there in class. Lunch I packed and eat while setting in the library doing school work. I did not fool around playing ball or chasing girls. I worked school like a job and then worked a real job afterwards. Nothing unusual about it. Most people did it that way before sports and extra curricular activates took over the schools.
 
(quoted from post at 16:15:47 09/25/15) I think you completely missed what I said. Basically, I think having choice is a good thing. Being able to price things out. Being able to order off the internet. A lot of the local store owners didn't care about you much more than Walmart does. They were in it for the money, not to be able to provide you with food and clothing while making a reasonable profit. I don't have the first thing against a person being able to make a living for themselves, or a business making a profit off my money. I do however, have a problem with a business making huge profits because they think they're better than everyone else in the town, and they deserve to make a large profit. I never stated that I liked people buying overseas crap, just the opposite, I don't understand why people do it. China, especially now, isn't an incredibly cheap place to produce crap, when compared to the US. For 10% more, you can normally buy US made goods over Chinese crap
Click to expand...

Not to be unfriendly, but Canadians really are as a group, doing better than the US folks. One reason is jobs. In Canada, I cannot simply move there and take a job. Canadian companies have to hire Canadians first, and as I understand it, apply to the province to hire a non citizen. In the US, companies are not required to give preference to citizens. And the fines for ignoring our laws have always been minimal.
 
Take an economics course. People are tools, when business increases, you need more. When business slows down, you need less. Simple economics. The company makes no promises, and pays you fairly. They are not your parents. I know it sounds cruel, but its a fact of life. And the board of director sets goals for the ceo who base pay is set very low, and he has to make the goals to get the rest of his performanced based pay. Knowing how to grow is important, but knowing how to ride out a slow down is more important.

Today ceo's have to figure out how to either increase profits, or decrease cost by 15% every year just to stay even in business. If you can do that every year, then you too can get the big bucks. They work 15 hour days 7 days a week. They even work while on vacation. Business has only one goal, to make a profit legally. Employees are not adopted, they are simply a tool to make money. Only a fool thinks a business should keep employees it does not need, a jobless fool. Very few make it to ceo and they showed their skill set on the way up in a publicly run company. Family companies are different, but still to last long must do the same. Companies must also continue to change the business model as what you did 20 years ago will not be the model tomorrow. Ie kodak, HP, IBM, DEC, tandum, Compaq, Radio Shack, AT&T and mom and pops. Even agriculture has changed, so the old way does not work in todays world.
 
The sameness of one area to another is the secret of success for many companies - especially in the food industry. McDonald's for example. One of their reasons for such overwhelming success is that the food is THE SAME whether you get it in Connecticut, Florida, or Texas. People know what to expect when they go into a Mickey D restaurant. In the old days, you went into a greasy spoon diner and took your chances that the food would even be fit for a hog. I do remember some of that. Same thing with stores. Even travelers come to expect some level of uniformity to find what they need or want. Same goes for WalMart. If you know what you will find in a WalMart store, regardless of location, you will be more likely to shop there for the familiarity of it.
 
I wish the general store my Grandpa owned 1930 to 1965 was still viable. I envy the way of life that revolved around the store and the way my Dad remembered it. But, it was not better than today, nor will today be better than tomorrow, only different. Change is the constant. Live long, and prosper, grasshopper...
 
There is no longer a reason for many of those towns, communities and businesses to exist, they were replaced by more efficient and profitable entities. A major reason for the decline of US manufacturing and the resultant loss of jobs is unionization and the fact that the weak hands that are incapable of supporting themselves without a union or the government to haul their water for them are allowed to vote.
 
When growing up we went downtown on a Saturday. Could roam around all day, see a movie, hit the sporting goods stores eat great greasy burgers it's what we did. This was the 60's I'm now 62. We were dropped off by a parent picked up later by another. not a concern since everyone knew someone and all the stores names were someone in the community. I'm glad I was able to experience growing up in such an era. Small town living back in the day
 
Such a joy having someone such as "true son " to add to our forum. Thanks for your positive input on a thread many of us enjoy as things long remembered from our past. Now Sir please frequent another forum
 
my wife worked for a local dept store for several years tha basically put himself out of business - his pricing policy policy was twice the invoice plus the frieght- go in and if you where a returning customer you might get a 10 or 15& dicount, he never tried to compete. looking back they had ne of the big houses and fancier cars in town.
 

As was stated above,the "junk" brought in from China was and is speced. as such by a company right here in the USA.That company got what they wanted and the consumer got just what was paid for.As for Walmart:I'd say only 30% to 40% of what they sell is from China(much is from a country other than China) and it's not all "junk".
 
hay you are so rite ,, and so many others ,, true son , is pointing to the fact that no one wants to accept blame,,. but we are all at fault in some way ,. I could care less if the EPA , dept of energy were dissolved dept of welfare and education totally rebooted , a-t-firearms needs reworkt too ./// our towns corner grocery /hdw store burned to the ground , just a few days into this new century.. you could get anything there ,, and if the poor guy could collect all the debt ,, he would be wealthiest man for miles around ,.. from talking with liberty ky folx , it was same way in their neighborhood ,when I was a boy in the 60s , not everyone had a phone, but the store did , and was happy and quick to dispatch messengers throughout the area when a need or emergency arose ..
 
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